Recruiting at minimum wage level

[IanSuth]

In or around 1997 I was working in a bar where the pay just crept over £2 an hour, it previously being 1.96 or something. There was certainly no shortage of people wanting such a job. According to the Bank of England's inflation calculator, that £2 should now be £5.18 but thanks to the minimum wage, it is now £9.50 or nearly double the inflated figure. An imprecise tool of course but food for thought.

I think that must depend upon location and age

in 1987 I was a 16 yo with my first job working on the tills in Tesco, that paid £1.685 (yes that is a half pence) per hour. That would be £4.51 today according to the BofE inflation calculator - current min wage for a 16yo is £4.81 so within 7% of that number

 

[NickGrogan]

Have a watch

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Unless you made the video, it doesn't tell me which of the things you are against.

Higher wages for UK staff?
Higher wages for European staff in their own country?
Improved productivity for UK businesses?

 

[The Byre]

Higher wages for UK staff?

are not keeping up with inflation by a considerable margin

Higher wages for European staff in their own country?

are not keeping up with inflation by a large margin

Improved productivity for UK businesses?

and productivity has remained utterly stagnant in nominal terms according to the ONS - therefore real productivity is falling.

All figures are bent out of shape by the inflation created by the BoE, the ECB, and all governments issuing bonds.

Oh, but there's more!

Those ONS figures are per worker and hours worked. There are today 624,000 FEWER people in work in the UK since the C19 hysteria. Overall productivity is falling!

ONS -

"The employment rate is 1.0 percentage points lower than before the pandemic."

"In real terms (adjusted for inflation) over the year, total pay fell by 2.4% and regular pay fell by 2.9%. This is slightly smaller than the record fall in real regular pay we saw April to June 2022 (3.0%), but still remains among the largest falls in growth since comparable records began in 2001."

UK productivity flash estimate - Office for National Statistics

Flash estimate of labour productivity for Quarter 2 (April to June) 2022 based on the GDP first quarterly estimate and labour market statistics.

www.ons.gov.uk

 

[NickGrogan]

are not keeping up with inflation by a considerable margin

are not keeping up with inflation by a large margin

and productivity has remained utterly stagnant in nominal terms according to the ONS - therefore real productivity is falling.

All figures are bent out of shape by the inflation created by the BoE, the ECB, and all governments issuing bonds.

Oh, but there's more!

Those ONS figures are per worker and hours worked. There are today 624,000 FEWER people in work in the UK since the C19 hysteria. Overall productivity is falling!

ONS -

"The employment rate is 1.0 percentage points lower than before the pandemic."

"In real terms (adjusted for inflation) over the year, total pay fell by 2.4% and regular pay fell by 2.9%. This is slightly smaller than the record fall in real regular pay we saw April to June 2022 (3.0%), but still remains among the largest falls in growth since comparable records began in 2001."

UK productivity flash estimate - Office for National Statistics

Flash estimate of labour productivity for Quarter 2 (April to June) 2022 based on the GDP first quarterly estimate and labour market statistics.

www.ons.gov.uk

Ok, so wages for workers in the UK and Europe are higher than they would otherwise be but not as high as people would like them to be? Agreed?

Totally agree regarding inflation, it's the highly predictable result of the policies, governments and central banks just chose not to predict it.

I am referring to productivity per person/business, not necessarily for the entire economy. Higher wages lead to increased productivity. You've posted about this yourself.

As the cost of employing someone increases then the business only remains viable if productivity increases as well. This could be via more automation, smarter use of IT, or hiring better staff for example

 

[Jass T]

Unless you made the video, it doesn't tell me which of the things you are against.

Higher wages for UK staff?
Higher wages for European staff in their own country?
Improved productivity for UK businesses?

Who said am against any of these thing..?
But are they happening..?

 

[Talay]

You're hitting the nail here; a huge number of our Lazy British youth don't want a job unless it comes with a car a high wage and only 1 day of work a week. They will have a real shock later in life when they can't do FA for themselves whilst a clued-up youngster charges them £100 to fit a light bulb

My daughter is 15, going to do her GCSEs next year. Sadly, she is not massively academic and may struggle to get high enough grades to go along the A level into university route. I know it is not right for everyone but she wouldn't be coming out into debt and I think if you can afford it, then university life is great. A degree in kite flying and £100k of debt is not a good use of your time though.

However, she can change light bulbs, rewire a plug, almost replace a shower including electrics, plumbing, tiling and mastic etc. She knows about 3 phase electric and we're working on a few other things.

But if left to her devices, she'd be another useless lump dependent on someone else for everything. So she gets a kick up the arse and pushed to get on with stuff. Seems like parenting in the UK has gone to the dogs.

 

[Jass T]

As the cost of employing someone increases then the business only remains viable if productivity increases as well. This could be via more automation, smarter use of IT, or hiring better staff for example

OR......putting your prices up.

 

[Talay]

I think that must depend upon location and age

in 1987 I was a 16 yo with my first job working on the tills in Tesco, that paid £1.685 (yes that is a half pence) per hour. That would be £4.51 today according to the BofE inflation calculator - current min wage for a 16yo is £4.81 so within 7% of that number

But back in 1987 the wage at 21 was just a couple of pence more. Today it is £9.50 or effectively double the 16 year old wage.

I'm concerned about the regular NMW, not some age specific discounted one. Anyway, 16 year olds cannot work in a bar.

 

[The Byre]

Ok, so wages for workers in the UK and Europe are higher than they would otherwise be but not as high as people would like them to be? Agreed?

No, wages in the UK are falling. They may be higher nominally, but in real terms, they are falling.

I am referring to productivity per person/business, not necessarily for the entire economy. Higher wages lead to increased productivity. You've posted about this yourself.

Sadly, we do not have higher wages so productivity per person and per business unit is falling. The ONS states that productivity is stagnant, but as they are measuring productivity in nominal terms only, that means that it is falling.

As the cost of employing someone increases then the business only remains viable if productivity increases as well. This could be via more automation, smarter use of IT, or hiring better staff for example

Agreed. And because labour costs are decreasing in real terms, it becomes marginally more viable to throw manpower at a problem than to buy expensive machinery. One timber harvesting machine and a forwarder does the work of about 20 experienced lumber-jacks, as two men in ten hours can fell, stack and clear about 100t of timber using machinery - but in a low wage economy, those 20 men pushing a back-breaking 8hr shift are actually cheaper, as those two machines with drivers cost about £400 per man-hour.

 

[japancool]

Don't forget how much we pay a man to open and close train doors.

 

[NickGrogan]

Who said am against any of these thing..?
But are they happening..?

Lots of companies having trouble recruiting at minimum wages, see the OP. The main cure for this is higher wages, so yes are increasing.

People who came here and learn new skills and improved their language skills and improved their personal networks are returning home, where they will earn more than they would without those skills. So yes again.

Higher wages drive productivity.

 

[NickGrogan]

OR......putting your prices up.

yes, another valid way to increase productivity.

 

[NickGrogan]

No, wages in the UK are falling. They may be higher nominally, but in real terms, they are falling.

Sadly, we do not have higher wages so productivity per person and per business unit is falling. The ONS states that productivity is stagnant, but as they are measuring productivity in nominal terms only, that means that it is falling.

Agreed. And because labour costs are decreasing in real terms, it becomes marginally more viable to throw manpower at a problem than to buy expensive machinery. One timber harvesting machine and a forwarder does the work of about 20 experienced lumber-jacks, as two men in ten hours can fell, stack and clear about 100t of timber using machinery - but in a low wage economy, those 20 men pushing a back-breaking 8hr shift are actually cheaper, as those two machines with drivers cost about £400 per man-hour.

If there was more cheap labour available, would the wages be higher or lower than they are now? Nominally and in real terms.

20 lumberjacks are cheaper, just so long as you can find and hire 20 lumberjacks. When there are only 5 lumberjacks willing and available to work at a low wage, then you can't clear your 100t of timber. So you either increase the wages until you can hire 20 lumberjacks or get the big machines, whichever is most cost-effective.

You then replace the machines and drivers with a robot that does it all and works 24/7

 

[Newchodge]

yes, another valid way to increase productivity.

?

 

[NickGrogan]

?

What don't you understand?

 

[Newchodge]

What don't you understand?

Your comment.

 

[Jass T]

Lots of companies having trouble recruiting at minimum wages, see the OP. The main cure for this is higher wages, so yes are increasing.

People who came here and learn new skills and improved their language skills and improved their personal networks are returning home, where they will earn more than they would without those skills. So yes again.

Higher wages drive productivity.

Lots of companies having trouble recruiting at minimum wages, see the OP. The main cure for this is higher wages, so yes are increasing.

People who came here and learn new skills and improved their language skills and improved their personal networks are returning home, where they will earn more than they would without those skills. So yes again.

Higher wages drive productivity.

Productivity has actually fallen across the board. One of the contributors to high inflation.
Which like has been mentioned, is making the wage rises you mentioned not real term wage rises.

 

[NickGrogan]

Your comment.

We were talking about increasing productivity, I listed some ways to increase productivity.

@Jass T suggested increasing prices, I agreed as this is a way to increase productivity.

Imagine Bob makes widgets, the profit on widgets is £1 and Bob makes 10 widgets per hour.

His productivity is £10 per hour and he will have trouble earning more than the minimum wage.

If the price of widgets rise to allow a profit of £3 per widget and Bob keeps making 10, his productivity is now £30 per hour, he can earn more than the minimum wage.

 

[NickGrogan]

Productivity has actually fallen across the board. One of the contributors to high inflation.
Which like has been mentioned, is making the wage rises you mentioned not real term wage rises.

Are the wage rises higher or lower than they would be if more cheap staff were available?

 

[Newchodge]

We were talking about increasing productivity, I listed some ways to increase productivity.

@Jass T suggested increasing prices, I agreed as this is a way to increase productivity.

Imagine Bob makes widgets, the profit on widgets is £1 and Bob makes 10 widgets per hour.

His productivity is £10 per hour and he will have trouble earning more than the minimum wage.

If the price of widgets rise to allow a profit of £3 per widget and Bob keeps making 10, his productivity is now £30 per hour, he can earn more than the minimum wage.

If that were true, Bob could produce 5 widgets instead of 10, making his 'productivity' 50% better despite the fact he is doing half the work. Are you suggesting this is a valid measure of productivity? The world has gone mad.

 

[IanSuth]

But back in 1987 the wage at 21 was just a couple of pence more. Today it is £9.50 or effectively double the 16 year old wage.

I'm concerned about the regular NMW, not some age specific discounted one. Anyway, 16 year olds cannot work in a bar.

Actually 16 year olds can, they just cant take money directly for alcohol unless under supervision (at least that is what the 17 flanker in the girls team I manage told me when i suddenly realised it was her serving me in a local)

 

[Bob Morgan]

Baffling!

 

[IanSuth]

Are the wage rises higher or lower than they would be if more cheap staff were available?

About the same as the wages are set by NWM not supply and demand of labour in lots of places

As an aside - during the peak of the influx of eastern europeans I placed a guy who had previously been pre sales manager for enterprise servers at IBM in Hungary. He had come here and worked in a warehouse on min wage to improve his English rather than get an IT job straight away, i then put him in an ISP's datacentre were he did 6 mths was then promoted to shift leader did another 6 mths then left to work for a large bit of the UK's infrastructure managing their networks infrastructure on £70k

There were lots of people like that - they were working well below their natural level, our warehouses were staffed by people stupidly overqualified using it as a great way to learn English.

No idea what that means for now but it is worth mentioning as they have been replaced a lot of the time with dweebs

 

[IanSuth]

My daughter is 15, going to do her GCSEs next year. Sadly, she is not massively academic and may struggle to get high enough grades to go along the A level into university route. I know it is not right for everyone but she wouldn't be coming out into debt and I think if you can afford it, then university life is great. A degree in kite flying and £100k of debt is not a good use of your time though.

However, she can change light bulbs, rewire a plug, almost replace a shower including electrics, plumbing, tiling and mastic etc. She knows about 3 phase electric and we're working on a few other things.

But if left to her devices, she'd be another useless lump dependent on someone else for everything. So she gets a kick up the arse and pushed to get on with stuff. Seems like parenting in the UK has gone to the dogs.

Get her to look at some of the 6th form colleges who run engineering courses tied in with local employers, mates daughter did this. She did her btecs and is now doing a degree apprenticeship working for a large civil engineers on road projects. She is earning reasonable money whilst gradually doing a degree which is all sponsored by the employer. She will be in a much better place aged 25 than any but a very few lucky ones of her cohort

 

[NickGrogan]

If that were true, Bob could produce 5 widgets instead of 10, making his 'productivity' 50% better despite the fact he is doing half the work. Are you suggesting this is a valid measure of productivity? The world has gone mad.

How do you think productivity is measured?

 

[NickGrogan]

About the same as the wages are set by NWM not supply and demand of labour in lots of places

As an aside - during the peak of the influx of eastern europeans I placed a guy who had previously been pre sales manager for enterprise servers at IBM in Hungary. He had come here and worked in a warehouse on min wage to improve his English rather than get an IT job straight away, i then put him in an ISP's datacentre were he did 6 mths was then promoted to shift leader did another 6 mths then left to work for a large bit of the UK's infrastructure managing their networks infrastructure on £70k

There were lots of people like that - they were working well below their natural level, our warehouses were staffed by people stupidly overqualified using it as a great way to learn English.

No idea what that means for now but it is worth mentioning as they have been replaced a lot of the time with dweebs

A lot of places like care homes want to pay minimum wages, but they can't get the staff at those rates. See the OP, he was also paying over minimum wage.

 

[UKSBD]

Get her to look at some of the 6th form colleges who run engineering courses tied in with local employers, mates daughter did this. She did her btecs and is now doing a degree apprenticeship working for a large civil engineers on road projects. She is earning reasonable money whilst gradually doing a degree which is all sponsored by the employer. She will be in a much better place aged 25 than any but a very few lucky ones of her cohort

My lad did similar
Just finished a BTEC in Computing, got D*, D*, D* (maximum UCAS points), had a place at UNI but decided apprenticeship would be better.

Problem is, we are out in sticks, no public transport, all the places offering the most suitable apprenticeships are 20+ miles away

He's taken a year out, working locally, saving, studying online, about to start taking driving lessons and as soon as he has passed his test and got a car will look again at apprenticeships.

 

[The Byre]

Imagine Bob makes widgets, the profit on widgets is £1 and Bob makes 10 widgets per hour.
His productivity is £10 per hour and he will have trouble earning more than the minimum wage.
If the price of widgets rise to allow a profit of £3 per widget and Bob keeps making 10, his productivity is now £30 per hour, he can earn more than the minimum wage.

If that were true, Bob could produce 5 widgets instead of 10, making his 'productivity' 50% better despite the fact he is doing half the work. Are you suggesting this is a valid measure of productivity? The world has gone mad.

You are both right - and a bit wrong as well.

Governments measure productivity in the only way that they can - tax returns, i.e. in currency. HMRC only gets its info in the form of financial reports. No company files its returns in numbers of widgets.

BUT

Governments are wrong to do so. And they know that they are wrong, so they ameliorate the error by adjusting for inflation. The absurdity of only measuring currency is shown if one looks at an economy that is totally dependent on one or two commodities - oil for example. The oil price doubles following a shortage scare and they are suddenly twice as productive - but no physical change has happened whatsoever!

If we go back to the quantity equation of money (MV=PY=GDPn) and just look at GDP, it is set as being the quantity of all goods and services times price. As the price is just a number set by the vagueries of the money markets, it is the amount of all goods and services that determines true GDP.

Where Nick needs to adjust his statement is that nominal productivity as reported to the government is set by turnover and not by profit.

 

[IanSuth]

My lad did similar
Just finished a BTEC in Computing, got D*, D*, D* (maximum UCAS points), had a place at UNI but decided apprenticeship would be better.

Problem is, we are out in sticks, no public transport, all the places offering the most suitable apprenticeships are 20+ miles away

He's taken a year out, working locally, saving, studying online, about to start taking driving lessons and as soon as he has passed his test and got a car will look again at apprenticeships.

Good on him.

The big thing for IT is experience for 99% of jobs

If you are not going into development (programming) most companies would rather take someone with provable knowledge and experience dealing with customers/issues than someone with just a bit of paper stating they know a lot of theory.

20 years ago my then boss ended up on a radio phone in against Kevin Warwick the Reading Uni cybernetics professor who put a chip in this arm - he was very much of the opinion universities should teach bare theory and it was companies jobs to take those people and mould them into useful employees. My boss was pointing out most companies are sme's and they want people who are productive and don't require another person to spend 6 mths hand holding so universities would be best served training people on business relevant tools.

Shortly after we helped in the writing of their business computing syllabus (now just called computer science) and they took up our suggestion it should definitely be a sandwich course with time in industry.

That course still exists, Cybernetics shut and prof warwick left the uni in 2014/5

 

[japancool]

If we go back to the quantity equation of money (MV=PY=GDPn) and just look at GDP, it is set as being the quantity of all goods and services times price. As the price is just a number set by the vagueries of the money markets, it is the amount of all goods and services that determines true GDP.

Perhaps we should measure productivity in PPP.

If a British worker produces one T-shirt an hour at £15, and a Vietnamese worker produces 3 T-shirts at 100,000 dong, who's more productive?

 

[The Byre]

That will depend on the dong and how you measure the dong. As I have never measured a Vietnamese dong (as far as I can remember, it's been a while since I last did that sort of thing) I cannot judge.

 

[Talay]

Get her to look at some of the 6th form colleges who run engineering courses tied in with local employers, mates daughter did this. She did her btecs and is now doing a degree apprenticeship working for a large civil engineers on road projects. She is earning reasonable money whilst gradually doing a degree which is all sponsored by the employer. She will be in a much better place aged 25 than any but a very few lucky ones of her cohort

Agreed but I have also told her to investigate and consider the Golden Arches. Why ? because a couple of years learning which side of a burger to flip and a bit of time through McD business school and you can buy a franchise which will print cash and make her a millionaire before she is 25 and give her 5 to 10 grand a week going forward.

No, its a shitty way to lead a life but it is a means to an end and it is quick and relatively inexpensive given the returns. Financially secure at age 25 and maybe even by age 21/23 has a lot of life benefits.

 

[IanSuth]

Agreed but I have also told her to investigate and consider the Golden Arches. Why ? because a couple of years learning which side of a burger to flip and a bit of time through McD business school and you can buy a franchise which will print cash and make her a millionaire before she is 25 and give her 5 to 10 grand a week going forward.

No, its a shitty way to lead a life but it is a means to an end and it is quick and relatively inexpensive given the returns. Financially secure at age 25 and maybe even by age 21/23 has a lot of life benefits.

No way will she be a McD franchise owner by mid 20's off her own back

Yes she will learn a lot (i know a guy who was a trainer for them who now works doing the same for a large franchised vape chain) but unless you provide the money to buy the franchise she won't earn it fast enough to do so herself. As soon as she steps into lower mgt she stops getting paid hourly, drops to salary and effectively earns less whilst working more - that is actually the big hurdle to overcome in their career path

 

[Talay]

No way will she be a McD franchise owner by mid 20's off her own back

Yes she will learn a lot (i know a guy who was a trainer for them who now works doing the same for a large franchised vape chain) but unless you provide the money to buy the franchise she won't earn it fast enough to do so herself. As soon as she steps into lower mgt she stops getting paid hourly, drops to salary and effectively earns less whilst working more - that is actually the big hurdle to overcome in their career path

If the start up costs are £800k then she'd need £200k which she can save, be gifted or whatever. The remaining £600k would come from a bank. That's about mid range McDonalds costs. Source: https://www.mcdonalds.com/gb/en-gb/franchising/the-financials.html

Getting £200k isn't easy but she is earning now, will earn through college or university and will likely have half that by the time she's 20 or so anyway. I'd likely give her the rest or partner her in the restaurant.

The McD ROI of 20/25% would bring in £160/200k, allowing reinvestment in another or larger operation moving to that £10k a week number, surely before age 25, likely before age 23 if not going the university route.

 

[bodgitt&scarperLTD]

No, wages in the UK are falling. They may be higher nominally, but in real terms, they are falling.

Sadly, we do not have higher wages so productivity per person and per business unit is falling. The ONS states that productivity is stagnant, but as they are measuring productivity in nominal terms only, that means that it is falling.

Agreed. And because labour costs are decreasing in real terms, it becomes marginally more viable to throw manpower at a problem than to buy expensive machinery. One timber harvesting machine and a forwarder does the work of about 20 experienced lumber-jacks, as two men in ten hours can fell, stack and clear about 100t of timber using machinery - but in a low wage economy, those 20 men pushing a back-breaking 8hr shift are actually cheaper, as those two machines with drivers cost about £400 per man-hour.

I see your theory, but your figures are a bit out IMO.

No way would even 100 men keep pace with a forwarder. This is the bit that really can't be replaced, unless you start to involve teams of oxen or horses- or indeed other cheaper machinery.

Harevesters can indeed be replaced, and in large hardwoods they are still not viable so those are felled by hand.

What tends to happen in low wage countries is that the felling and fiddly stuff is done with the cheaper labour, and cheap, rudimentary horsepower is utilised (an old Soviet tractor for example)

£400 per hour is a rather high for a forwarder, harvester and two drivers. Timber harvesting has always been a race to the bottom, and it's all about throughput. A majority of operators are making a wage whilst keeping on top of the finance, but no more.

Going back to the principle of the argument, are you saying that machinery and diesel costs are rising that much faster than labour costs? I'd agree that looks to be the case currently, but I fear we may be not far away from a markedly large increase in minimum wage costs. Regardless, the productivity/cost comparision between a labourer and a machine in the UK is so markedly different (in my industry at least) that the machine cost could double and I'd still buy it rather than hire another man.

I do remember stories of teams of groundworkers digging by hand in the 2008 recession rather than use a mini digger. But at £30-40 (back then) to hire a digger for the day to do the work of ten men, I suspect it was a marginal site for machine operation anyhow- probably a very tricky dig around lots of services.

 

[IanSuth]

I see your theory, but your figures are a bit out IMO.

No way would even 100 men keep pace with a forwarder. This is the bit that really can't be replaced, unless you start to involve teams of oxen or horses- or indeed other cheaper machinery.

Harevesters can indeed be replaced, and in large hardwoods they are still not viable so those are felled by hand.

What tends to happen in low wage countries is that the felling and fiddly stuff is done with the cheaper labour, and cheap, rudimentary horsepower is utilised (an old Soviet tractor for example)

£400 per hour is a rather high for a forwarder, harvester and two drivers. Timber harvesting has always been a race to the bottom, and it's all about throughput. A majority of operators are making a wage whilst keeping on top of the finance, but no more.

Going back to the principle of the argument, are you saying that machinery and diesel costs are rising that much faster than labour costs? I'd agree that looks to be the case currently, but I fear we may be not far away from a markedly large increase in minimum wage costs. Regardless, the productivity/cost comparision between a labourer and a machine in the UK is so markedly different (in my industry at least) that the machine cost could double and I'd still buy it rather than hire another man.

I do remember stories of teams of groundworkers digging by hand in the 2008 recession rather than use a mini digger. But at £30-40 (back then) to hire a digger for the day to do the work of ten men, I suspect it was a marginal site for machine operation anyhow- probably a very tricky dig around lots of services.

Back in the early 80's my stepdads mate was a groundwork contractor, i remember him getting his first little Kubota mini digger because access to a site was through an underpass and that could fit through but his next smallest (an old jcb 6D) would have had to be craned in and struggled in the confined spaces anyway.

He had priced up and worked out it was cheaper to get the Kubota than use men which his competitors had obviously priced based on - and at the end of the job he still had the kubota (which he taught us to use the bucket on which is why i remember it)

 

[Talay]

....... I fear we may be not far away from a markedly large increase in minimum wage costs. .....

I fear this too but I view it perhaps differently and less optimistically than you.

If the government continues to feed the population benefits which are hugely over the minimum amount they need to live on, repeat NEED to live on, not the amount they minimally WANT to live on, then the disincentive to work at near minimum wage levels will continue to erode.

However, raising pay levels won't solve this because the fact is there is a huge number of people claiming benefits at a level which is comfortable to live on who either have no intention to ever work or who supplement their benefits with undeclared earnings from somewhere.

I cooked yesterday, a pot of Japanese curry, which will feed 12 portions. The total cost for chicken breasts, carrots, potatoes, onions, peppers and the sauces was about £8. You can add rice from a 20kg sack I buy for virtually nothing per portion and it all freezes perfectly.

So we have 12 very good, well balanced and healthy meals for about £0.67 each and if you are unemployed or even if you are employed it is as simple as cutting up the vegetable and chicken and putting them into a large pot on the cooker. No major culinary skills required.

But Mrs Tax Credits and Mr UB40 will cash their giro, head for 20 Benson and Hedges and some bottles of Mega Bad Head Cider or something posher, a few scratch cards, some vape crap, another £20 on the mobile and head on down to the supermarket for a fridge full of ready meals costing £5+ each.

Then they will complain that their giro doesn't stretch enough despite having never paid any bloody tax in the first place.

So whilst the initial pressure will come from the workers demanding more, it is the layabout unemployed and even those working who claim benefits who we need to address. Until we do that, you cannot stop an upward spiral in wages until the customers won't pay the prices required to pay the salaries to keep ahead of the stupidly high benefits we give out.

 

[The Byre]

£400 per hour is a rather high for a forwarder, harvester and two drivers. Timber harvesting has always been a race to the bottom, and it's all about throughput. A majority of operators are making a wage whilst keeping on top of the finance, but no more.

I used the local hire prices as told to me by a local sawmill owner, so yes, it was a bit high. The 'book' cost by some Swedish economics research body was €240 for the harvester and €160 for the forwarder and took all costs inc. servicing, downtime, depreciation, etc., etc. into consideration.

But remember that those things cost real money and they have a life expectancy of just five years - after which they have a residual value of between 10% and 20% of new price (age, condition, hours, etc.) and require a massive refit.

Regardless, the productivity/cost comparision between a labourer and a machine in the UK is so markedly different (in my industry at least) that the machine cost could double and I'd still buy it rather than hire another man.

Two guys working in the warmth and comfort of a cab, wiggling their joysticks, are going to be much more reliable than 20 goofballs staggering around the slopes, dropping trees onto one another!

Our local council/government in Germany (Eifel region) used to pay people to fell and pull trees selected by a master forester out of the forests using carthorses - the only problem was that hardly anyone wanted to do it that was actually capable of doing the job properly.

 

[Newchodge]

I fear this too but I view it perhaps differently and less optimistically than you.

If the government continues to feed the population benefits which are hugely over the minimum amount they need to live on, repeat NEED to live on, not the amount they minimally WANT to live on, then the disincentive to work at near minimum wage levels will continue to erode.

However, raising pay levels won't solve this because the fact is there is a huge number of people claiming benefits at a level which is comfortable to live on who either have no intention to ever work or who supplement their benefits with undeclared earnings from somewhere.

I cooked yesterday, a pot of Japanese curry, which will feed 12 portions. The total cost for chicken breasts, carrots, potatoes, onions, peppers and the sauces was about £8. You can add rice from a 20kg sack I buy for virtually nothing per portion and it all freezes perfectly.

So we have 12 very good, well balanced and healthy meals for about £0.67 each and if you are unemployed or even if you are employed it is as simple as cutting up the vegetable and chicken and putting them into a large pot on the cooker. No major culinary skills required.

But Mrs Tax Credits and Mr UB40 will cash their giro, head for 20 Benson and Hedges and some bottles of Mega Bad Head Cider or something posher, a few scratch cards, some vape crap, another £20 on the mobile and head on down to the supermarket for a fridge full of ready meals costing £5+ each.

Then they will complain that their giro doesn't stretch enough despite having never paid any bloody tax in the first place.

So whilst the initial pressure will come from the workers demanding more, it is the layabout unemployed and even those working who claim benefits who we need to address. Until we do that, you cannot stop an upward spiral in wages until the customers won't pay the prices required to pay the salaries to keep ahead of the stupidly high benefits we give out.

I take it you have never lived on benefits?

 

[The Byre]

I take it you have never lived on benefits?

I once was dating a large girl from Scunthorpe who let me stay with her. She worked at MacFisheries and came home smelling of fish and I had to wash her down. So it was dating with benefits - does that count?