PRS\PPL Music Licensing - Know Your Rights

Is this a worthwhile thing to do for small business ?

  • Yes, it's time to fight back.

    Votes: 25 73.5%
  • No, you're wasting your time.

    Votes: 9 26.5%

  • Total voters
    34

Kerwin

Free Member
Dec 1, 2018
892
192
First of all, I apologise if this has been brought up previously in this thread, but I haven't been able to read all ten pages of it.

I'm getting caught up in the whole music licensing scene and am somewhat confused. I know I need a PRS for Music license to enable me to stream music over the internet to listeners but there is also PPL and MCPS, and I have no idea if I need those licenses as well.

There will be no live performance or providing permanent downloads or putting music onto CD or DVD.

Just imagine Spotify without the permanent downloads, and you'll see what I want to do.
 
Upvote 0

outraged Mr J

Free Member
Feb 13, 2019
1
0
Good day - well we are a small podiatry surgery and 4th generation so we have been here for over 100 years. a year ago we purchased a PRS licence after being continually bombarded with legal threats - we have a small waiting room and operate maybe three days a week. Now i see PRS and PPL have merged so i have a payment to make for the backdated PPL I knew nothing about - this is an insult. I tried to justify this and called PRS many times - always busy so my call log was over 95 mins and still no response. I sent a total of 5 emails with out any response. I now have a letter from the debt collecting agency 'Oriel' I suspect is part of PRS demanding payment in 7 Days.
I am totally outraged, i guess I will have to pay this invoice but a letter is now on the way to Mr Gavin Larkins in Leicester LE11QG - He is Head of Licensing. I have now cancelled my Licence and removed any device from the practice.
 
Upvote 0

paulears

Free Member
Jan 7, 2015
5,653
1,661
Suffolk - UK
That’s probably best and maybe play the lift type music instead which is of course one alternative to music that pays artistes bills. A real shame your ignorance in understanding that composers and performers are often different people both needing income from their work messed it up for you. Hardly the collecting agencies fault you not knowing they needed paying? Rather like me being cross for not realising the mega money I pay BT each month did not cover the phone line too and running up a big bill I wasn’t aware of. I thought I was paying for everything but I wasnt. BTs fault I assume?
 
Upvote 0
I own a B & B with televisions in each of 10 bedrooms. I pay a TV license fee which covers my 'business' for up to 15 TV's and that includes 3 TV's in my private flat within the property. There are NO PUBLIC ROOMS where guests can congregate and listen to music or watch TV. It seems the BBC/ITV etc should pay the PPL & PRS fees (which I am sure they do!) and ensure their business TV license fee is sufficient to cover their costs. The entertainment industry is notorious. both for making entertainers suddenly rich and casting them out penniless. The accountability of a middle man body collecting and distributing copyright fees from a plumber working away from home and watching the 6 o clock news which includes a musician's 'jingle' seems nebulous, weak and open to abuse.
 
Upvote 0

paulears

Free Member
Jan 7, 2015
5,653
1,661
Suffolk - UK
Here we go again........ at a recent PRS session one of the members present asked about how much a play on the radio would generate - a minute on the local BBC radio would generate £25 to the composer, and PPL would pay nearly three times that to the performers/record company/engineers. Radio 2 is about ten times the amount. Difficult to get rich on these fees isn't it. The plumber would be better off by far! At the meeting were members of all ages and backgrounds - and all of them felt that getting paid for their job was more difficult than ever now people are stopping buying physical products and downloading it. They want PRS/PPL to do more to find the people who use the music for ANY purpose and currently don't pay for it. They don't care if it's distributed by fairy dust, but they want the money that is theirs by right! Most payments now are triggered by the metadata encoded into the audio which the big broadcasters and streamers leave in - but some platforms remove it, and this is another thing the intellectual property courts are now using as proof of 'theft' - missing copyright info. If you record the music you stream by either a cable from the headphone socket, or by an app that records the audio from your soundcard, then the data won't be there - and like using photoshop to remove the copyright notice in an image, the courts tend to use this to indicate you were aware of copyright. If you use iTunes, does your music list have just the title, or does it have the album, artist name, genre (and if you click on the info option) info on the other details? If it does, it suggests you paid for it directly or indirectly - but if those fields are all empty, it suggests you bootlegged it. If you routinely steal music, empty metadata could be evidence of illegitimacy. Worth a thought maybe?
 
Upvote 0

Boot

Free Member
May 16, 2019
3
2
My wife & I run a guest house and, partly because of our advancing years but mainly because of increased competition from Premier Inns, Travelodges, Air BnB and the government's 'Rent a room' scheme, over the last few years our business has taken a sharp decline. Last year we had fewer than 200 guests and this year numbers are continuing to drop. We cannot close down our business because, if we do, we will lose the right to capital gains tax 'Entrepreneur's Relief' when we sell our house, something which will inevitably happen, and this will mean that something in the region of £50,000 will be deducted from our lifetime's retirement provision.

This post, however, is not to bemoan our business situation but to find out more about PRS/PPL licence fees.

I've written to the PRS/PPL to explain about our situation, which currently means that we have to pay to them over £1.00 per guest per night (over and above the cost of the normal TV licence) just for them to be able to watch tv in their rooms, or more accurately, to have to listen to the music which is played incidental to the programmes they choose. I asked PRS/PPL for a reduced amount to be charged to reflect our actual use but, after a five-month wait for a reply, Barry of their customer services team, is adamant that 'the tariffs are set and apply to all applicable businesses regardless of their status'. Meanwhile, until I wrote to their debt collectors to explain that I was waiting for a reply from PRS/PPL, I was being harassed on a regular basis by that agency, threatening that I and all who live at this address will have our credit status damaged if we did not pay our PRS/PPL bill immediately

My questions are about the terms of the contracts currently being sent out by PRS/PPL.

1) Please could someone explain what the word 'fitted' means, when it comes to having televisions in hotel bedrooms. I've read somewhere that if our TVs have table top aerials they cannot be used for playing pre-recorded music so a licence should not be required. Is this true? If so I'm wondering whether we might be entitled to a repayment of the PRS licence fees we've been paying for the last few years. Even if the TVs were 'fitted' to a single aerial which technically might make them capable of being used to play pre-recorded music, if they aren't being used for that purpose then why should a licence be necessary? Isn't it a bit like being fined for exceeding the speed limit just because you have a car capable of doing so?

2) Reading through their small print it appears that by applying for a licence I am also giving PRS/PPL the right to enter my property at any time without my further consent to ensure that I am 'complying' with their requirements. As I understand it only HMRC and the police (with a warrant) have this right. Can PRS/PPL really be allowed to demand this? If so what about human rights' infringements? I must say that it all seems something like legalised Mafia.

3) I stand to be corrected but I've heard from a former PRS/PPL employee that not all businesses are pursued by PRS/PPL in this way. For instance The Post office, which has countless vans on the road (each one technically the workplace for the individual driving it), pays no licence fees at all for their employees to listen to the radio whilst driving , when for smaller businesses such as ours a heavy-handed approach is taken. Isn't this the way that playground bullies behave when they come up against someone bigger and stronger than they are?

4) Technically I guess that PRS/PPL will argue that we are making money from having music played on our premises (ie. commercial exploitation). If so then we're in exactly the same situation regarding sports programmes or even the news. Will we have to pay an additional licence for every type of programme our customers might or might not choose to watch. Already the MPLC are making demands to those having a TV in communal areas, in case a film comes on that was made by one of the studios they represent. That means that, including the standard TV licence and the licence from their local authority to have public performance on their premises, most businesses such as ours now need 5 licences just for their guests to watch TV. Where will it all end?

Of course I realise that we can always remove televisions from our bedrooms altogether, and may end up having to do so, but this may impact further on our trade ~ not because guests can't listen to the music (most wouldn't care about that) but because they do like to watch the news/weather or maybe watch a match in the evening because they are away from home and they have little else to do.



 
Upvote 0

paulears

Free Member
Jan 7, 2015
5,653
1,661
Suffolk - UK
I think that many of the old 'rules' like internal/external antennas are just practical explanations people have dreamed up with no direct link to the relevant statutes. When is something permanent, or portable, for instance, but the reasonableness is for the court to decide. You also need to remember that profitability has nothing to do with it. the difference between you making lots of money and running at a loss is not a deciding factor. Did you use copyright material and make it possible for a third party to 'consume' - the proper terms for watching, listening, or perhaps even not even noticing. If you did, then the only negotiation is how much? In your case, the material you use does have a value to you.

When you buy the rights, you agree to their terms, and one of them is that you allow them to check you are using what you have applied for. As we keep saying - music is a tradable commodity. You choose how to deal with it. 100% correctly, totally illegally, or somewhere in the middle hoping they won't check.
 
Upvote 0

bodgitt&scarperLTD

Free Member
Nov 26, 2018
815
475
Did you use copyright material and make it possible for a third party to 'consume' - the proper terms for watching, listening, or perhaps even not even noticing.

Hello mate. I'm an artist. I specialise in street art- trained under Bansky and SAMO as it happens. There's not the money in it that there used to be though.

Anyhow, obvs I copyright all my stuff. That mural outside your house on the BT fibre booth? Yeah, the one your dog took a shit next to yesterday. That's the one. Anyway, that's copyright too mate, and you've been consuming it.

Pay up.
 
  • Like
Reactions: simon field
Upvote 0

paulears

Free Member
Jan 7, 2015
5,653
1,661
Suffolk - UK
Ah but you’ve put your works into the public domain by donating them for public consumption. There was some talk about tags actually being trademarks if they were registered but that also involves owning up to attaching them to property not owned by the trademark holder. I guess the owner could then invoice you for advertising charges like billboards? The one absolute is that anything you produce belongs to you unless you choose to change this. That’s what cause the I’ll feeling. Somebody want to do something with somebody else’s property without permission. That’s pretty much the bottom line. I’ve just finished a project where there are close to 50 people involved with rights of some kind. Roughly half don’t care about copyright, they’re just happy to be involved. Three have record contracts and while they don’t care, their agents and management do, and one is a bolshy one who is a pain. The upshot is an unworkable deal where nobody makes money!!
 
Upvote 0

simon field

Free Member
Feb 4, 2011
6,856
2,691
Hello mate. I'm an artist. I specialise in street art- trained under Bansky and SAMO as it happens. There's not the money in it that there used to be though.

Anyhow, obvs I copyright all my stuff. That mural outside your house on the BT fibre booth? Yeah, the one your dog took a **** next to yesterday. That's the one. Anyway, that's copyright too mate, and you've been consuming it.

Pay up.

Haha brilliant! :D

It’s a total racket ain’t it. I can understand if you’re actually making money out of it - dance classes, nightclubs, etc. But three blokes in a workshop with the radio on?

Nah, I don’t think so. The radio plays singles which are adverts for the album. They can’t have it all ways I’m afraid!
 
Upvote 0

Boot

Free Member
May 16, 2019
3
2
Ah but you’ve put your works into the public domain......]

Isn't that what broadcasters do? Broad...cast.... onto the airwaves? Into the public domain? For all to hear and see? If you're a farmer and you cast your seeds so broadly that all your neighbours benefit financially, can you realistically ask them to pay you for part of their harvest?

You didn't answer my question about The Post Office not paying for a licence. How come PRS/PPL focus on the small businesses and leave alone those with sharper teeth?

Re. Aerials and the reason I asked about them. Actually Paulears, are you sure you have your facts right? You might be interested to know that a few years ago, when I challenged the very polite but indignantly persistent telephone caller from PPL about televisions in guest bedrooms using table top aerials, he eventually agreed to go and check with his superiors about whether a PPL licence was required. He rang me some time later, telling me a licence wasn't required after all! He also apologised (wow!) and told me that he (remember this is someone employed by PPL to ring up and tell people they should be paying a licence) had been unaware of this until I'd raised it! I wonder how many people have been similarly duped into believing that a licence was required when in fact it may not have been. The law may have changed since then but, if I'm right and you are wrong, I do hope that PRS/PPL are saving some of their funds. Have you heard the story about the banks who mis-sold PPI insurance?

I know. Why not introduce a 'Sports Licence' to support the poor sportsmen and women who don't get paid any extra when hotel guests watch them on TV, or a 'News Licence' for the hardworking news team who isn't entitled to a penny from the hotelier other than from his/her BBC licence? After all, Sport and 'The News ' are all that our B&B guests want to watch really. The music is just something which is appended to those programmes and unfortunately, in the case of PRS/PPL, has taken on the role of a leech, sucking blood from the real meat of the programme.

Oh dear. I mustn't tell my local farmer that the eggs I'm buying from him are being sold to my guests at a profit. He might make me pay a commercial fee! Corny I know but it's all a bit of a 'yolk' isn't it!

It seems as if, as a PRS/PPL member you can have your cake (ie. sell your music), eat it (get paid whenever it's broadcast on air) and then have another slice too (get paid again whenever it's used to benefit someone else commercially). Mmm! I smell a politician's involvement here.
 
Upvote 0
How come PRS/PPL focus on the small businesses and leave alone those with sharper teeth?
Actually, they don't. The big chains pay large sums and usually use the music properly. Just walk into any JD Sports and there will be loud hip-hop music banging - and the shops are nearly always full of young people BUYING stuff. Wickes plays Radio Two style stuff that appeals to their old demographic. If you do use music, use it EFFECTIVELY!

You can buy a car and let it rot in a field - or you can put it on the road and drive the damn thing!
 
Upvote 0

Boot

Free Member
May 16, 2019
3
2
Actually, they don't. The big chains pay large sums and usually use the music properly. Just walk into any JD Sports and there will be loud hip-hop music banging - and the shops are nearly always full of young people BUYING stuff. Wickes plays Radio Two style stuff that appeals to their old demographic. If you do use music, use it EFFECTIVELY!

You can buy a car and let it rot in a field - or you can put it on the road and drive the damn thing!
Or, to continue with your own analogy, you could just sit in your car (in a private place of course) and listen to the radio because you can't afford the petrol to drive it anywhere. I don't want to use music Byre, 'EFFECTIVELY' or otherwise. I want to watch TV. It's like going into every restaurant in the UK and choosing mashed potato but being forced to have chips as well, because chips come with every dish whether you want them or not. Until PRS/PPL can provide us with a TV or radio that automatically mutes all music then we shouldn't be expected to pay 4 licences for the privilege of being forced to listen to it, especially when it's been paid for twice already.

PRS/PPL present themselves almost as though they are a charity working on behalf of the underdogs. Google says PRS/PPL collects over £2m a day in licence fees.
I wonder how much the salaries of the chief execs are in comparison with the amount each individual member receives.
 
Upvote 0

Noah

Free Member
Sep 1, 2009
1,252
314
Just walk into any JD Sports and there will be loud hip-hop music banging - and the shops are nearly always full of young people BUYING stuff. Wickes plays Radio Two style stuff that appeals to their old demographic.
I shudder at the thought - certainly haven't been into JD Sports in yonks - but I thought a lot of these places are using "royalty free" music these days - sounding almost not quite unlike "real" music - which freezes out PRS & co. - is this not the case?
 
Upvote 0

paulears

Free Member
Jan 7, 2015
5,653
1,661
Suffolk - UK
They’re certainly not royalty free. However rights are split Prs representing the composer and ppl representing the artist and record company. So if you use a beach boys song on a tv ad you pay Brian wilson who wrote it but you don’t pay the beach boys who performed it originally if you re-record it. We’re working on some of this type of music at the moment. The only way to not pay Prs or ppl is to use music composed AND recorded for this purpose. You get charged to buy and use it but normally a lot less than something well known. Keep in mind that we’ll known names once again, like in the 70’s make their money from touring and live performances. Downloading and streaming services pay tiny sums now. Hearing something in Wickes generates bugger all in terms of money from sales so really doesn’t count as an advert. My tribute band did a live session on Jeremy vine on radio 2. Earned us zilch and we got two live shows out of it. Hardly lucrative!
 
Upvote 0
I shudder at the thought - certainly haven't been into JD Sports in yonks - but I thought a lot of these places are using "royalty free" music these days - sounding almost not quite unlike "real" music - which freezes out PRS & co. - is this not the case?
I know my Nicki Minaj! I walked in, heard Her Minajesty and immediately bought a pair of Adidas sneakers for £70.

I'm keepin it real - no-wadda-meen? It's godda be the real thing, Bro!
 
Upvote 0

Noah

Free Member
Sep 1, 2009
1,252
314
My tribute band did a live session on Jeremy vine on radio 2. Earned us zilch and we got two live shows out of it. Hardly lucrative!
Was at a gig recently where Mark Radcliffe introduced his new 90's synth-pop duo - named Une! Bizarrely enjoyable, and I'm fairly certain he's not doing it for the moolah.

Glen Matlock was the headline the next night - rather good.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Dazdot
Upvote 0

Peter Delemarche

Free Member
May 31, 2019
1
0
See if someone can answer this.

I run a small pub. Prsppl have billed me. I play music in the pub via a jukebox so fair enough. However they're trying to charge me more for the television than the jukebox.

We play sport on the tv's exclusively. Never play music. I understand the music on adverts argument but seriously how can they justify charging more for the telly than the jukebox?

Jukebox is there to play music, the television literally only ever has sound on for football commentary. This honestly has me baffled.
 
Upvote 0

paulears

Free Member
Jan 7, 2015
5,653
1,661
Suffolk - UK
I can - but you won't take you much further forward. It's simply down the agreements the tV broadcasters have with the music suppliers. They're totally separate from the system for audio only. These combined rights are negotiated quite differently, and of course the music on adverts is quite specifically targeted. I actually agree that this makes no sense, but the deal for the musicians and songwriters has got a lot worse for audio products with pennies more common than pounds. TV is still lucrative. The consumers of the music, even though with adverts it's not even wanted, generate their income. the other thing is you have the TV, you could play radio 2 on it, and licensing is all about what you could do rather than what you actually did.
 
Upvote 0
See if someone can answer this.

I run a small pub. Prsppl have billed me. I play music in the pub via a jukebox so fair enough. However they're trying to charge me more for the television than the jukebox.

We play sport on the tv's exclusively. Never play music. I understand the music on adverts argument but seriously how can they justify charging more for the telly than the jukebox?

Jukebox is there to play music, the television literally only ever has sound on for football commentary. This honestly has me baffled.

This could possibly have something to do with the increased rates for hospitality businesses coming into effect from July? Though if memory serves there is a separate tariff for Jukeboxes - as stupid as that sounds.
 
Upvote 0

ShabWeasel

Free Member
Jun 3, 2019
3
4
I've no problem with the task assigned to the PRS or the rules/artists/licence holders they represent, neither do I take issue with the idea of ensuring artists are paid for their work.

I do strongly believe that the issue is misrepresented in the overall 'media' portrayal of the rules (such as the BBC article saying "...all recorded music..." requiring PRS payment) and that PRS abuse their authority to demand payment where it isn't required.

An earlier comment touched onto the main problem; that PRS can claim having heard music, with no further evidence or information, and invoice accordingly.
This is rather like the common issue of BBC licensing 'agents' claiming they saw 'live broadcasts' being played on a screen and being taken at their word in court - they really can't tell that I'm watching Red Dwarf on Netflix, from DVD, or a live broadcast repeat on BBC2.

Sadly, this does lead to situations such as occurred to a good friend of mine who opened a craft ale bar in town. They don't play radio or even own any televisions.

They do, however occasionally, have local independent musicians play live in the evening. They also have CD's from some of these artists whom they have paid for the rights to play them in the establishment for customers. *All* compositions are original - no covers etc. (is a rule for artists playing there) and the licensing arrangements for recorded music are held in writing.
Simply put, PRS do not - in any way, shape, or form - represent the artists involved. Edit - was confirmed with artists that no other licensing existed, in many cases was just the artists' own recording of their first performance in the bar burned to a cd-r.

Unfortunately, they have received numerous demands from PRS who claim entitlement to a licensing fee.
Despite being provided with copies of the individual licence agreements for the recorded music and the T&C for any live artists, they keep getting the snotty letters and legal threats on the basis of "playing a music recording"......

So I do really agree with OP that a serious re-education effort is needed, both for the (business owning) public and PRS themselves.
I know it's a difficult job to differentiate between infringing and non-infringing uses on the fly, not to mention that no PRS employee could reasonably be expected to recognise *every* piece of music they represent but, a little tact and a lot less heavy handedness would go a long way to restore confidence in the system; something which would probably 'sell' more licenses for far less effort.

You can see this in effect with Spotify etc.

While that may not compensate artists very well - a different matter entirely - they make music EASY.
For just a few quid you get access to any music you want, anywhere (again, artist compensation is a different issue - they could easily double their price and lose a, profit wise, negligible customer base).

No fussing around with the infernal iTunes or Zune (lol) store and restrictions on devices - it's just there to play on demand.

A simple, clear set of options and the supporting information is always preferred.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: kulture and Noah
Upvote 0

paulears

Free Member
Jan 7, 2015
5,653
1,661
Suffolk - UK
If you didn’t do it, they won’t convince the judge will they. The trouble is that they find so many people cheating the system that they just steamroller when they think they are right. Oddly venue reporting forms seem to have gone now which means my own meager titles don’t get any reported plays. It’s a flawed system but it’s the only one!
 
  • Like
Reactions: ShabWeasel
Upvote 0

ShabWeasel

Free Member
Jun 3, 2019
3
4
If you didn’t do it, they won’t convince the judge will they.

True, but a lot of hassle and cost for small business owners - even if they are completely in the clear. Luckily, in this case the owner had family working in law so got free advice - many aren't so lucky and you can't afford to ignore these kind of threats.
Added to this is that bailiffs ('enforcement agent's' if you prefer) are commonly deployed before it even gets that far - not acting on behalf of the court but under direction from the party issuing the invoice. Not a good look for a business or a way to get businesses on their side. Edit - used to work IT for major 'enforcement agency'; consumer debts were usually just purchased in the typical manner but business debts were always on commission from the original 'creditor'. It's just paperwork to get a 'warrant' from Northants processing centre which, legally, is worth little more than a Final Demand letter - yet a couple of guys in a van who've previously requested police assistance to ensure no 'breach of the peace' occurs often resulted in swift settlement of the debt (even though, on several occasions, it was statute barred). Little surprise I noped out of there ASAP!

The trouble is that they find so many people cheating the system that they just steamroller when they think they are right.

Precisely, and why it needs to be clarified for both sides - maybe as mentioned a 'token case' would result in clarification due to the precedent set and, hopefully, provide a rigid and consistent framework over what responsibilities both parties are bound to ie. Pay your dues, and don't just steamroll every case.

Another option could be a blanket licencing system (almost like BBC licencing where the lone viewer subsidises the family/household of 8 paying the same fee) rather than the complexity and misinformation that exists at present (why my friend decided to skip the whole PRS in the first place, not realising the paperwork unleashed in spite of their diligence on the matter).

How PRS handle the funds received is the subject of a separate discussion IMHO.

Simplification and better understanding of the system encourages greater uptake and reduces 'enforcement' costs, leaving more (theoretically) in royalties to artists and reducing the average cost to businesses.

The core of the problem lies with the current attitude of publicising the costs but privatisation of profits - rather like the bankers in 2008, major license holders are happy to pass the cost of heavy handed enforcement onto the public/businesses whilst any real gains in income are swallowed up by admin costs and shareholder returns before throwing the scraps to the artists themselves. Why else do so many (even well established) artists rely on income from live shows and merchandise instead of record sales/royalties?
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: businessq
Upvote 0

paulears

Free Member
Jan 7, 2015
5,653
1,661
Suffolk - UK
I have to say that I can't think of a better system to get money for my music use. I'm a member of PRS and PPL there is no other option for me. I see what PORS and PPL do, working for me. I'm a member by choice. The facts though are that their payments to me have gone down, as I shift my music by alternate (a download site) methods. The music I have placed with them will generate income if use by some organisations happens. I am happy with that. Frankly, if they get even stricter and harder on people, it's OK with me. I don't think their current system works that well for me, so if they can find a model that finds more people using without paying, it's good. if they get it wrong, I'm happy for people to take action too - these things happen.
 
  • Like
Reactions: ShabWeasel
Upvote 0

Mark Langdown

Free Member
Jun 7, 2019
1
1
Hi. First time on this forum. I can’t see that this has been answered before so any help - advice appreciated.

I own a Camping & Caravan Park and have recently been contacted by PRS to ask about how we use music on the site. The short answer was that we don’t. They then enquired if we have music in reception - no. Do we have any other public areas with music - no. Then the bombshell - do we offer rented accommodation - yes - we have 10 Static Caravans. Do they have televisions in them - yes. Then came the reply - we need a PRS Licence - not a PPL Licence.

My point was that yes they have the ability to listen to music on advertisements, but surely this has been paid for already by the advert producers? The answer was that as a business I am letting the public listen to the music on adverts, and they have the ability to listen to music on Freeview - so I am liable.

Is this really a Public Performance? From what I have already read this is an ambiguous term and no clear definition. So I have just received an invoice, plus a 50% penalty for my previous avoidance. Grrrrr. I genuinely believed that my TV Licence covered this point - but it looks like this is not the case.

My question is - has anyone else out there had a similar experience and what was the outcome?

An interesting thought - do car hire firms have to pay for a PRS Licence? The principle is no different as they are hiring a car with a radio and heaven forbid anyone in the car can hear music.

I look forward to hearing from anyone.

Regards

Mark
 
  • Like
Reactions: Dazdot
Upvote 0

paulears

Free Member
Jan 7, 2015
5,653
1,661
Suffolk - UK
I think the car situation is not as close as you might think because years ago, the old car radio licence was scrapped and the BBC, and others made sure that radio broadcasting to vehicles was covered in their deals done with the copyright agencies like PRS and PPL. you're getting caught by the hotel and guest house rules, which the BBC and other broadcasters specifically do not cover. the general way it works is that public broadcasting rights paid for by the originator are for broadcasting direct to the public. This wording appears on all CDs and records - 'unauthorised public broadcasting" being the critical term. You providing them with it is not authorised use, so you have to pay.
 
Upvote 0

Alijay

Free Member
Dec 19, 2019
1
0
Hi. First time on this forum. I can’t see that this has been answered before so any help - advice appreciated.

I own a Camping & Caravan Park and have recently been contacted by PRS to ask about how we use music on the site. The short answer was that we don’t. They then enquired if we have music in reception - no. Do we have any other public areas with music - no. Then the bombshell - do we offer rented accommodation - yes - we have 10 Static Caravans. Do they have televisions in them - yes. Then came the reply - we need a PRS Licence - not a PPL Licence.

My point was that yes they have the ability to listen to music on advertisements, but surely this has been paid for already by the advert producers? The answer was that as a business I am letting the public listen to the music on adverts, and they have the ability to listen to music on Freeview - so I am liable.

Is this really a Public Performance? From what I have already read this is an ambiguous term and no clear definition. So I have just received an invoice, plus a 50% penalty for my previous avoidance. Grrrrr. I genuinely believed that my TV Licence covered this point - but it looks like this is not the case.

My question is - has anyone else out there had a similar experience and what was the outcome?

An interesting thought - do car hire firms have to pay for a PRS Licence? The principle is no different as they are hiring a car with a radio and heaven forbid anyone in the car can hear music.

I look forward to hearing from anyone.

Regards

Mark
I own a guest house and every so often receive threatening phone calls from them. I have just received a bill in the post. I don't have radios and I have a tv hotel license which I think should cover this - it doesn't mention the necessity of additional licenses - otherwise what is the point of having such a comprehensive license. I am not making money from any music and the bedrooms are privately rented not public. Indeed when my partner and I have been out and heard music on the radio or from live performances this has often encouraged us to buy the records/cds which I would imagine benefits the performers and they are paid each time a piece of music is played. I have asked the Tourist Board and other tourism bodies for advice over the legalities of such a company and no one can offer definitive advice which urgently needs to be addressed. A few years ago I wrote to the PRS people (who are a private membership body and not a government body) with my comments and never received the courtesy of a reply to my enquiry. Is there a legal answer?
 
Upvote 0

paulears

Free Member
Jan 7, 2015
5,653
1,661
Suffolk - UK
Of course there is a legal answer - and it's been stated so many times now that I despair. In this world individuals have rights - quite a few. They have the option of enforcing them themselves, or using another individual or body to do it for them. I own my music, as do every other composer. You do NOT have the right to use my music unless I, or my agent agree some terms. My music of course is dull, boring and not remotely designed for the masses - but let's assume for a moment that your licence to play TV programmes for the hotel is in force and you are as 'legal' as you think you should be. The BBC, for example, if they use my music will tell PRS and they put a tick in the box for me as the composer of the music. I get paid for writing it. As I also own the recording rights to it, this is controlled by PPL and PRS will pass it on, and I get paid for the use of the recording, which also might mean a payment for the piano player I used, and the drummer? Now the tricky bit. Your TV licence is simply a licence to have in your hotel television receivers, which now is broadened to include internet connected TV. The BBC may well collect the money, and they keep detailed records of the content, but what if you are watching one of the music channels, or an old documentary channel, or even something coming from youtube or facebook. You as the licence holder are paying to have the equipment - you are not paying anything to me, and if one of those programmes has my music in it, how do I get paid? By PRS (and PPL, who you also need to be paying). You probably think this grossly unfair, and I do understand that, but you have no right to use anyone's music without their permission. With apps like Shazzam, identifying music is so easy nowadays, but if we assume you are an ultra keep it legal person, how on earth would anyone pay for the music they use without PRS or PPL? Last month I made the grand total of $5.70 for music used from the net, and my music was streamed in roughly 20 countries, paid at the rate of less than half a cent per play. If I was Robbie Williams I'd make lots, but I'm not. I like the idea of PRS charging you for using music, even though I'll probably never get any of what you pay myself - but others will.

Check the wording of your TV licence and it explains what you are paying for. It doesn't do anything for the music content at all. PRS don't really deal with the public as they complain so much. I don't want them wasting their time on answers that you won't like or agree with. I'd rather they paid it to the artists who earn the money. I walk through Tesco, and there's a little stereo player, playing music. I wonder if they pay for that? I hope so.

You probably have a booze licence. If you sell lots of alcohol and few soft drinks, or vice versa, the licence variable. You also pay VAT on it too, your drinks licence doesn't also cover the VAT. If you take empty bottles to the rubbish dump/recycling plant they too probably charge you - again, the licence doesn't cover disposal.

The legal answer is simple. You cannot use (consume is the proper term) things you don't have rights to - and music is protected in law. It belongs to the person who wrote it, or performed it. Same as photographs or video images, poetry, paintings or anything people dream up in their heads. If you download a picture from the internet, print it out and stick it up on the wall of your hotel you get the same reaction from the owner of the image - that's mine, who said you could use it?
 
  • Like
Reactions: The Byre
Upvote 0

Chris Ashdown

Free Member
  • Dec 7, 2003
    13,380
    3,001
    Norfolk
    I want to start a TOA (Talking on Air) rights company, where we represent all the people being interviewed on the radio every day and collect a fee from commercial places for their royalty and may even include TV and maybe papers who quote people like MP's and so forth

    Potentially (Clinton loves this word) great picking

    Anyone want to sponsor my company

    Byre could be employed as technical advisor
     
    Upvote 0
    Talking on the radio or indeed anywhere else, is indeed protected. If you do an interview or appear in a play or do anything 'broadcastable' you will sign a release form assigning all rights to the production company and they assign their rights to the distributors or the broadcaster.

    In many cases the person doing the talking will be paid - for example, a voice-over artist will get about £2,000 for a single gig and actors a great deal more.

    This entire topic was debated to death when radio was invented, but every now and then, people pop-up who refuse to accept that intellectual property is every bit as much a set of valuable assets that must be protected as a house or a car.

    If @AllJay doesn't like them apples, how would he like it if others made free use of his car without his permission?
     
    Upvote 0

    Latest Articles

    Join UK Business Forums for free business advice