Rising energy costs

[Mark T Jones]

Well i can't believe I am going to mention this but did not President Trump warn Europe "don't buy all your energy from Russia" what did we do ........ suckered into the come buy from me Im your friend cheap oil and gas here . buy buy buy, and then he starts to turn the tap off and our government look surprised. Putin started on his quest to cause major problems to our economies way before he invaded Ukraine. The fact that his plan as subsequently on some levels backfired he has still caused major global economic issues.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing. But yes, I have peen wondering how the f**k Europe allowed itself to be reliant on a notoriously flakey supply source.

 

[NickGrogan]

Well, I don't much care to play semantics, but no, it doesn't. The extraction companies will still make more money with a 50% tax than they would have done had the price of oil and gas not skyrocketed. That applies to almost no one else.

But by all means, if any company is making a "windfall", tax them. Amazon should have been taxed on the windfalls they made during the Covid lockdowns.

Every company that benefited from Covid loans or furlough has had a windfall.

Every company that has been able to borrow at close to 0% for years has had a windfall.

If Amazon is taxed for Covid, then why not Tesco and Sainsburys? Why not my local takeaway?

A lot of people seem very keen for "others" to pay more tax, but not so keen for themselves.

 

[NickGrogan]

Hindsight is a wonderful thing. But yes, I have peen wondering how the f**k Europe allowed itself to be reliant on a notoriously flakey supply source.

It was cheap.

 

[Mark T Jones]

A lot of people seem very keen for "others" to pay more tax, but not so keen for themselves.

Pretty much sums it up!

 

[japancool]

Every company that benefited from Covid loans or furlough has had a windfall.

No, not really.

If Amazon is taxed for Covid, then why not Tesco and Sainsburys? Why not my local takeaway?

If Tesco and Sainsburys are making excess profits due to exceptional circumstances, why not? I doubt your takeaway is.

A lot of people seem very keen for "others" to pay more tax, but not so keen for themselves.

Most people aren't making a windfall.

 

[japancool]

Pretty much sums it up!

That's a very easy accusation to make, but one that hardly bears up to scrutiny when half the country is facing being unable to pay for their fuel. It's not unreasonable to ask those who benefit disproportionally to shoulder more of the burden.

If those who can afford it don't pay, then those who can't afford it will.

 

[NickGrogan]

No, not really.



If Tesco and Sainsburys are making excess profits due to exceptional circumstances, why not? I doubt your takeaway is.



Most people aren't making a windfall.

So being given an ultra low-interest loan with almost no checks and no personal guarantee isn't a windfall?

My local takeaway has benefited from all the restaurants that they used to compete with being forced to close for months and months. Not a windfall?

Businesses have benefitted from the increased spending money created by people being on furlough and then working from home has created. Not a windfall?

 

[japancool]

So being given an ultra low-interest loan with almost no checks and no personal guarantee isn't a windfall?

No. It still has to be paid back. And it hardly makes up for loss of earnings from lockdowns, does it?

My local takeaway has benefited from all the restaurants that they used to compete with being forced to close for months and months. Not a windfall?

No. Certainly not when their energy bills have quadrupled. And many are finding their takings FALLING, not rising.

Businesses have benefitted from the increased spending money created by people being on furlough and then working from home has created. Not a windfall?

Increased spending money? How's that? What evidence do you have for that? People on furlough had LESS money. And any supposed savings are being wiped out by inflation, because the bulk of that "extra" money is going to... oh yes, the energy companies.

So no.

You want to play this silly reductio ad absurdum game, go right ahead on your own.

 

[Newchodge]

So being given an ultra low-interest loan with almost no checks and no personal guarantee isn't a windfall?

My local takeaway has benefited from all the restaurants that they used to compete with being forced to close for months and months. Not a windfall?

Businesses have benefitted from the increased spending money created by people being on furlough and then working from home has created. Not a windfall?

Windfall refers to profit, not turnover or availability of a loan.

 

[NickGrogan]

No. It still has to be paid back. And it hardly makes up for loss of earnings from lockdowns, does it?



No. Certainly not when their energy bills have quadrupled. And many are finding their takings FALLING, not rising.



Increased spending money? How's that? What evidence do you have for that? People on furlough had LESS money. And any supposed savings are being wiped out by inflation, because the bulk of that "extra" money is going to... oh yes, the energy companies.

So no.

You want to play this silly reductio ad absurdum game, go right ahead on your own.

Just Eat Takeaway sales soar 54% in 2020 as pandemic shifts eating habits

However, operating losses rose to €107m from €78m a year before

www.theguardian.com

Perhaps you can explain why personal savings rates were at record levels whilst people were on furlough?

Households (S.14): Households' saving ratio (per cent): Current price: £m: SA - Office for National Statistics

 

[IanSuth]

Just Eat Takeaway sales soar 54% in 2020 as pandemic shifts eating habits

However, operating losses rose to €107m from €78m a year before

www.theguardian.com

Perhaps you can explain why personal savings rates were at record levels whilst people were on furlough?

Households (S.14): Households' saving ratio (per cent): Current price: £m: SA - Office for National Statistics

Because we live in a very divided society

Those with money likely continued to have it and were able to save more whilst working from home even f they were on 80% of pre tax earnings (which is more than 80% net). They in normal times would have had greater discretionary spending , that was halted so they saved more

Those without money were scraping by, they lost a greater proportion of their NET earnings when it was reduced to 80% and as they usually had little discretionary spend they had less to cut back on and subsequently less to save or even fell into deficit

As those with money have more above 0 to save than those without have below the average change in savings will be a positive number

For example as well think, if you live in a bedsit/small flat with little food storage (as in no big freezer) you couldnt do a once a fortnight Tesco delivery so it was a choice of takeaways or corner shop

 

[Not a subway]

Havin 10 minutes to spare I thought I would check.

Job seekers UK £77 week
Surgeon DRC £207 week. I would rather be a surgeon in the Congo, based on salary. I would be making serious enquiries how I could come and work in the UK for more money.

I think the point went right over your head.

Making less than £100 in the UK is better than triple that in any developing nation.

For most people a weekly shop is within 20 minutes walking distance. Buy anything you want.

Free health care, free education, I could go on.

 

[Not a subway]

It will probably lead to more small businesses giving up offices and working from home.

How long before energy companies target work from home businesses and stipulate that they have to have business contracts rather than domestic?

Working from home is not an option for coffee shops, bakeries, butchers etc.

 

[UKSBD]

Working from home is not an option for coffee shops, bakeries, butchers etc.

I was replying to

"last week I was talking to someone on a business park where his power costs far out weigh the monthly rent, the figures were just eye watering. Surely by the end of this summer we are going to see a lot of people (business) just giving up as the costs just cannot be passed onto the customer."

 

[Not a subway]

For example as well think, if you live in a bedsit/small flat with little food storage (as in no big freezer) you couldnt do a once a fortnight Tesco delivery so it was a choice of takeaways or corner shop.

I'm lucky that I have no mortgage and am able to scrape by with the basics. I feel for all those who have mortgages and children.
That said, I know people who live in really large houses and have to go to food banks.

No, no. Don't give up your Audi SUV. That would be undignified.

 

[DontAsk]

Why do we import more than we can manufacture?

Because we can.

 

[DontAsk]

I watched a repeat of "Eat will for less" (sad, I know). They predicted SAVING £14k pounds by changing shipping habits. A mother and young daughter, no sign of dad. That's more than 3x our total food bill for 3 adults. A lot of people (by no means all, in not even claiming a majority but a sizeable minority at least) could afford the energy price rises if they fix their other spending habits.

 

[japancool]

Because we live in a very divided society

Those with money likely continued to have it and were able to save more whilst working from home even f they were on 80% of pre tax earnings (which is more than 80% net). They in normal times would have had greater discretionary spending , that was halted so they saved more

Those without money were scraping by, they lost a greater proportion of their NET earnings when it was reduced to 80% and as they usually had little discretionary spend they had less to cut back on and subsequently less to save or even fell into deficit

As those with money have more above 0 to save than those without have below the average change in savings will be a positive number

For example as well think, if you live in a bedsit/small flat with little food storage (as in no big freezer) you couldnt do a once a fortnight Tesco delivery so it was a choice of takeaways or corner shop

This.

From:

https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-9060/

While on the whole, household savings have risen and debt has remained at a similar level, there is evidence to suggest that some households, particularly those with low incomes, have run down savings and increased debt since the start of the pandemic.

The Office for National Statistics found that by December 2020, nearly 9 million people had to borrow more money than usual because of coronavirus.

Groups which are more likely than average to have taken on more debt since the start of the coronavirus pandemic include renters, people from minority ethnic groups, parents and carers, disabled people and those who are shielding, and young people.

And we're about to see large amounts of those savings (and borrowing) funnelled to... the energy companies.

 

[Not a subway]

And we're about to see large amounts of those savings (and borrowing) funnelled to... the energy companies.

Banks have already started to cut down overdraft credit card limits for non property owners.
I think a lot of people will struggle to borrow money. Energy companies report to credit agencies and once you miss a bill it's downhill from there.

 

[simon field]

Free health care, free education, I could go on.

This has to be a joke right?

£277 billion and £54 billion respectively. What a waste!

 

[OMGVape]

Next we’ll be told that us public have cut down our energy consumption so much because of the high prices, we are actually repairing climate change.

Hurrah, let’s keep prices this high to save the planet.

 

[NickGrogan]

Free health care, free education, I could go on

You do know they're not free, right?

 

[NickGrogan]

Next we’ll be told that us public have cut down our energy consumption so much because of the high prices, we are actually repairing climate change.

Hurrah, let’s keep prices this high to save the planet.

I wouldn't be surprised if someone says this in about 6 months' time

 

[Not a subway]

Next we’ll be told that us public have cut down our energy consumption so much because of the high prices, we are actually repairing climate change.

Hurrah, let’s keep prices this high to save the planet.

Every environmentalists wet dream.

 

[japancool]

Making less than £100 in the UK is better than triple that in any developing nation.

Have you ever lived in a developing nation?

 

[SillyBill]

Well i can't believe I am going to mention this but did not President Trump warn Europe "don't buy all your energy from Russia" what did we do ........

Don't see why it needs to be pre-faced with anything other than a statement that Trump was bang on about a lot of things, and the big things too. Foreign policy, COVID (cure worse than the disease in terms of deaths, doubt the NHS will ever recover), energy self-dependence, got a big tick from me on the all things I'd expect a leader to deliver on. But then again I am not and never have been interested in what someone tweets or whether they're nice or not, competence is more important but sadly not a valued trait these days in a liberal world. Unfortunately virtue signallers have been in power for 30 years and you couldn't get a fag paper between them, I can't distinguish between any of the major parties beyond the colour of the tie. All the same. Complete inability to get anything done, totally naïve foreign policy, painting the world to be something it is not (strongman politics to deal with the likes of Putin absent) and most notably an energy policy borrowed from a Swedish teenager. We've literally blown up coal power stations in a nation sat on coal before we've got an insurance policy of renewables in place. It is criminal when you consider the resources we have on this island (and I include wind incidentally) to be in this position.

So far as a response from government on this energy crisis. I am in two minds. There is a worrying trend of crises demanding more and more state intervention from the public and business. Covid and now this? We're going to end the decade as if we've fought two world wars, where does it stop? We're sleep walking more into a bigger and bigger state when the size of the state is already cripplingly large. I'd settle for them taking VAT down to 5% on business electricity and perhaps doing something on business rates where needed for certain sectors. And then for them to get out of the way and encourage fracking and more North Sea oil development ASAP. Because the winter of 2023 is not going to be resolved by more windmills or solar panels.

 

[japancool]

We've literally blown up coal power stations in a nation sat on coal before we've got an insurance policy of renewables in place.

Some time ago, I invested in a company that had developed a method of reducing carbon emissions from coal powered stations by 40% without needing to make any changes to the power station's technology. Sadly, it never went anywhere.

Seemed to me to be a no-brainer, a quick win, but everyone was in a rush to completely phase out coal.

 

[SillyBill]

Some time ago, I invested in a company that had developed a method of reducing carbon emissions from coal powered stations by 40% without needing to make any changes to the power station's technology. Sadly, it never went anywhere.

Seemed to me to be a no-brainer, a quick win, but everyone was in a rush to completely phase out coal.

Wouldn't surprise me. I wouldn't be so bothered about it if we didn't have to pretend that we've done anything for the planet by demolishing them. We've made (and will make) Western energy so expensive now the last remnants of manufacturing will have to go to China and India...who burn coal cheaply to produce the goods we'll then import. All the while we pat ourselves on the back because there are no coal stations in Blighty. It is simply staggering how short-sighted we've been.

The sort of technology you suggest may have been a good stop-gap while we built out renewables. But someone had the bright idea of stopping investment in nuclear (greens have lobbied hard against it), blowing up the coal stations/early retirement, vilifying the oil majors with North Sea oil activity (Shell/BP persona non grata at COP 26, not even a seat at the table), preventing fracking while we import fracked gas from America, burning wood from North America and pretending it is green and paying huge subsidies to do it...shambles.

 

[japancool]

The sort of technology you suggest may have been a good stop-gap while we built out renewables. But someone had the bright idea of stopping investment in nuclear (greens have lobbied hard against it), blowing up the coal stations/early retirement, vilifying the oil majors with North Sea oil activity (Shell/BP persona non grata at COP 26, not even a seat at the table), preventing fracking while we import fracked gas from America, burning wood from North America and pretending it is green and paying huge subsidies to do it...shambles.

Everyone wants renewables... unless it's in their back yard.

 

[Newchodge]

I watched a repeat of "Eat will for less" (sad, I know). They predicted SAVING £14k pounds by changing shipping habits. A mother and young daughter, no sign of dad. That's more than 3x our total food bill for 3 adults. A lot of people (by no means all, in not even claiming a majority but a sizeable minority at least) could afford the energy price rises if they fix their other spending habits.

You do realise they pick people for these programmes precisely because they are extremes?

 

[japancool]

Do I change my shipping habits by getting it sent to Grimsby instead of Southampton?

 

[MBE2017]

Well i can't believe I am going to mention this but did not President Trump warn Europe "don't buy all your energy from Russia" what did we do ........

Lovely piece of film on YouTube where Trump is making this speech, it switches to the German delegates all laughing at his warning, I bet they are not laughing now.

Whether his critics like to admit it or not, plenty of his predictions came true and I reckon many in the USA wait in hope he runs for the presidency next time, since sleepy drooling Joe is a complete embarrassment.

 

[WaveJumper]

Lovely piece of film on YouTube where Trump is making this speech, it switches to the German delegates all laughing at his warning, I bet they are not laughing now.

Whether his critics like to admit it or not, plenty of his predictions came true and I reckon many in the USA wait in hope he runs for the presidency next time, since sleepy drooling Joe is a complete embarrassment.

Germany the 'power house of Europe' seem to have gone very quite of late

 

[WaveJumper]

And blow me they are in news this morning:

Germany approves energy-saving measures for winter

The measures include turning down heating in public buildings as Germany tries to wean itself of Russian gas.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[MBE2017]

And blow me they are in news this morning:

Germany approves energy-saving measures for winter

The measures include turning down heating in public buildings as Germany tries to wean itself of Russian gas.

www.bbc.co.uk

To be honest, I wish our Gov was talking more about such measures, turning street lights off on main roads, reducing heating costs by lowering the building temperatures.

A large local NHS facility in my town has the heating on all the time, appears no one knows how to turn it off.

 

[japancool]

They can always burn down another government building if they need to keep warm.

 

[DontAsk]

You do realise they pick people for these programmes precisely because they are extremes?

Yeah, but I've never seen one this extreme. They would probably tell us to spend more, as our duty to support the economy, LOL

 

[IanSuth]

To be honest, I wish our Gov was talking more about such measures, turning street lights off on main roads, reducing heating costs by lowering the building temperatures.

A large local NHS facility in my town has the heating on all the time, appears no one knows how to turn it off.

Lots of the roads near us the lights go out over the early hours (midnight to 5.30am) and have done for years, phased in when they put in the LED lighting

Part night lighting scheme - Wokingham Borough Council

www.wokingham.gov.uk

Early listed date for commencement that i can quickly see is 2009

 

[OMGVape]

I watched a repeat of "Eat will for less" (sad, I know). They predicted SAVING £14k pounds by changing shipping habits....

Thats just a packet of fags and a takeaway each, per day. I know lots of people who live like that.

Recently, a guy in front of me in the co-op asked for 60 fags. I nearly fell over when the checkout said price was over 30 quid.

 

[DontAsk]

Lots of the roads near us the lights go out over the early hours (midnight to 5.30am) and have done for years, phased in when they put in the LED lighting

They started doing it in Aylesbury when I lived near there a few years ago.

But I took "main roads" to refer to trunk routes and motorways. They don't need to be lit all the time, but I haven't been on many in the wee hours recently to know what the situation is.