Question

[JakeGrinnell]

Hello all,

Found this forum on google nice to meet you all my names Jake .

Anyway my issue!

I wanted to know if I work for a company and I decide to leave and then approach there customers with better prices is that illegal? I mean If my company have contracts with the customers then fair enough but if they don't which the majority don't can't I approach them with better deals?

Im only 20 and have no business experience however I am working at a company which is pretty big and the part I want to take with me is peanuts to them however for me it would be a great start for a small business and it's not too much work for just me so I wouldn't have to employ anyone.

If someone could answer my question it would be much appreciated, thank you for your time,

Jake.

 

[skyhi2]

Have you signed a contract with your company ?

If the company is as big as you say,read the small print in your contract.

A pound to a penny it answers your question about customer databases.

Skyhi2.

 

[greeneast]

I've heard of people doing this before but there's usually a time limit from something like six months to two years before you can approach anyone on their database. Read into it carefully.

If this IS the case, how will you know over the next couple of years who you CAN approach safely? Will there still be enough business potential for you?

Good luck

 

[thebigIAM]

You mean, your employers have plenty of resources with which to sue you?

Not sure I'd let that stop me. I'd probably try it and see what comes of it.

I wouldn't do it while I was on their payroll though and I would be careful to respect some confidential information.

You could probably cast your net wider and pick up different clients anyway.

 

[Christine Hough]

Taking their database sounds to me like stealing and an infringement of the data protection policy of the company you are working for.

Why do you want to leave?

 

[LoudEars]

I wouldn't risk it.

Sounds highly illegal and I am sure you wouldn't get any business! These people will want to know how you got their contact details.

What industry is this in? And how can you be sure that you can source the product cheaper?

 

[oldeagleeye]

Go and do it Jake. This is the real world we live in and I have had an employee do the dirty on me that way. However. All's fair in love & business as they say - but do remember one thing.

What goes around comes around really does come around so don't go crying when some-one nicks your customer base in a few years time.

Rob

 

[JakeGrinnell]

My companys not big, it's just using this side of the business as a safety net really, they want to put the company as a brand in shops such as marks and spencers.

The buying and selling is to fund the trips to Pakistan and samples for meetings with big brands. Im only interested in the simple buying and selling side of it as the profit made would be enough for me and I want to try this while im young so if it did ever fail my future kids and wife won't starve!

I havn't signed any contract as I am on a trial period so Im under no legal obligation to even turn up as bad as it sounds.

Il have to do some serious research as risking my job in this climate isn't the smartest thing to do.

Since I havn't signed a contract I suppose it's there fault If I go of and start on my own.

Thank you all for your responses Il be back on here for sure with some more questions (sorry) haha.

Regards,
Jake.

 

[Christine Hough]

"Dishonest money dwindles away, but he who gathers money little by little makes it grow."

"The integrity of the upright guides them, but the unfaithful are destroyed by their duplicity."

When you are young is the the time to establish the foundations for you life.. so get wise now!

 

[Employment Law Clinic]

I havn't signed any contract as I am on a trial period so Im under no legal obligation to even turn up as bad as it sounds.

Il have to do some serious research as risking my job in this climate isn't the smartest thing to do.

Since I havn't signed a contract I suppose it's there fault If I go of and start on my own.

Hi Jake,

I think you really do need to engage in some serious research. You mention that because you haven't signed anything & you're on a trial means you don't have an obligation to turn up. This is nonsense: you are working under a contract of employment, regardless; that contract will also include implied terms regarding your conduct & duty of good faith towards your employer.
You may well be able to poach your employer's clients, but you need to be careful in how you obtain any information while you are in employment.

Since you don't know that you've entered a contract, I suppose it will be your fault if you go off and start on your own, and they take legal action against you.


Karl Limpert

 

[Tej]

LOL.. this is a business forum!!

What happened to ethics?

Hope all business owners sleep well... not knowing that your "trusted" employee is conniving to take your livlihood away from you

 

[Officebird]

As others have pointed out this is just plain wrong! Illegal or not it's just wrong

 

[Deliberator]

Hi Jake,

I think you really do need to engage in some serious research. You mention that because you haven't signed anything & you're on a trial means you don't have an obligation to turn up. This is nonsense: you are working under a contract of employment, regardless; that contract will also include implied terms regarding your conduct & duty of good faith towards your employer.
You may well be able to poach your employer's clients, but you need to be careful in how you obtain any information while you are in employment.

Since you don't know that you've entered a contract, I suppose it will be your fault if you go off and start on your own, and they take legal action against you.


Karl Limpert

So are you saying that if he does go off and start on his own, in competition, his current employer could/would have the right to sue him for that ?

 

[JakeGrinnell]

How is it wrong? I mean I've worked here and i've saw something that this company are not interested and will not take advantage of.

Don't make me out to be some evil person because I want to better myself, anyone in business knows that this happens regulary it's the risk of business and i know if i do this that the same could happen to me at some point but with no risk taking im going to be working 9 till 5 in a dead end job for the rest of my life.

My question wasn't "Is what I am thinking of doing ethical" because I know it's not but you get nowhere in life being all nicey nicey only if your lucky.

 

[skyhi2]

I think what employment law clinic is also saying is the method he steals ( and it is theft ) the customer database.

Would he put it on a CD or a floppy ?

Would he print it out ?

Would he Mail it ( either electronically or physically ) to himself ?

Would he photocopy it ?

Or maybe,he would just " remember " it ?

The general idea being,most,if not all of the above methods are more than likely illegal.

Skyhi2

 

[Officebird]

My question wasn't "Is what I am thinking of doing ethical" because I know it's not but you get nowhere in life being all nicey nicey only if your lucky.

It's sad to hear such cynicism from a 20 year old.

I consider myself to be ethical and run both my businesses in an ethical way, one is even a CIC.

Don't confuse taking risks with being unethical.

You have seen an opportunity. Start your business but find your own customers. You will probably find that if you try to steal the customers from your employer they won't come anyway. Business people don't always just deal with the cheapest company. They like to build up relationships and trust with companies.

Do your research and start a business properly. If you don't know how to get customers yourself then how will you manage when the ones you do steal start leaving for the next new cheap guy on the block? By that point you may well have a wife and kid to support and you'll have no idea how to gain new customers.

I'm not being mean or labelling you as evil, I just think it's wrong.

 

[Christine Hough]

You are young, the decisions you take now will become your habits.
They will colour your view of the world.
They will become your personality.

Do yourself a favour and build on solid foundations where you can face yourself each morning with a clear conscience.

As you respect yourself, others will respect you and you will prosper.

You would be very foolish to knowingly do something you knew was wrong.
And it would definitely not be securing your wife's future!!

Why not talk to you boss and explain that you think there is an untapped opportunity here.

Ask him if you can develop it for him and win respect which is more 'profitable' than a quick buck, and you would learn a great deal about business. If he doesn't want to develop it himself, you never know, he may even help you. Many business people are already helping you with their time on this forum.

You may also find out that there is a good reason which you are currently unaware of why they are not developing it, and be saved from a costly mistake.

But doing something which you yourself say is wrong will eat you up inside however the finances turn out.

Its difficult enough always knowing right from wrong in many situations.
You are fortunate that you at least know it is wrong.
The rest is up to you.

 

[JakeGrinnell]

Everyone makes valid points and I appreciate people taking the time to respond, i've looked into it a little further and the sales man who is employed here is getting the boot for not reaching his targets.

The sales man brought these contacts to the company, so whoever is employed here to take over him will in a way take his clients. Isn't that just as bad I mean the company has used his contacts for atleast 6 - 10 customers and now there removing him?

 

[spigwell]

Everyone makes valid points and I appreciate people taking the time to respond, i've looked into it a little further and the sales man who is employed here is getting the boot for not reaching his targets.

The sales man brought these contacts to the company, so whoever is employed here to take over him will in a way take his clients. Isn't that just as bad I mean the company has used his contacts for atleast 6 - 10 customers and now there removing him?

It looks like you have already made up your mind about what to do and all you want from these forums is for everyone to say good luck and to go for it.

You seem more interested in looking for reasons why it is the right thing to do as opposed to listening to the majority of the advice given.

Take a step back at look at what you are proposing to do objectively, take off the rose tinted glasses and have a long hard look. I am sure that at the end of the day you will take the decision that YOU think is right regardless of what others advise you.

Good luck with whatever path you choose to go down.

 

[JakeGrinnell]

I havn't made my mind up at all, it's far from made up.

 

[spigwell]

I havn't made my mind up at all, it's far from made up.

I can understand that.

It must be hard to choose right from wrong.

 

[Employment Law Clinic]

So are you saying that if he does go off and start on his own, in competition, his current employer could/would have the right to sue him for that ?

I'm saying that if he tries to take information (apart from knowledge/skills that he would reasonably develop in the role) - such as details of the clients, information that is owned by the employer - he may break the servant/master (case law in this area goes back to at least 1895) covenant that exists.

How is it wrong? I mean I've worked here and i've saw something that this company are not interested and will not take advantage of.

My question wasn't "Is what I am thinking of doing ethical" because I know it's not but you get nowhere in life being all nicey nicey only if your lucky.

If the company are "not interested" in their clients, their clients would quickly look somewhere else for the required services. No harm in being available to welcome them as clients, but to steal the information from your employer would be wrong.

I think what employment law clinic is also saying is the method he steals ( and it is theft ) the customer database.

Would he put it on a CD or a floppy ?

Would he print it out ?

Would he Mail it ( either electronically or physically ) to himself ?

Would he photocopy it ?

Or maybe,he would just " remember " it ?

The general idea being,most,if not all of the above methods are more than likely illegal.

Skyhi2

As established in Faccenda Chicken Ltd v Fowler (1986), IRLR 69, Court of Appeal, even if an employee deliberately memorises such a list would be breaking the duty of good faith. I think it can be safely assumed the other mediums for recording this information will be equally breaking the covenant of good faith.

Everyone makes valid points and I appreciate people taking the time to respond, i've looked into it a little further and the sales man who is employed here is getting the boot for not reaching his targets.

The sales man brought these contacts to the company, so whoever is employed here to take over him will in a way take his clients. Isn't that just as bad I mean the company has used his contacts for atleast 6 - 10 customers and now there removing him?

The company has, one assumes, paid for this salesman to bring the contracts into the company. Ergo, these are the company's clients & the company's information, not the salesman's who was simply an employee. It's quite ridiculous to suggest the salesman's replacement will take his clients; they'll be taking up work on behalf of the rightful owner of the information & contracts in place: the company's clients, not the salesman's.



Case law in this area is quite extensive & historical, which is why I suggest the OP has some proper research done. The above can be quickly established & written up in 10 minutes, but I'm not going to study the case law in depth to clarify the rights for the benefit of a forum; I do that work for the benefit of my family! Won't cost too much, but more sensible than stealing information acquired in your employment that you simply assume the employer is not interested in.


Karl Limpert

 

[JakeGrinnell]

Wow,

Ok discussion over il go look at other clients rather than these ones i don't want to be breaking the law just to earn money.

Thanks.

 

[skyhi2]

Great decision Jake,all respect to you for that.

I sincerely hope you achieve your ambitions in life,and business.

Regards,and respect.

Skyhi2

 

[Tej]

You already given up your job? today? and touting for business already

http://www.ukbusinessforums.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?p=991852#post991852

 

[skyhi2]

grass growing etc,springs to mind

 

[JakeGrinnell]

Im going to try it the ethical way

As soon as I get some interest Im out of here and into the scary world of business ownership.

Yeh so help us out people haha.

 

[Employment Law Clinic]

You already given up your job? today? and touting for business already

http://www.ukbusinessforums.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?p=991852#post991852

Im going to try it the ethical way

As soon as I get some interest Im out of here and into the scary world of business ownership.

Yeh so help us out people haha.

I hope you're not in work today Jake. As an earlier poster found today, you can be dismissed for private business activities during work time, and particularly if your employer finds your threads, you could be out of there and into the scary world much sooner than you plan!

 

[Tej]

If all you are gonna do is tout in the forum for business.. you are on a loser.

You have to wear out the soles on your shoes.. knock on doors etc...get samples made... lug them over to potential customers. Arrange suppliers/supplies/etc etc.

Should be fun. .. garment business!!.. scary.. been there.. done that.. and whereabouts are you? Birmingham? Drive down Soho Road.. every man and his dog are in the garment manufacturing/importing business.

Wish you luck.. hope you have saved up a bit of start up money

 

[JakeGrinnell]

I'm on my phone so I'm ok there lol. Thanks everyone for the advice I have learnt alot and I'm sure there's more I can learn soon