They are a bit late with the stats owing to rather a lot of sickness in the office.:|
Earl
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Public Sector Pensions
- Thread starter RedEvo
- Start date
They are a bit late with the stats owing to rather a lot of sickness in the office.:|
Earl
An old article from Personnel Today in 2008 but I doubt things have changed much:
"Sickness absence rates in public sector outstrip private sector by 55% in 2007
The gulf between sickness absence rates in the public sector and the private sector widened to record level in 2007, a major CBI/AXA report has revealed.
The annual absence survey showed that average absence levels across the public sector stood at nine days - 55% higher than the 5.8 day average of the private sector. Private firms improved their absence levels during 2007 marginally, while the public sector stood still.
The report estimated that £1.4bn of taxpayers' money could be saved if public sector organisations matched the private sector average."
"Sickness absence rates in public sector outstrip private sector by 55% in 2007
The gulf between sickness absence rates in the public sector and the private sector widened to record level in 2007, a major CBI/AXA report has revealed.
The annual absence survey showed that average absence levels across the public sector stood at nine days - 55% higher than the 5.8 day average of the private sector. Private firms improved their absence levels during 2007 marginally, while the public sector stood still.
The report estimated that £1.4bn of taxpayers' money could be saved if public sector organisations matched the private sector average."
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One of the earlier posts was spot on when it said that final salary schemes in the public sector are simply unsustainable. The problem is that no government has been strong enough to do anything about it and a rapidy increasing public sector labour force over the last few years will only make the problem worse in the future. The amount that people have to save in the private sector to even get close to the level of pension provided by the public sector makes it also impossible, not helped by over complicated pension legislation and restrictions imposed on how you access your pension at retirement age. The reality is that anyone new going in to a public sector job should not get the chance to join the scheme without contributing significantly more or their income to make it viable.
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M
MASSEY
In the public sector you get full pay for illness, in the private sector very often you don't get sick pay at all and statutory after a few days, but even then you need a doctors note to get it.
If you decide to have a lazy day in bed as a public sector worker you just get paid no questions.
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sort of but it is not quite as simple as that due to the differences between final salary and money purchase pensions.
pension planning for private sector individuals is all about making the correct decisions about your planning at the right times. As usual public sector workers are completely protected from having to make these difficult decsions themselves and are basically spoon fed the answers.
In reality final salary schemes in the public sector probably need to go completely and the state pension also needs to be radically overhauled along with more incentives for individuals to plan properly for their futures.
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The government must not back down on this, it's a once in a lifetime chance to reform the public sector.
Let's make it smaller and cheaper. Slaries, benefits etc. now exceed the private sector. When the productive part of the economy cannot attract the best people, the future for UK plc is doomed.
Let's make it smaller and cheaper. Slaries, benefits etc. now exceed the private sector. When the productive part of the economy cannot attract the best people, the future for UK plc is doomed.
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I daresay where teachers and others feel aggrieved is that the contributions they have paid have not been ringfenced for them, but used to pay people who have already retired.
Hey, guess what? The same applies to everyone's National Insurance.
So exactly these same difficulties will be played out, coming soon, to a street near you.
For decades I've believed I would live to see a prolonged period of social breakdown in this country and I always thought the flashpoint would be pensions.
In any case, the outlook for our young is unsustainable, even if they didn't have their own educations, our national debt, and stupid housing costs to pay for.
The only real way of avoiding it, as far as I can reasonably tell, is for us all to work until we physically cannot do so any more, spend a few years in the equivalent of a knackers' yard, then shuffle off this mortal coil.
It would be nice if we made it easier for older people to work part-time, so we can reasonably prolong their contribution, and it would be good if we could make it easier for younger people to start work at all. But I always was a tad too idealistic.
In any case, expect the state pension to be means tested within 20 years.
Hey, guess what? The same applies to everyone's National Insurance.
So exactly these same difficulties will be played out, coming soon, to a street near you.
For decades I've believed I would live to see a prolonged period of social breakdown in this country and I always thought the flashpoint would be pensions.
In any case, the outlook for our young is unsustainable, even if they didn't have their own educations, our national debt, and stupid housing costs to pay for.
The only real way of avoiding it, as far as I can reasonably tell, is for us all to work until we physically cannot do so any more, spend a few years in the equivalent of a knackers' yard, then shuffle off this mortal coil.
It would be nice if we made it easier for older people to work part-time, so we can reasonably prolong their contribution, and it would be good if we could make it easier for younger people to start work at all. But I always was a tad too idealistic.
In any case, expect the state pension to be means tested within 20 years.
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Here are the stats
http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id=1577
Those employed in the public sector do have higher sickenss rates than those employed in the private sector. The gap is not as great though as some may think. Statistics are compiled by the Govt - National Statistics Office
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E
Esk247
Is that a huge spike at the end of the public/private graph? e.g. when the recession hits and peoples jobs are going, the public sector start taking more holidays because of the 'stress' of dealing with all of the enquiries?
We get that a lot around here. On leave due to 'stress' after dealing with a complaint from a local about recycling bins (the lack of).
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the answer given by a teaching assistant who supports the strike by teachers when asked whteher striking is right "would you like your child to be taught by a 66 year old"
So in what age group do you think all the knowledge and experience resides.?:|
Earl
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I'm not coming down one side or the other on this, I thought their answer was food for thought tbh. Knowledge and experience = older people. Vitality, motivation, inspiration, role models = younger people. I would say teachers are at their peak in their 40's imo but I also think young teachers have a big part to play due hoepfully due to their ability to empahise with the kids....
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E
Esk247
Maybe some started to see that their jobs were at risk
which is rare for them. they must have been ever so worried poor souls!
i don't see any problem with people going on to work longer if required. I'm planning to work as long as i can, if that's in to my 70s then so be it.
One silly thing is that anyone is entitled to pension over 65, even millionaires, even when they wish to pay it back or not take any at all. They should fix that hole first.
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the answer given by a teaching assistant who supports the strike by teachers when asked whteher striking is right "would you like your child to be taught by a 66 year old
Yes.
One of the best teachers at our school was 85!
And she didn't put up with any nonsense; it was the only class where everyone paid attention because she terrified everyone with her ability to instantly humiliate any wrongdoers.
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- Original Poster
- #101
I expect teachers will be somewhat surprised by the way the public have engaged over the whole public sector pensions debate. When they realise the strength of feeling against them and the way their perks, sorry pensions, are guaranteed, something many probably didn't realise, they might just shut up and get on with their jobs.
d
d
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I don't think they will.
The few I have spoke to believe that this will affect education as teachers will choose a different profession with better pensions (not sure which profession that is!).
One even said "Imagine if this happened in a company like Tesco" - Erm it already has. They were removing final salary pensions when I was there 15 years ago!
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I think what will happen (and I think what many teachers think will happen) is is that a number of teachers will leave the profession in their late forties/early fifties, rather than continuing to teach until their retirement age. Currently, many in their 50s continue to teach for the benefit of their pension.
On the one hand, this could be a good thing for schools as it would mean an influx of young, energetic teachers. However, this pre-supposes that there are enough teachers coming into the system at the bottom.
Currently, despite an economic downturn normally seeing an increase in the numbers training to be teachers, the number training to be secondary teachers is falling. (Despite the fact that everyone seems to say the teachers have it easy ... !)
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I don't think teachers have it easy. I believe the lack of secondary school teachers may be down to the lack of discipline some pupils now have in secondary schools causing fear amongst teachers.
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A Scottish Prison officer with full service (40 years) on £28,200 sallary per year (no extra payment for weekends, night shifts or working with prisoners on dirty protests attending major incidents ect) will get around £9000 per year or £7,500 per year if he takes a lerger lump sum. Now for those of you wanting to moan at this pesnion could you work with the worst society has thrown away out numbered by 30 prisoners to one officer and a life expectancy of 5 years after you retire?
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One other point the Government do not see the Prison Service as a core service so will expect them to work on the landings with prisoners until they are 66. Who can expect this of these men and women to deal with all of lifes murderers, druggies and gangsters at 66? They are not provided with the extneded batons and CS spray ect the Police are given to control the most violent of society. This is in a day and age where people are scared to challenge anti social behaviour in their street with one person never mind up to 120 of them.
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Do I feel sorry for public sector prison officers? In short, NO, here is why....
I have a freind who had a small milk round business, he then gave this up to join the prison service, he loves it. The hours are better and he earns a great deal more, he loves his job.
If you earn £28K or so per annum, and you dont live in greater London then this is a good level of income for most people. Add to this the pension, you may think £9K pa is not a lot but this is on top of state pension and any private savings the person has achieved.
Now take Mr Private Sector Man.
To get £9K private pension he would need a fund of at least £180K (5% annuity), and probably over £200K to have an indexed linked pension.
Mr Private Sector Man would have to save an average of £5,000 each year (simplistic calc of 40 years x £5000 = £200,000 pension fund).
Now lets add this to the "basic" £28K of Mr Prison Officer, that takes his pay to £33K.
If jobs were available at £33K per annum in the private sector as a "prison officer" you would have queues longer than the M25,
Message to Mr Public Sector, you have to start paying more for your pension, period.
I have a freind who had a small milk round business, he then gave this up to join the prison service, he loves it. The hours are better and he earns a great deal more, he loves his job.
If you earn £28K or so per annum, and you dont live in greater London then this is a good level of income for most people. Add to this the pension, you may think £9K pa is not a lot but this is on top of state pension and any private savings the person has achieved.
Now take Mr Private Sector Man.
To get £9K private pension he would need a fund of at least £180K (5% annuity), and probably over £200K to have an indexed linked pension.
Mr Private Sector Man would have to save an average of £5,000 each year (simplistic calc of 40 years x £5000 = £200,000 pension fund).
Now lets add this to the "basic" £28K of Mr Prison Officer, that takes his pay to £33K.
If jobs were available at £33K per annum in the private sector as a "prison officer" you would have queues longer than the M25,
Message to Mr Public Sector, you have to start paying more for your pension, period.
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Simple question does Mr Private sector run the risk of being taken hostage, assaulted, dealing with those society throws away or wants taken away? In over 20 years of running a business I have not been assaulted, threatened to any degree or felt like I may not get home that evening, my business does not need me to be trained in self defence and more the Prison staff I know have had all and more in their time locking up those deemed to be needing removed from society but their £1600 per month is more than they deserve and they shouldnt get a decent pension (which they pay for by contributions and taxes) at the end of it. Lastly does Mr Private man go home without the worry of someone finding out his home address and what may happen to his home should the wrong client decide to send round his heavies again this has happened to the Prison staff I know. I agree some of our public sector workers are over paid and under worked but lets be honest here our Nurses, Doctors, Police, Firemen, Prison Officers and armed forces should be treated and paid accordingly.
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- Original Poster
- #112
I think the debate here has become a little emotional. The issue is, and has been for a long time, that public sector pensions are not self funding. That is to say the benefits received by public sector workers are not covered by the payments they make towards those benefits.
This, IMHO, is fundamentally unfair. Nobody is suggesting public sector workers such as those mentioned above shouldn't receive a good salary and a good pension, the question is who should pay for it and how.
d
This, IMHO, is fundamentally unfair. Nobody is suggesting public sector workers such as those mentioned above shouldn't receive a good salary and a good pension, the question is who should pay for it and how.
d
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Those than can, do, those that cant, Teach
I've only ever heard that from people who have never been into a class and seen them in action.
In my 4 years as a school governor, I saw the most incredible educational skills in practice.
on a different issue - the MPs are lecturing about 'being professional' - does anyone have any information on what the MPs pensions are? Surely they must have already implemented for themeselves, as Public Sector workers, what they are proposing for other Public Sector workers ....... I'll streak down my road if they have (and sell spectator tickets to fund the pension shortfall).
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There are plenty of private sector professionals in small town businesses who earn nowhere near £28200 per annum. That salary is stratospheric to them. And these are jobs that often involve extremely long hours in high stress situations, with targets that are challenging to the point of being unattainable. People on salaries like the above need to wake up and smell the coffee.
Likewise, as others have said, why should "we" the private sector, fund the public sector pensions for them? No one will fund ours for us.
Likewise, as others have said, why should "we" the private sector, fund the public sector pensions for them? No one will fund ours for us.
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Follow link, and read bottom of page 8. Enlightening!
http://www.parliament.uk/documents/commons-information-office/fymp/m05.pdf
I don't think we will see a streaker soon.
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