Refunds - customers also taking the P

islandgirl

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Jun 19, 2013
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I've been tolerant , helpful, cheerful, offered a service , bent over backwards at times! But today I've had it! Customers take the P***!
And probably no-one but myself to blame as my returns policy has been all of the above.
Re -reading the 'sales of goods act' (good reading material) I have been more than helpful in all of my dealings with customers but sorry Mrs Customer , you've seen my product, tried it on (at great length), having ordered it in especially for you, the product is everything you expected regarding quality and it's fit for purpose! ; for you to change your mind and say " no I just don't like them, they're not comfy, I'll have a refund thank you" , is not helping out the small guy (gal) in anyway shape or form! I feel quite abused !

Is it me? Takings have been down massively for the last 2 weeks and I can ill afford refunds thank you very much!

Regardless to say a very clear, new refund policy is now being written.
Any good ones out there I can borrow?

Rant over :mad:
 

scm5436

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Nov 22, 2007
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I've been tolerant , helpful, cheerful, offered a service , bent over backwards at times! But today I've had it! Customers take the P***!
And probably no-one but myself to blame as my returns policy has been all of the above.
Re -reading the 'sales of goods act' (good reading material) I have been more than helpful in all of my dealings with customers but sorry Mrs Customer , you've seen my product, tried it on (at great length), having ordered it in especially for you, the product is everything you expected regarding quality and it's fit for purpose! ; for you to change your mind and say " no I just don't like them, they're not comfy, I'll have a refund thank you" , is not helping out the small guy (gal) in anyway shape or form! I feel quite abused !

Is it me? Takings have been down massively for the last 2 weeks and I can ill afford refunds thank you very much!

Regardless to say a very clear, new refund policy is now being written.
Any good ones out there I can borrow?

Rant over :mad:
Just be glad you're not an internet retailer - the Distance Selling Regs are much restrictive and highly annoying! "You ripped open the retail packaging and then decided it wasn't what you wanted, despite the colour picture and detailed description on the outside of the box, and now you want to return it? Sure, don't worry abut the retail packaging or our subsequent inability to resell it, just throw it in an old shoe box and post it back for a full refund - including the delivery cost" grrrr!!!
 
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columbo

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Jan 27, 2013
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Well, you are not the only one. Recently, a study has shown that online clothing retaillers in Germany for womens clothing are having a very tough time. Women order 3 sizes of a garment. Select the best fit and return the other 2!.

OP, like any problem in business. You have to design a system to combat the problem. If don't like returns implement a set of terms and conditions for your customers. Make them fair AND as upfront as possible. Customers hate sneaky T+C's. When you are upfront with your T+C's - reasonable customers won't argue with you, take up tons of your time etc...
 
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islandgirl

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Jun 19, 2013
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I see what you mean, yes.
However I have been and would have continued to be more than lenient from a customers point of you regarding the 'Ive changed my mind ' brigade as I don't have to refund .
It seems to me that the big stores are more than happy to do that refund style, with lots of customers and bags of stock, it probably makes little impact on a daily takings total. For me it can put me into minus figures.
All this has done has impress upon the customer that is it the norm and becomes an expectation.
If they could get this product frequently, anywhere else in the county, I would consider this as a point to consider but I'm the only stockist and trying to grow a good reputation as well as a profit.
I cannot meet the same refund policy as a 'big boy' and the customer didnt want to use a large store , I think they should accept that refund policies will not be the same and should not expect this.
Just sayin (ranting sorry)
 
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This was an instore purchase right?
You say you've now re-written your returns policy... So did your returns policy previously permit refunds? And if so on what terms? It's this policy that counts to this sale and you may find the customer has a contractual right to return....
 
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islandgirl

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Jun 19, 2013
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SCM 5436 , I have noted the online sales of Goods act too and I am delighted to be able to offer online sales through my e - commerce site (not), because it is expected I cant wait for my first lot of returns to come back ruined and unable to sell to anyone else! But rest assured the customer will be protected from me ripping them off in any way!
 
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islandgirl

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Jun 19, 2013
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Arcon 5 and Columbo - my returns policy clearly states that refunds can only be offered if faulty but that an exchange or credit note can be issued happily. I am usually happy to use my benefit of the doubt with customers if rapport is good and with repeating customers. Its my shop after all, Im not ripping anyone off.

My point is (and I kick myself repeatedly today) is that there was no discussing it, her credit card was out ready for the refund (expected), despite me saying I think you should ask your daughter to persevere with the boots. Having tried them on and another 3 pairs that I had ordered for her. At 8 years old I figure the parent (customer) could have been a bit more 'parenty'. After one wear at home they are no good is not a good enough reason to return and I wouldn't have had the balls to return any product my kids didnt 'like' having tried them on repeatedly in the shop.
Look out retailers of tomorrow we have some flakey kids coming up!
 
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islandgirl

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Jun 19, 2013
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Deniser , so sorry for you ! It is exactly that - the nerve !
What are your rights here?
Hope you charged them massively! I'd be full of apology and totally embarrassed and ready to pay !
I truly think customers think we have some sort of 'insurance policy' that we claim on and if we did have one it would be free!
 
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deniser

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Jun 3, 2008
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Deniser , so sorry for you ! It is exactly that - the nerve !
What are your rights here?
Hope you charged them massively! I'd be full of apology and totally embarrassed and ready to pay !
I truly think customers think we have some sort of 'insurance policy' that we claim on and if we did have one it would be free!

They have been posted back. I haven't decided what to do with them yet. At the moment, we are still trying to get the marks out!
 
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scm5436

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Nov 22, 2007
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They have been posted back. I haven't decided what to do with them yet. At the moment, we are still trying to get the marks out!
"I'm sorry, but we're a clothes sales shop, not a free hire shop, we can't accept returns of items that have clearly been worn so your items are here and available for collection by your courier, or we can ship them back to you for £x charge. If they've not been collected after x days we'll dispose of them as we see fit"... that should do it... ;)
 
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We've just had two party dresses returned covered in fake tan and chocolate!

The nerve of some people!

Sounds like they only needed the dresses for a night out.

Personally I'd just post them back to the customer telling them why a return isn't being accepted (even if technically wrong).

Op, in such a situation the customer would be seen as having failed in their duty of care and liable for damages to the poster. Technically she would have to refund irrespective and pursue a claim independently against the customer - in reality though most retailers simply refuse to refund! The customers highly unlikely to pursue it.
 
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Dymo King

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Jul 17, 2008
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We just don't give out our returns address until we approve the return first - so we ask the reasons for return first and only proceed if they have a basis to return it (so they might say "I didn't like the colour" or "it didn't fit").

So then we'd send them return instructions, which would clearly lay out the conditions of the return, and under what circumstances we would not accept the return.

So in your case "The item is authorised for return on the understanding that it is the wrong size/colour, so will be un-used, in 'as new' condition with tags still attached. In the event that the tags have been removed, or there is any indication that the goods have been used we will be unable to accept your return and your goods will be made available for collection."

Some people will send it back because they're unclear as to what you'll accept. Some will know that they're trying it on and are hoping that once the goods are back in your hands you'll just refund to avoid the hassle of arguing about it and resending it out.

This way, they know exactly what you'll accept and what you'll do about it if they try it on - so many will simply give up before returning it as they know you won't accept it.

It's kind of like dealing with children - you need to explain the boundaries, and the consequences of crossing the line...
 
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Dymo King

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in such a situation the customer would be seen as having failed in their duty of care and liable for damages to the poster. Technically she would have to refund irrespective and pursue a claim independently against the customer
That is correct (though somewhat annoying) if the goods were damaged in transit (not packed properly for the return) or if say the customer spilt coffee down it while trying it on.

But if the customer wore the goods to a party then they have no right to return the goods under the DSR - It gives them the right to examine it as they would in a shop (which in the case of clothes would include trying it on), it doesn't give them the right to wear it to a party or on a night out!
 
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tony84

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I was in B&Q the other day, i had a credit note (sorrrry) that they were having issues with. Anyway, whilst they were faffing around calling head office a woman from the custoemr services desk came over to the supervisor i was with and said some woman wants a refund on.... a toilet seat she has been using since August.

B&Q said no at first, then backed down when she asked to speak to a manager!!! Can you believe they backed down.

The refund was because it had a mark on it not because it was faulty.
 
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That is correct (though somewhat annoying) if the goods were damaged in transit (not packed properly for the return) or if say the customer spilt coffee down it while trying it on.

But if the customer wore the goods to a party then they have no right to return the goods under the DSR - It gives them the right to examine it as they would in a shop (which in the case of clothes would include trying it on), it doesn't give them the right to wear it to a party or on a night out!

I hate to say it but your wrong. The customers right to return, their rights to a refund and your rights to take action against them are independent.

Also the OFT released a guide to DSRs which covered tags and packaging and issued guidance that removing from packaging etc is unlikely to constitute a breach of their duty of care.

Whether you agree with it or not, whether you abide by it or not (and for what it's worth I don't agree with it nor did I ever abide by it), this is the law.
 
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I was in B&Q the other day, i had a credit note (sorrrry) that they were having issues with. Anyway, whilst they were faffing around calling head office a woman from the custoemr services desk came over to the supervisor i was with and said some woman wants a refund on.... a toilet seat she has been using since August.

B&Q said no at first, then backed down when she asked to speak to a manager!!! Can you believe they backed down.

The refund was because it had a mark on it not because it was faulty.

I hope the mark wasn't a certain colour :eek:
 
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Dymo King

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Jul 17, 2008
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I hate to say it but your wrong.
Possibly, but that's thing about the DSR - it's ambiguous and therefore arguable. It's almost a case of who has the best argument wins, unless it goes to court. Even then, it's probably down to who can make the most convincing explanation of the DSR to the judge!

The customers right to return, their rights to a refund and your rights to take action against them are independent.
I don't disagree with that. If they have the right to return but damage the goods you have to refund then take them to court to recover your losses from their breach of duty of care. The question is can they invalidate their rights under the DSR?

Also the OFT released a guide to DSRs which covered tags and packaging and issued guidance that removing from packaging etc is unlikely to constitute a breach of their duty of care.
I don't disagree with that either. You can tell them you expect them to leave the tags on, and retain the packaging - but you can't do anything if they fail to do so. With regard to the packaging I think it very much depends on the product - clothes you're kind of stuffed because they can expect to be able to try the clothes on. BUT, opening a sealed box, then opening a sealed anti-static bag containing a CPU or memory is not really allowed (The wording in the guidance states "you are allowed to examine the goods as you would in a shop", unless there is something more recent that contradicts that. And if you tried that in an electronics shop you'd be marched to the till!

But my point here is that if you bought clothes in a shop you could try it on and look at yourself in the mirror. So at home you have the right to try it on as well. However, as far as I can tell the DSR does not give you the right to put it on and party the night away in it. At that point you've gone from "examining" the goods to "using" the goods, and at that point I would argue you are no longer covered by the DSR as you've effectively 'accepted' the goods, and therefore the "right to return" under the DSR no longer applies.

Whether you agree with it or not, whether you abide by it or not (and for what it's worth I don't agree with it nor did I ever abide by it), this is the law.
Indeed. The best method is to explain what you expect in advance - so when you send the goods make it clear what you expect to happen (ie. "Under the DSR You are allowed to examine the goods as you would in a shop, which includes trying it on. However, if you wear the clothes you lose your right to return them. Please do not remove the tags until you are sure you wish to keep the goods. If you wish to return the item please return them complete with tags and packaging"). That's not strictly enforceable, or necessarily correct, but if you make it clear in advance they will think twice about taking the p***. And then the next step is, as you say, just to ignore the DSR anyway and that means they have to take you to court for failing to follow the DSR.

But we've never had that problem. A few have argued they should get a return because they "know their rights", but they never do and when you point out the relevant section of the DSR they accept it and go away. Except one woman who just kept insisting she knew her rights even though she was clearly in the wrong and we kept sending her links to the appropriate law and quoting paragraphs that told her she was wrong. I think we just ignored her in the end, after sending a long email repeating all of the paragraphs that proved she was talking complete nonsense. It's difficult to argue with someone who's only response to actual facts and evidence is "but I know my rights". :rolleyes:
 
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Dymo King

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B&Q said no at first, then backed down when she asked to speak to a manager!!! Can you believe they backed down.
To them there brand is worth more than the cost of a toilet seat which is a low cost item. But because big companies do things like that customers get 'programmed' to expect everyone else to have the same type of refund policy.

It's the same with clothes - these reason women tend to buy 3 size of the same item, see which fits and return the other two is all the fault of the clothing catalogs which allow and almost encourage such behaviour - and with free delivery and free collections why wouldn't you do it as a consumer? You've got nothing to lose. But again they then go to other clothes places and expect the same treatment.
 
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kulture

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    I have to completely disagree with you. It is always best to look at the actual regulations and not the "guidelines". In the regulations there is NO MENTION of "you are allowed to examine the goods as you would in a shop". The DSRs are very simple. Very unambiguous. The customer, if a consumer, can cancel for any reason. The seller has to refund in full. Whilst in possession of the goods the customer has to keep reasonable care of them.

    There is nothing saying that the customer cannot open boxes, unwrap sealed packaging, (except DVDs) or even use the goods. As long as they take reasonable care. There is no provision in the regulations saying that the goods have to remain saleable.

    It sucks, but it is the law.
     
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    Dymo King

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    I have to completely disagree with you. It is always best to look at the actual regulations and not the "guidelines". In the regulations there is NO MENTION of "you are allowed to examine the goods as you would in a shop". The DSRs are very simple. Very unambiguous. The customer, if a consumer, can cancel for any reason. The seller has to refund in full. Whilst in possession of the goods the customer has to keep reasonable care of them.

    There is nothing saying that the customer cannot open boxes, unwrap sealed packaging, (except DVDs) or even use the goods. As long as they take reasonable care. There is no provision in the regulations saying that the goods have to remain saleable.

    It sucks, but it is the law.
    Sure. The "examine the goods as in a shop" is in the OFT's DSR guidance document, not the DSR itself. But the way I look at it is that the OFT are the ones responsible for implementing the DSR, so if they come out with an interpretation of the regulations I'm happy to use their interpretation.

    If someone purchased say, a book of crosswords off me, then filled in all the crosswords and returned it under the DSR I would tell them to take a hike. I'd wouldn't refund then take them to court over their breach of care, I would say "you've used it, the DSR only allows you to examine it, so the DSR says you're not getting a refund". If they want to take me to court because they argue the DSR allows them to do that I'd happily sit before the judge or whatever they call them in the small claims court with a copy of the OFT's own guidance document and argue my case.

    I know it's just a "guidance" document, not the regs themselves, but isn't the point of the guidance document that there are some disagreements and misunderstandings about what the DSR is for and what it allows and they (the OFT) have sat down and decided how they interpreted how it should be used? With laws don't the courts also have the ability to look at what the law was intended for and have some ability to use judgement rather than strict interpretation of the law?

    The whole intention of the DSR is that comsumers can buy something without having seen it first, so it may be a different size/shape/colour/weight/texture or whatever than what they expected. So the DSR allows them to see and examine it in the privacy of their own home, and then decide if they want to keep it or return it. They are therefore in the same position as they would be in a shop - they haven't been disadvantaged by buying at a distance. It is not he purpose of the DSR to let them take stuff on a 7 day test drive for free then send It back. The DSR may not specifically say they can't do that, but that's almost certainly because the people that wrote it did so to make sure the big greedy companies didn't abuse the poor innocent consumer. They did not anticipate that consumers would be an outrageous bunch of p*** takers who would abuse the DSR...

    I've also had discussions with trading standards about various aspects of the DSR, such as buying online and then collecting from a store. Technically, as it's a distance sale the DSR should 'legally' apply, but TS agreed that if the customer comes into the store to collect (and they are allowed to examine the goods, and allowed to cancel the goods at that time) then the DSR does not apply once they leave the store. (That was a hypothetical query btw, not an actual argument with a customer). So TS (who the OFT said are responsible for dealing with disputes over the DSR) seem to be able to take a common sense approach, rather than blindly following the regs.

    So in the event that the consumer didn't accept my argument and refused to back down I would send the argument to TS, and I would expect them to back me. Then if the customer ignored that, and kept on with their stubborn instance of ignoring the OFT guidance and only reading the actual regs, then I would let them take us to the small claims court and I would take the OFT guidance document and the Trading Standards reply. With the backing of the 'enforcers', guidance from the 'implementers' and common sense on my side I'm confident I'd win that, despite what the law actually said...

    But I could be wrong. But if the customer was really trying it on I would go all the way. :D
     
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    kulture

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    Don't get me wrong. I would go all the way too if I thought a customer was trying it on. That said, again you are wrong. The OFT does not enforce the DSRs, it is the courts. The customer can take you to court (small claims) if they feel you are in breach. Then all bets are off. There is very little case law on the DSRs as yet. So there is no way you or I can guess which way a judge will rule. If you get really unlucky, you may get a judge who got out of bed the wrong way and will interpret the law as it is written and not as it is implied.
     
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    Mayor

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    As a shopkeeper, I'm afraid I'm not terribly sympathetic to on-liners that get people taking advantage of distance selling regs for their own gain. If we have someone return an item, they have to come into our shop, and deal face to face with a trained member of staff, whilst looking at notices that clearly state that refunds are only offered on faulty goods. If someone claims an item is faulty, or substandard, the staff member is all over it, ascertaining what the problem actually is. The amount of people that are incapable of reading instructions seems to make up the greatest numbers. There are advantages to mail order supply - the lower overheads, less staff etc, but the disadvantages are obvious too. I hated selling mail order, and now no longer do so.
     
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    Dymo King

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    The OFT does not enforce the DSRs, it is the courts. The customer can take you to court (small claims) if they feel you are in breach. Then all bets are off. There is very little case law on the DSRs as yet.
    My understanding is the the OFT were responsible for implementing the DSR, Consumer Direct is responsible for providing basic advice for consumers and a first port of call, CD can then escalate criminal complaints or more complex questions (or as a business you can go direct) to Trading Standards. TS will then read through the DSR and issue their interpretation. Maybe referring to them as the 'enforcers' was badly worded, and maybe their opinions carry no legal weight.

    And you're right, if it went to court there's no guarantee how it would play out (though if the judge did get out of bed the wrong way you'd expect them to take it out on the ones taking the p***, not side with them). But I would think if common sense and Trading Standards were on your side you'd have a pretty good chance.

    But like I said, this is all the more reason to try and prevent this in the first place - by clearly stating your policy in advance so the customer knows what you expect.

    What you 'expect' is of course just a suggestion in some cases (ie. leave the tags on, and return in packaging) and not enforceable but some people don't know that, and of those that do anyone intending on taking advantage of you will realise they might have to fight for it and may be dissuaded. As long as your terms and conditions accurately state their rights, and you provide the necessary bits of information with the email confirmation then you should be ok. Legally any term that contradicts the DSR is invalid, but that doesn't stop you making 'suggestions'.

    You also don't have to explain the implications of the DSR in your terms and conditions (ie. you don't have to tell them that they don't need to return the packaging. Legally they don't need to, but you don't have to tell them that. You can't insist that they do, but there's nothing saying you can suggest it)
     
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    deniser

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    "I'm sorry, but we're a clothes sales shop, not a free hire shop, we can't accept returns of items that have clearly been worn so your items are here and available for collection by your courier, or we can ship them back to you for £x charge. If they've not been collected after x days we'll dispose of them as we see fit"... that should do it... ;)

    Done. Customer replied swearing blind the things had not been worn. Well they may not have been worn but they were definitely tried on in circumstances which did not constitute taking reasonable care of the items while being tried on.
     
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    T

    The Governor

    Well, you say you can't re-sell used items but many retailers do!

    I bought a couple of stereo systems off Argos' ebay site. They were described as "Brand new and sealed" and "12 month warranty".

    Got them, one was clearly new but the other was second-hand! It had Christmas wrapping still stuck to the bottom of the box and the polythene bags inside had clearly been opened. What's worse the bl00dy thing didn't even work!!

    Called Argos and asked for a refund: "You'd better send them back soon or your 30 days will be up".

    So..clearly selling goods that other sellers have tried and rejected and only offering a 30 day warranty when the web page clearly states 12 months!

    Trading Standards aren't interested unless they get more complaints of the same nature.

    I could tell you about a worse experience in the now defunct Comet, but I'll leave it for another day.

    What I'm saying is make sure your refund policy is seen to be fair to both parties and stick to it. That way you can't go wrong.
     
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