Rising energy costs

[bright_future]

Please don't tell me what my opinion should be.

No I'm not doing that, but I can have an opinion about your opinion, can't I?

You can always frame someone who disagrees with you as "telling me what my opinion should be", so you can always win that sh**tty game I suppose.

 

[Newchodge]

No I'm not doing that, but I can have an opinion about your opinion, can't I?

You can always frame someone who disagrees with you as "telling me what my opinion should be", so you can always win that sh**tty game I suppose.

Against someone with your powers of persuasion, my cat could win an argument.

 

[bright_future]

Against someone with your powers of persuasion, my cat could win an argument.

interesting opinion you have there where's the laughing cat emoji?)

 

[IanSuth]

I definitely won't be sobbing for students who have to live in less hot rooms!

There are intrinsic requirements for some - though I strongly suspect the NHS could make some significant energy savings without impacting on service or patient welfare.

Incidentally, this is one area that I do believe that Government intervention maty be required (always remembering that Government intervention is our money, which ha to be diverted from somewhere). BUT with a strong underlying message that the way to pay less for energy is to use less energy.

I totally agree hall rooms are overheated HOWEVER Unis have spent the last 20 years upgrading halls (and rising prices) by saying students will no longer accept accommodation like we had in the 90's and now demand better so that is why they have upgraded.

They will now struggle to justify raising prices more or reducing what you get for your money.

Personally I was the student who opted out of a basin in my room to save £10 a term in 1989 and was in a catered hall costing £1850 per year out of a grant (last year of just grants) of £2155 (Reading Uni)

Nowadays you are looking at an outer london uni charging £173.11 per week (£6602.91 per year) for self catered from a max loan of £12,667 (in London away from home), that max maintenance loan gives £6k a year or £115 a week to live off which I think is plenty as they dont need to spend as much on books now (uni library has most texts available online for free) but i reckon after food that doesnt leave a huge amount and it is a loan, even a cheap uni like Salford you are paying £141.18 for 42 weeks (£5929 for the cheap halls ) and your loan is a max of £9,706 leaving £3800 or £73 a week.

In Salford a local student house is likely cheaper but not in London

 

[fisicx]

Or….. don’t go to uni and get a job instead. Save the education for later on in life when you can afford it. Did my degree when I was 40.

 

[ecommerce84]

@bright_future - I don’t think Ukraine needed much pushing to not agree to a ceasefire.

If they’d have put their weapons down, the entirety of Ukraine would now be Russian. They have every right to defend themselves, and I’m pleased that we are providing them with weapons and training to do so, even though it’s having a huge negative effect on the lives of many in the UK and Europe.

Europes biggest mistake is it’s over reliance on Russian gas. Putin knew he had us over a barrel and he thought that would give him enough sway (along with his nukes) to basically walk in and take Ukraine.

Forget Nordstream 2, it won’t be operational for years now, if ever. We need to invest in alternative energy supplies that don’t involve Russia.

 

[Not a subway]

Again, off topic, but curious to know people's responses.

We know energy costs are going crazy, but shouldn't there also be some help out there for families that will struggle to help them try and manage their energy costs effectively?

I went to one of my family members house last week and I was astounded how much mis-use of energy there is. THey cook meals as singles, when they could put their food in the oven together, all four hobs on when they could have done it with two. Some stupid electric features in their house that they don't neen, all switches on.

And they are a pretty poor family to be honest - is anyone getting the message out there of how to manage your energy better?

I agree that people have to manage their energy more efficiently.
When I was younger I was astounded when I went to friend's houses. They would put the heating up to max and then sit about in shorts and t-shirts.
In my household, if it got a bit chilly we would put on a jumper and the heating was only put on when the temperature went below 15.
People are not as hardy as they used to be. We, in the west can not keep on consuming the way we do.
Britian has 1% of the worlds population yet consumes 4.5% of the worlds resources.
This basically means that for every £1 we have we spend £4.50.
This is a resource deficit. If Britain was cut off from the rest of the world then living standards would fall dramatically. Below WW2 standards.
The general public doesn't think along the lines of resource expenditure. They only link usage to cost.
In my opinion, going forward, the energy and food price increases are a good measure.
It might be a shock to a lot of people but it will reduce consumption and change the publics attitudes towards resources and their true cost.

 

[IanSuth]

I agree that people have to manage their energy more efficiently.
When I was younger I was astounded when I went to friend's houses. They would put the heating up to max and then sit about in shorts and t-shirts.
In my household, if it got a bit chilly we would put on a jumper and the heating was only put on when the temperature went below 15.
People are not as hardy as they used to be. We, in the west can not keep on consuming the way we do.
Britian has 1% of the worlds population yet consumes 4.5% of the worlds resources.
This basically means that for every £1 we have we spend £4.50.
This is a resource deficit. If Britain was cut off from the rest of the world then living standards would fall dramatically. Below WW2 standards.
The general public doesn't think along the lines of resource expenditure. They only link usage to cost.
In my opinion, going forward, the energy and food price increases are a good measure.
It might be a shock to a lot of people but it will reduce consumption and change the publics attitudes towards resources and their true cost.

But a lot of people have perverse ideas of when we were self sufficient.

Go ask a bunch of people when we produced enough of our own food to survive off as a country and you will I bet hear answers like 1950 or even 1970

The actual answer is c1850

We grew to the size we were on exploiting all our resources and then taking over other lands and using (stealing) theirs - the idea of the country (in the medium term so sub 50 years) being resource neutral is only possible if you include wealth emanating from the city in your sums

 

[Not a subway]

But a lot of people have perverse ideas of when we were self sufficient.

Go ask a bunch of people when we produced enough of our own food to survive off as a country and you will I bet hear answers like 1950 or even 1970

The actual answer is c1850

We grew to the size we were on exploiting all our resources and then taking over other lands and using (stealing) theirs - the idea of the country (in the medium term so sub 50 years) being resource neutral is only possible if you include wealth emanating from the city in your sums

Yes, but wealth does net equal resource generation. You have numbers in a computer. They on their own are worthless until you convert them into goods and services.
Ideally resources should allocated in terms of units of labour.
Why should some one in the west be able to afford a good lifestyle whilst with 40 hours whilst someone in the 3rd world will work twice as hard and live on subsistence wages.
If you look at our resource consumption you will see that a lot of what we consume is produced using slave or child labour.

 

[IanSuth]

Yes, but wealth does net equal resource generation. You have numbers in a computer. They on their own are worthless until you convert them into goods and services.
Ideally resources should allocated in terms of units of labour.
Why should some one in the west be able to afford a good lifestyle whilst with 40 hours whilst someone in the 3rd world will work twice as hard and live on subsistence wages.
If you look at our resource consumption you will see that a lot of what we consume is produced using slave or child labour.

I agree hence why i said in the medium term it is impossible to make the UK resource self sufficient (except by mass starvation or genocide)

 

[DontAsk]

Britian has 1% of the worlds population yet consumes 4.5% of the worlds resources.
This basically means that for every £1 we have we spend £4.50.

That doesn't follow.

 

[Not a subway]

I agree hence why i said in the medium term it is impossible to make the UK resource self sufficient (except by mass starvation or genocide)

Or, we could just use less.

 

[Not a subway]

That doesn't follow.

Maybe I'm missing something.

 

[Newchodge]

Maybe I'm missing something.

Resources does not = £

 

[DontAsk]

Maybe I'm missing something.

Yes, you are, the connection between your two assertions:

Britian has 1% of the worlds population yet consumes 4.5% of the worlds resources.
This basically means that for every £1 we have we spend £4.50.

 

[simon field]

Get your resources! All £1, today only, me missus is gonna kill me!

How many luv? Five? That’ll be a fiver ?

 

[Not a subway]

Yes, you are, the connection between your two assertions:

Extrapolate.

 

[Not a subway]

Resources does not = £

Exactly. That's why we are in debt.

 

[japancool]

Exactly. That's why we are in debt.

Sense nothing makes say you.

 

[Not a subway]

Sense nothing makes say you.

We are living beyond our means.

 

[simon field]

Who is we? I’ve managed to do loads of stuff in the last 10 years without any debt.

You living beyond yours?

 

[Old&knackered]

Sorry to be mundane...bringing the topic back to energy costs....just had my renewal (end of fixed rate:

Standing Charge: £4 per day (increase of 958%)
Day Units: £0.7899 (increase of 222%)
Night Units: £0.5315 (increase of 194%)

For me, that takes my yearly spend from £8k to £35k...

I know prices have gone up, but my big grips are:

(a) why such a big increase in the standing charge? This is meant to be the fixed price for getting the power to the property....the power lines/cables are already there...it is simple profiteering because there are no protection/caps for SME's

(b) my existing tarif is 100% renewables......there should be no effect of gas prices on my supply. The cost of the wind and sun has not increased. It is pure profiteering.

(c) I fitted 80 solar panels to my building 6 yrs ago......and get paid a Feed In Tarif of 13p per kWh.......amazinging, the price I get paid has not risen in line 'with the market'.

I spoke to a neighbour last night who works for a grain feed company: their electricity bill will go up next month from £135k pcm to £487k pcm........they are looking at mothballing plant and consulting on redundancies as they cannot pass these costs on to their customers.

SME's need better protection/some kind of cap to protect them from the worst ravages of this energy crisis.

Where is the Energy Minister? Have you heard anything from them?

 

[IanSuth]

Sorry to be mundane...bringing the topic back to energy costs....just had my renewal (end of fixed rate:

Standing Charge: £4 per day (increase of 958%)
Day Units: £0.7899 (increase of 222%)
Night Units: £0.5315 (increase of 194%)

For me, that takes my yearly spend from £8k to £35k...

I know prices have gone up, but my big grips are:

(a) why such a big increase in the standing charge? This is meant to be the fixed price for getting the power to the property....the power lines/cables are already there...it is simple profiteering because there are no protection/caps for SME's

(b) my existing tarif is 100% renewables......there should be no effect of gas prices on my supply. The cost of the wind and sun has not increased. It is pure profiteering.

(c) I fitted 80 solar panels to my building 6 yrs ago......and get paid a Feed In Tarif of 13p per kWh.......amazinging, the price I get paid has not risen in line 'with the market'.

I spoke to a neighbour last night who works for a grain feed company: their electricity bill will go up next month from £135k pcm to £487k pcm........they are looking at mothballing plant and consulting on redundancies as they cannot pass these costs on to their customers.

SME's need better protection/some kind of cap to protect them from the worst ravages of this energy crisis.

Where is the Energy Minister? Have you heard anything from them?

a) the cost of taking over the failed companies has been dumped on standing charge (and in fact on electricity which everyone has - as Ofgen has raised the standing charge price cap)

b) you may be buying renewables but the fact non renewables have gone up in price/become unavailable has raised the premium the market will pay for the energy from renewables (if people need to buy fruit and apples go up in price/become scarce people will pay more for the oranges which exist)

c) that is a contractual thing, my mum has a really old domestic solar feedin tariff with a built in escalator, she is now on 54p per unit feedin !

As for Energy minister - didnt even realise we had one, and after the last round of culling/reshuffle/resignations it is likely Larry the cat (no actually scrap that - he might have a plan)

 

[Mark T Jones]

Where is the Energy Minister? Have you heard anything from them?

At this mo0ment we don't really have a Prime Minister, so I won't be holding out for any big announcements

Personally, I'm not a huge advocate of State intervention, but I do think that it is required here - and suspect it will happen when someone takes charge

 

[IanSuth]

At this mo0ment we don't really have a Prime Minister, so I won't be holding out for any big announcements

Personally, I'm not a huge advocate of State intervention, but I do think that it is required here - and suspect it will happen when someone takes charge

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-62604653 (looks like something is happening behind the scenes but not necessarily what we would like)

A regular energy industry exercise aimed at preparing the UK for the possibility of a gas supply emergency has been scaled up despite the government downplaying the threat of shortages this winter.
The annual drill will see potential scenarios - including rationing electricity - wargamed over four days, rather than the usual two, as energy concerns grow.
Industry insiders linked the drill's extension to the seriousness of the energy challenges forecast this winter.
But the government says the exercise is a routine part of the energy industry calendar and insists there is no risk to gas supplies this winter.

 

[Annoying Donkey]

But the government says the exercise is a routine part of the energy industry calendar and insists there is no risk to gas supplies this winter.

If the government is saying there's no risk, I'd be very worried...!

 

[NickGrogan]

a) the cost of taking over the failed companies has been dumped on standing charge (and in fact on electricity which everyone has - as Ofgen has raised the standing charge price cap)

b) you may be buying renewables but the fact non renewables have gone up in price/become unavailable has raised the premium the market will pay for the energy from renewables (if people need to buy fruit and apples go up in price/become scarce people will pay more for the oranges which exist)

c) that is a contractual thing, my mum has a really old domestic solar feedin tariff with a built in escalator, she is now on 54p per unit feedin !

As for Energy minister - didnt even realise we had one, and after the last round of culling/reshuffle/resignations it is likely Larry the cat (no actually scrap that - he might have a plan)

Pretty much.

The only bits I'd add.

a) The grid is being upgraded to cope with the "green" revolution - EVs, heat pumps, wind turbines and batteries. This is costing billions, but you are getting nice new substations that are more efficient.

b) The wholesale price is driven by the most expensive unit of electricity. Base generation like nuclear is pretty much fixed in price and hasn't moved, as power gets short the cost of generating enough escalates as more expensive sources come on line. The alternative is blackouts.

 

[DazRave]

Had a flyer through the door today. The timing of the flyer couldn't have been better since I'd just read the above-quoted article on the BBC, I feel as though the actual agenda was preparing me for inevitable power cuts.

The first page was basically sweet talking me "Here's what you do if you ever have a power outage, you can call all these numbers, text, email, tweet, carrier pigeon and we'll be there to help you within a jiffy, we're here for you" yadda yadda.

The rest of the pages were all about what to do if the power is out and before it's back on again. Things to have ready "always have a torch and test the batteries" etc.

Talk about timing.

 

[NewTime]

What can the government actually do? They've already given out £x over a period of time and some people are getting near £1k.

Feel as though the only thing that can help is a cap on energy costs.

 

[Red Wood]

What can the government actually do? They've already given out £x over a period of time and some people are getting near £1k.

Feel as though the only thing that can help is a cap on energy costs.

Potentially large loans to the energy companies backed by the UK GOV and paid back via tax or bills over the next 25-30 years. This will enable them to buy energy and sell at a loss.

 

[Not a subway]

Who is we? I’ve managed to do loads of stuff in the last 10 years without any debt.

You living beyond yours?

We are all living beyond our means when it comes to resource allocation.
Money does not equal resources. How much do we import? We pay third world countries a pittance for their labour.
Therefore, we are all living the high life because we are being subsidised by cheap labour and cheap raw materials.
Ask yourself one thing. Would your current occupation afford the same lifestyle in a third world country. In 95% of cases the answer is no.

 

[Not a subway]

Sorry to be mundane...bringing the topic back to energy costs....just had my renewal (end of fixed rate:

Standing Charge: £4 per day (increase of 958%)
Day Units: £0.7899 (increase of 222%)
Night Units: £0.5315 (increase of 194%)

For me, that takes my yearly spend from £8k to £35k...

I know prices have gone up, but my big grips are:

(a) why such a big increase in the standing charge? This is meant to be the fixed price for getting the power to the property....the power lines/cables are already there...it is simple profiteering because there are no protection/caps for SME's

(b) my existing tarif is 100% renewables......there should be no effect of gas prices on my supply. The cost of the wind and sun has not increased. It is pure profiteering.

(c) I fitted 80 solar panels to my building 6 yrs ago......and get paid a Feed In Tarif of 13p per kWh.......amazinging, the price I get paid has not risen in line 'with the market'.

I spoke to a neighbour last night who works for a grain feed company: their electricity bill will go up next month from £135k pcm to £487k pcm........they are looking at mothballing plant and consulting on redundancies as they cannot pass these costs on to their customers.

SME's need better protection/some kind of cap to protect them from the worst ravages of this energy crisis.

Where is the Energy Minister? Have you heard anything from them?

The rise in cost has never been so unsustainable. As I mentioned in my previous posts, a lot of friends have multiple small retail units. Their bills are Normally under £1k per month. These rises will push that to almost £1k per week. Into the red. How will small businesses survive?

A larger company can borrow or leverage but that isn't an option for local small community businesses.

 

[japancool]

We are all living beyond our means when it comes to resource allocation.

No, we are not.

We may be consuming more than our fair share, however you define that, but we are not "living beyond our means", at least, not for that reason.

 

[thetiger2015]

We are all living beyond our means when it comes to resource allocation.
Money does not equal resources. How much do we import? We pay third world countries a pittance for their labour.
Therefore, we are all living the high life because we are being subsidised by cheap labour and cheap raw materials.
Ask yourself one thing. Would your current occupation afford the same lifestyle in a third world country. In 95% of cases the answer is no.

Not exactly living the high life. Some people are, half the country isn't and that's going to get worse. Lots of people in the UK live in some form of poverty, subsidies from the state hide the real impact. If you take the subsidies away, you'd see millions homeless, arguably worse than in the 3rd world.

We have a situation, completely inflicted by the Wests obsession with short term profits over long term sustainability, whereby the only way to temporarily avoid catastrophic social unrest = more subsidies/benefits/handouts/grants.

The national debt in the US and UK is unmanageable, it's just too big, it can never be repaid. Even the interest repayments are becoming a struggle. The only way the super rich can keep their gold is to pass more of the debt along to the poorest in the form of benefits and handouts, making them pay it back over the next 300 odd years. They've done this successfully with the COVID era, they managed to push along billions of debt without the super rich needing to pay anything. They're now doing this with energy bills, the super rich don't pay nowt, they claim it back through various companies and tax relief funds or expenses claims. The poorest don't have any of those options, so they'll have to either cough up or die...that's the choice. Preferably, the rich would like to see you cough up, then die immediately, that would help boost the pot of gold they cling to.

The gap between the wealthy and the poor has increased dramatically in the last few years, expect it to get worse in the next 12 months. Those super yachts are still selling like hot cakes though...and the ferraris...and the mansions...odd that isn't it.

 

[Not a subway]

No, we are not.

We may be consuming more than our fair share, however you define that, but we are not "living beyond our means", at least, not for that reason.

Why do we import more than we can manufacture? We have a resource deficit.

 

[japancool]

Why do we import more than we can manufacture? We have a resource deficit.

Which does not, in itself, mean we are "living beyond our means".

There are things we don't have, but we need. Other people have those things and are willing to sell them to us. That's how an economy works.

The reason we are "living beyond our means" has nothing to do with that. There is one reason, and one reason alone - because our economy is debt-fuelled. But we are hardly alone in that.

It certainly has relatively little to do with the fact that Britain's population consumes more resources proportionally than its population would suggest it should.

 

[Not a subway]

Which does not, in itself, mean we are "living beyond our means".

There are things we don't have, but we need. Other people have those things and are willing to sell them to us. That's how an economy works.

The reason we are "living beyond our means" has nothing to do with that. There is one reason, and one reason alone - because our economy is debt-fuelled. But we are hardly alone in that.

It certainly has relatively little to do with the fact that Britain's population consumes more resources proportionally than its population would suggest it should.

www.ons.gov.uk/economy/inflationandpriceindices/bulletins/consumptionperhead/consumptionperheadintheukisfourthhighestintheeu

 

[Not a subway]

Not exactly living the high life. Some people are, half the country isn't and that's going to get worse. Lots of people in the UK live in some form of poverty, subsidies from the state hide the real impact. If you take the subsidies away, you'd see millions homeless, arguably worse than in the 3rd world.

We have a situation, completely inflicted by the Wests obsession with short term profits over long term sustainability, whereby the only way to temporarily avoid catastrophic social unrest = more subsidies/benefits/handouts/grants.

The national debt in the US and UK is unmanageable, it's just too big, it can never be repaid. Even the interest repayments are becoming a struggle. The only way the super rich can keep their gold is to pass more of the debt along to the poorest in the form of benefits and handouts, making them pay it back over the next 300 odd years. They've done this successfully with the COVID era, they managed to push along billions of debt without the super rich needing to pay anything. They're now doing this with energy bills, the super rich don't pay nowt, they claim it back through various companies and tax relief funds or expenses claims. The poorest don't have any of those options, so they'll have to either cough up or die...that's the choice. Preferably, the rich would like to see you cough up, then die immediately, that would help boost the pot of gold they cling to.

The gap between the wealthy and the poor has increased dramatically in the last few years, expect it to get worse in the next 12 months. Those super yachts are still selling like hot cakes though...and the ferraris...and the mansions...odd that isn't it.

Sure, there are people who are relatively poor in Great Britain. However, the access they have to consumables and material wealth is a lot greater than most middle class people in developing nations.
Ask yourself, would you rather be on benefits in the UK or on a surgeons salary in the DRC.

Everything else you have said is spot on and it is only going to get worse.

 

[MBE2017]

What can the government actually do? They've already given out £x over a period of time and some people are getting near £1k.

Feel as though the only thing that can help is a cap on energy costs.

This Gov is doing the opposite. The energy regulator is looking to allow new rules which effectively rules out competition, meaning rates will increase potentially every three months, but if the wholesale prices drop, without real market competition the rates are unlikely to drop to the correct level.

Under a Conservative Gov, the watchdog is not going to protect consumers or market competition, the very reason for its existence. This is what led to Martin Lewis swearing during the meeting where this was discussed. Basically the Gov has given the energy companies and their lobby everything they want, but nothing for the consumer.

 

[IanSuth]

Why do we import more than we can manufacture? We have a resource deficit.

We have to

We depleted much of our primary resources (ores etc) in the 19th century creating the industrial revolution.

At one point Devon Great Consuls mine near Tavistock was the largest copper mine in the world, after it was no longer economically worthwhile (higher production costs whilst world copper price dived due to other easier mines in Africa coming on stream) it reworked it's spoil heaps for Arsenic and became the largest Arsenic works in the world (in the 1870's there was said to be enough arsenic on the quays at Morwellham to poison the entire world.

Now it is the pretty Tamar valley around Gunnislake as the lease from the Duke of Bedford demanded it be restored to woodland he could hunt in once surrendered.

We can not replicate that kind of production of ANYTHING now, i do not believe there is a primary product that is economical to produce onshore in the UK and if not a primary product then we will be importing that primary resource (produced by 3rd world low wage workers)

What we could harvest would be wind and tidal power being on the NEastern side of a huge body of water with a prevailing wind/current from the SW.

If you want a long term resource production I would suggest lobbying for a tidal barrage covered in wind turbines cross the severn estuary (and beggar the birds)