PRS\PPL Music Licensing - Know Your Rights

Is this a worthwhile thing to do for small business ?

  • Yes, it's time to fight back.

    Votes: 25 73.5%
  • No, you're wasting your time.

    Votes: 9 26.5%

  • Total voters
    34
People truly believe they shouldn't have to pay, so this impacts on their reasoning. Of course PRS are a monopoly! For goodness sake - have you never heard of individuals or groups using agents to carry out services they are unable or unwilling to do? You use an estate agent to handle a house sale because you really would struggle to market your property on your own. They get you your sales fee, and keep some of it.
People truly believe they shouldn't have to pay, so this impacts on their reasoning. Of course PRS are a monopoly! For goodness sake - have you never heard of individuals or groups using agents to carry out services they are unable or unwilling to do? You use an estate agent to handle a house sale because you really would struggle to market your property on your own. They get you your sales fee, and keep some of it.

Perfect example to prove MY point. The estate agent example is ideal: the market works well, everyone sees the point of what they do and Estate Agents are very much NOT monopolies!

Also, you don't pay the Estate agent a fee every month for the joy of living in the house they helped you purchase. You don't license your house.

Licensing is really where the scam lies. Really, I go into a shop and buy a CD. I physical have it in my hands, but I have to pay every time I use it because I didn't buy it, "I licensed it". Absolute con and the fact that this thread is so emotive with so many people commenting rather suggests your dismissal of our complaints is both arrogant and short sighted.

We are your customers and we resent and hate the system you force upon us. Something will give and I strongly suspect that will not be to the betterment of music creators.

"People truly believe they shouldn't have to pay, so this impacts on their reasoning. "

This is a straw man argument intended to take the light from the real issue. People have sound countless times in this thread alone that they are not adverse to paying for music. We are simply adverse to it being an ongoing cost when what has really happened is a one time purchase.

Of course PRS are a monopoly! For goodness sake - have you never heard of individuals or groups using agents to carry out services they are unable or unwilling to do?

Yes, I have. The fact that there are Agents (i.e. more than one) suggests, again, not a monopoly. To turn it around - can you name another industry that has a forced monopoly artificially layered over the top that requires the entire industry to do its bidding (both on the supply and demand side)?

"People truly believe they shouldn't have to pay, so this impacts on their reasoning. Of course PRS are a monopoly! For goodness sake - have you never heard of individuals or groups using agents to carry out services they are unable or unwilling to do? You use an estate agent to handle a house sale because you really would struggle to market your property on your own. They get you your sales fee, and keep some of it."

"The buyers mainly run dance schools, so are 'nice' people, yet one person spends fifteen quid, and then tries to give it free to her friends. When the download link fails, they no doubt send it to each other as mp3s!"

This is an alarm bell that the music industry has been raising every 30 years or so since the dawn of recorded music. Every single time a new innovation comes about, it's the end of the music industry (records, cassettes, cds, now streaming).

You must take a little responsibility for accepting the massive reduction in production costs (selling 1000 MP3 downloads costs you precisely the same as selling 100), in that it necessarily makes it far easier, and consequently far more likely, for people to abuse the system. I have it in my hand. I can make a copy with a single click of a button. The barriers to copying, a system created entirely by the music industry to save costs of its own, are too low. In fact, I'd go as far as to say it is the music industry that created, and encouraged people to copy by creating and distributing the tools with which to do so.

And by charging them well over the odds, every single time they play a song, obviously.

Something is clearly not right in an industry where (and I'm guessing a little, but I'm not far off) 7% of the participants command 90% of the proceeds.
 
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Mr D

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Perfect example to prove MY point. The estate agent example is ideal: the market works well, everyone sees the point of what they do and Estate Agents are very much NOT monopolies!

Also, you don't pay the Estate agent a fee every month for the joy of living in the house they helped you purchase. You don't license your house.

Licensing is really where the scam lies. Really, I go into a shop and buy a CD. I physical have it in my hands, but I have to pay every time I use it because I didn't buy it, "I licensed it". Absolute con and the fact that this thread is so emotive with so many people commenting rather suggests your dismissal of our complaints is both arrogant and short sighted.

We are your customers and we resent and hate the system you force upon us. Something will give and I strongly suspect that will not be to the betterment of music creators.

Perhaps music therefore is priced too low.

How would you have felt over time if instead of buying music cheap you had been charged several times the price to cover in the future all sorts of licensing?

Its a small minority currently who are going to be charged extra but rather than having them pay for the extra how about all music buyers paying higher price to cover?
 
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I and I suspect a lot of people on here would be more than happy to pay a higher fee for a commercial usage situation. The main issue is the ongoing, 'fee in perpetuity' that people object to.

And please stop saying it's about stealing (not you Mr D!). It's not about stealing, it's about being ripped off when you want something at what the majority consider to be a reasonable price. What is happening with PRS is PRECISELY what the anti-monopoly rules were set up to avoid.
 
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paulears

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So much IP product is marketed like this, and has been for so many years, I fail to see how you can dismiss it because you personally are a consumer rather than a producer. If you don't like it, don't buy it and we're all happy. There is no scam. One agent or multiples, it is still not a scam - agents work for you and take a fee or commission. There is power in agencies, and with PRS following established legal precedents, I approve 100% of them looking after my interests.

Interestingly I got this from them this morning.
#LoveMusic: help us save music online – sign the petition by 12 September to support the EU Copyright Directive

In July, our CEO Robert Ashcroft wrote to inform you of the result of the European Parliament vote on the Copyright Directive. This included Article 13, which aims to update legislation in order to boost the small amounts that some technology firms pay out for music played online.

Unfortunately, in July, 318 MEPs voted against the proposed changes, against 278 in support. We strongly believe many MEPs were swayed by a campaign of misinformation and fake news, spread by the multi-national technology companies. There were claims that users would be blocked from sharing and creating content and that Article 13 would “censor” the internet. This is simply not the case.

The next vote takes place on 12 September, and we urgently need your help to make sure that musicians and creators are fairly rewarded for their work online. If the current situation continues, it is likely that fewer creators will pursue a career in songwriting and our music industry will suffer as a result.

The music industry has come together to fight for the best possible future for everyone who relies on music to make a living. Join us to support music creators and make the internet fair.

They are doing a good job from what I can see, and if consumers don't like what they are doing, tough, because the membership see them as the ONLY method of generating income from these sources. Sure, we can market ourselves, try to deal direct, but PRS do it for me, so how is that bad.

Nord20. I understand you don't like the system, so feel free to not use the music. It really is your choice. However, you are right - it is a buyers market, so as you wish to pay nothing, I wouldn't want to licence it to you - we're both happy. Consumers have no right to demand better terms, their only option is to not purchase. You surely cannot be arguing that you have a right to set your own terms that the seller must follow? This is a business forum and I assumed we all had business in mind - as in making money, not losing it.
 
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Ok, so, yes, not participating at all is certainly an option, but I don't think it's really what you want to see happen is it?

What I don't understand is why you are so keen to defend this particular system when it demonstrably leads to:

People simply playing music and not declaring it, as they feel the price is not acceptable.

People illegally sharing their music collections.

People playing less music than they otherwise would, as they can't afford it.

And a huge cost overhead trying to police a system that relies too much on trust and resorts too often to 'catching people out'. And the policeman is for profit, so they take a nice fat chunk off the top.

It's making an enemy of the industry's customers and that can't be a good thing in the long run for the music producers.

In tax terms (because PRS is essentially the taxman), having a 90% tax rate won't bring in more revenue than having a 40% tax rate, as people will be less motivated to find ways to avoid paying the tax.

There is a price point that will maximise the revenue for music producers and I think we are a long way from it.
 
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When you hear the sound of a band playing a song on the radio, it's an advert. It's how they sell records, you know - make money? Designed to make you want to buy the album (if you like it).
No. Records, downloads, whatever sell in tiny amounts - truly tiny. The last time Jenifer Lopez had a number one hit in the UK was back in about 2003 or 4 and it sold 1,600 copies.

Now they measure downloads and YouTube hits and these generate fractions of pennies. The days of pushing your great opus on Radio Caroline and becoming a millionaire are over.

Only the megastars earn the Big Bucks and they do this only through live performances.
 
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Mr D

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No. Records, downloads, whatever sell in tiny amounts - truly tiny. The last time Jenifer Lopez had a number one hit in the UK was back in about 2003 or 4 and it sold 1,600 copies.

Now they measure downloads and YouTube hits and these generate fractions of pennies. The days of pushing your great opus on Radio Caroline and becoming a millionaire are over.

Only the megastars earn the Big Bucks and they do this only through live performances.

So people with say a number 30 single will sell.... a hundred copies from a fanbase of 40,000?
 
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simon field

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Only the megastars earn the Big Bucks and they do this only through live performances.

I don't dispute that - or the fact that the music industry had it good for years when they were charging £16.99 for a CD!

So, once again - if I like the sound of the latest Fleet Foxes single, not only will I buy the album but if that's good too I'll go see them live. So that right there is advertising at its finest!
 
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Dimo

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This system is reputed to work but in effect it is impossible to accurately distribute royalties. Why? Because the PRS apparently licenses businesses playing a radio in the workplace but they do not know whether it is Radio 1, Classic FM, Radio 4, Heart or any other station. At any time it may be any mix of stations during any one day. Is the company going to report to the PPL PRS Ltd stating which stations were listened to each day and at what time? Nonsense, of course they aren't.

As I have said before, my beef is that this sytem is tantamount to a money-making scam because dues from airplay across the networks cannot possibly be directed accurately to the relevant musicians who created the music aired.

I had one of my compositions played on the radio a few years ago. Jane Bloggs' Hairdressers may have listened to it; they pay the PPL PRS, but they may equally have been listening to Woman's Hour on Radio 4.

So how exactly are royalties distributed? PPL PRS Ltd is charging small businesses for having a radio playing and they are taking their money for 'TheMusicLicence' to listen. The idea is that the music creators receive a royalty for airplay. But the PPL PRS is not an all sentient eye in the sky. Or is someone going to claim PRS PPL Ltd monitors every station across the globe and lists every piece of music played so that all the relevant royalties can be paid? -Less their 12.5% cut of course.

Royalties paid from radio play is seriously flawed and having the likes of Joe's Back Street Garage requiring a licence to listen to the radio is a con. Besides, radio stations already pay a royalty for what they air!

When was this 'listening licence' established exactly (I can only find details for live licensing). Why wasn't it around 30+ years ago? They wouldn't have got away with it.
 
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Mr D

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About that!

I do buy everything that Nicki Minaj produces and I actually stomp up the cash for an old fashioned stone-age CD. But then she is a real artist with depth and meaning to her work!

Yes there are some great artists out there. Not that I will buy the music but will download it from Spotify.
The rare stuff that is hard to find I do keep an eye out for. Stuff that never made it to cd even, or official bootleg.
 
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Mpg

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I've just had a quote for £1200 from PRS for an identical site that is being charged £301 per annum. I'm going to do a little more research into what weve both been quoted for.

I think as digital medium becomes more popular in the future PRS/PPL will become easier to manage. For instance We will be playing Background music via spotify so there will be records hopefully records to be used in the future.

The system does seem flawed. What if we were a Queen appreciation bar and ONLY played Queen they wouldn't get their fair share.

However as a photographer I completely understand the need for a "rights" licence
 
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Scott-Copywriter

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So how exactly are royalties distributed? PPL PRS Ltd is charging small businesses for having a radio playing and they are taking their money for 'TheMusicLicence' to listen. The idea is that the music creators receive a royalty for airplay. But the PPL PRS is not an all sentient eye in the sky. Or is someone going to claim PRS PPL Ltd monitors every station across the globe and lists every piece of music played so that all the relevant royalties can be paid? -Less their 12.5% cut of course.

I imagine they create statistical models by taking a representative sample and then extrapolating that across the group as a whole.

For example, track a few dozen stations across an evenly weighted sample (the songs they play, how often etc) and then extrapolate the stats to give a broad industry view.

This is how TV ratings work. I think in the UK there are about 5000 households that have signed up to have their viewing habits tracked. This sample is then used to indicate TV ratings for the 25+ million homes in the UK.

The same model applies in psephology, which is the science of voting and opinion polling. Samples of a few thousand are used to judge the opinion of millions. And while they're rarely perfect, they're also rarely out by more than a few percentage points, so it's surprisingly accurate given the relatively small sample size.
 
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I own a restaurant (100 seats)
This year my PPL PRS bill is £390 ( which has not gone up from the last year by much at all)

BUT when compared to my Licensing Act 2003 - Annual fee of £180.00 is ridiculous, that is £180.00 for the whole year for me to sell alcohol !!!
I am not a busy restaurant although I have 100 seats I cant fill them every day, we barley use 80 on a Saturday night, the calculations are all wrong (i don't mind paying for the right to play music, but in proportion to the amount of 'turnover' I do) its the same for business rates, I know its a big building but my local community has not the money where they can dine out 2 to 3 times a week, we don't get any passing trade.


I received a call today from PRS to say they are sending out agents to all establishments that hold a license to come in and listen to the music you play so they can figure out where to pay the royalties.
I was asked ..what platform do you use ..I said soptify
Can the agent see the list of music ...Why not
Would you like the agent to buy a drink while he is there .... OF COURSE
Is there a dress code ....ummm fancy dress !!



If I pay £180.00 for my alcohol license which generates me 60% of my business turnover..I don't see how PRS PPL can demand £390 from me because its not going to yield what the Alcohol license is !! VERY CLEVER LEGAL SCAM (I'm in the wrong business, lets make money from what other people have done)
 
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Mr D

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Without any music what would be the sales of your products? The difference between that and your current sales is the value of your license to you. Now is that total higher or lower than you are charged?

Perhaps an office or workshop can claim to not receive financial benefit from the music. Not sure I'd bother with a silent restaurant.
 
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That £180 is the cost of the license that grants me the license to sell alcoholic products to people that walk in my door .. The £180 [buys me no Alcohol!!]...unfortunately 'I do that' ..LOL


That £390 [Buys me no music!!]



That £390 is the cost of the license that grants me the license to play music to people that are in my restaurant (for the purpose of drinking and eating) to listen to music that I play from spotify..

{I pay £120/year to spotify for that} ..

Plus my music system that I have paid for plays the music, speakers through out the restaurant, amplifier, wires, powered by electric every day {Something goes wrong who pays for that!!] and also my TIME to hand pick the music (Make a Playlist) after understanding what my customers want, balancing the young aged clients and old aged people, different types of music who does that work for free...I'm like a composer in my own business !!
Where are my royalties for my hard work …..



I've just received another bill from MPS ...motion picture solutions obviously copying PRS PPL but its not music its stuff you put on the TV ...I have a Business TV license !! 1 TV in the whole place and only plays BBC 1 but yet they want some money from it ….



Advertising, 6 miles down the road there is a City …. the biggest restaurant in that location pays £1200 for a full page advert in the local paper, I can't but if I wanted to place an advert it would also cost me £1200 (I cant afford it) who gets the bigger bang for buck …..

obviously this is a choice, but PPL PRS is not a choice you have to pay on wrong calculations, the algorithm to work out cost is wrong, like I said I don't mind paying for it as long as its relative.
 
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Without any music what would be the sales of your products? The difference between that and your current sales is the value of your license to you. Now is that total higher or lower than you are charged?

Perhaps an office or workshop can claim to not receive financial benefit from the music. Not sure I'd bother with a silent restaurant.

Office workshop ...Silent OK
Restaurant you can not have silent ...

The cost charged by them is inflated for the yield it produces (Obviously there is no method of measure but there is a method of comparison (which I have already mentioned in my previous post) ...they should have a better method of calculation and have a unique charge for different business concerns …

(pay cuts across the directors then employ more staff internally and not externally (the music researcher that is coming to my premises is from an external company [higher costs])
 
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paulears

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Scalloway - brilliant! I'll use this one next time the subject pops up AGAIN.

Actually, the sheer ignorance from intelligent business people just amazes me. When you sell your wine and spirits, does any of that go to the brewer? No. They got paid when they sold the stuff to the brewery or wholesaler. They even know that at every stage of the chain, margin is applied and they don't care if it's sold at Lidl first cheap or in a posh restaurant at many times that price. People have licences for all sorts of things nowadays. Some provides rights to do things, some are legal requirements for a process to happen, and people make choices. If you buy your wines and spirits for resale, you have a choice of supplier and price in some establishments, but in others you are tied to the supplier and may even have a fixed price. People treat PRS and PPL as some kind of demons who are ripping people off big time. In truth, they are simply acting as agents for the owners of what you wish to consume. You can pay, or not pay - there is a choice. You can not pay PRS/PPL and buy copyright free music. The people who own the music can even set crazy rules if they wish. If you had a themed night in your restaurant, and dressed the waiters in circus costumes and played music from the Greatest Showman - a payment to PRS will not stop Disney banging on your door if they so wish. Those songs coupled with circus costumes are banned, and like Getty Images, they are very happy to enforce it. If again, like Getty, you have already done the deed, then expect litigation. The 'assumption' you could do it can cost you dearly.

Scalloway's comment is not just a made up example. It happens quite a lot, and PRS and PPL have the facility for copyright owners to put in a manual claim, as so much now is done on stats rather than real reporting. Rights can be very expensive. In a theatre (licences premises for booze with the silly cheap licence annually) if they take £20K at the box office for a non-stop music show, then they can expect to pay 1% of that to PRS for the night - multiply that one up for a yearly total.

I've yet to hear a single argument to how better pay the people for the music they produce. A few years back, the big names stopped touring as they got more income from sales of CDs, now CD sales are falling quickly, and on-line streaming services do their stuff. Trouble is the income from millions of downloads can be OK, but for those with a few thousand, it's such a tiny amount that as income, it's no good to live on. Hence the rise in touring again. The booze analogy is quite a good one because it is customer choice driven. If you charge more for the drinks, but have a place people want to come to, it works. The price of a gin and tonic in some bars would buy you a bottle in Tesco - but people are willing to pay it. You can hardly compare background music with booze. Playing the Worzels non-stop might lose you trade, but playing a Spotify feed is not going to gain you customers compared to another venues different Spotify feed. Most people use wholesalers - places to buy everything. Is PRS not a wholesaler of music? You are perfectly free to decide it's too much and stop using them. What you cannot expect is to set the price. Imagine talking to the brewery and telling them they're too expensive and you demand to have the beer at 25% of the list price. Music is a consumable commodity that is entitled to be traded in the same way as a bottle of beer. Spotify is a bit like sale or return. Use whatever you like - but you need to licence it, just like beer!

All these posts and not one viable alternative has been created, just endless complaints about how unfair it is ....... to the consumer, never the producer.
 
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Mr D

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Office workshop ...Silent OK
Restaurant you can not have silent ...

The cost charged by them is inflated for the yield it produces (Obviously there is no method of measure but there is a method of comparison (which I have already mentioned in my previous post) ...they should have a better method of calculation and have a unique charge for different business concerns …

(pay cuts across the directors then employ more staff internally and not externally (the music researcher that is coming to my premises is from an external company [higher costs])

So if you can't have a silent restaurant what yield does the music bring?

Not sure about your pay cuts across directors comment - business having trouble?

Music researcher coming to premises? Sounds like the company utilising someone able to do something rather than spend the money internally to do the work. Companies appear to often buy in services from outside themselves if not able to do the work themselves.
Researcher presumably able to travel within an area and isn't needing to be recruited, employed then later sacked by the company itself.
 
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All these posts and not one viable alternative has been created, just endless complaints about how unfair it is ....... to the consumer, never the producer.
This!

Recording a single song at a professional level costs about £50,000 and about £500k to promote, if you want a hit in the UK and $3m in the US. Just listening to it costs the producer nothing, so I want it for free!

Beer costs about 5p a pint to produce, 10p for a decent pint, so I want a pint or real ale for 10p.

Steak and chips with side orders of veg and salad - that's just £8 worth of produce, if that, so I want it for £8.

A bottle of good table wine costs £1 to £2 to produce, so I expect to get it for that price.

A good bottle of classic vintage Piesport Eiswein costs no more than £8 to produce, so I expect to be able to come into your restaurant and pay just that and no more!

The marginal cost of software is zero - it costs Microsoft or Adobe NOTHING when you download their products. Now explain to them why you should get MS Office or Adobe CS for nothing. I'm sure that they'll understand!
 
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Restaurant you can not have silent ...

actually you can, and they work well.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/hide-and-seek/201407/the-psychology-restaurant-music

"some of the finest restaurants do not play any music at all, reasoning—in my opinion, correctly—that, when the food is truly great, any extraneous stimulus can only detract from it. The music does an injustice to the food, and the food to the music."

"At the other end of the scale, a restaurant that places profit above dining experience often plays loud music with a fast tempo that subconsciously puts diners under pressure to eat more quickly, even if that means that they are less able to enjoy their meal. But caveat emptor: such music also suppresses appetite, leading to less food and, in particular, less drink (and dessert) being consumed. Appetite is in part a function of the parasympathetic nervous system. Loud, fast music activates the sympathetic nervous system (the ‘fight-or-flight' response), which opposes the parasympathetic system and thereby diminishes appetite. "

"It is very telling, I think, that, in general, we do not play music when eating at home."
 
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I was asked ..what platform do you use ..I said soptify

listen to music that I play from spotify..

{I pay £120/year to spotify for that} ..

Oops

"Can I use Spotify at my business or school?
As laid out in our Terms and Conditions, Spotify is for personal entertainment only and not for commercial use. This means it can’t be broadcasted or played publicly from a business, such as radio stations, bars, restaurants, stores, dance studios, etc.

If you want to stream music in a commercial environment, check out our friends at Soundtrack Your Brand."

So you might want to check up on that too.
 
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Noah

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That's only 25p VAT and beer duty for a micro brewery, so I expect Wetherspoons to sell me a pint for 35p.
I know we're straying further off topic, but you might be interested to know that the case for small brewers' relief made to the government was to promote growth of independent brewing (i.e. savings would be invested in the brewery operation), and explicitly NOT for cheap beer.

Sometimes reality strays from the ideal, of course.
 
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Mr D

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I know we're straying further off topic, but you might be interested to know that the case for small brewers' relief made to the government was to promote growth of independent brewing (i.e. savings would be invested in the brewery operation), and explicitly NOT for cheap beer.

Sometimes reality strays from the ideal, of course.

Why do people set out to make drinks? To get some cheap drinks themselves maybe?
 
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Andyw

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I've had two phone calls from pplprs today and I'm interested to hear opinions on my particular set of circumstances.
I run a small backpackers hostel. We have two televisions here, one in the communal lounge and one in a room. Pplprs have today advised me that because my guests may turn on the tv and listen to some music, or the copyrighted bbc jingles... we owe £108. When asked what would happen if we chose not to pay, pplprs advised me that they would pass the case onto debt collectors.

I've found it very difficult to source the specific information surrounding the use of TV's. Does anyone have a definitive answer regarding this?

Thanks.
 
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glengraving

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After some letters and phone calls asking for large amounts of money, the business I work for assured PRS/PPL that we hadn't been playing our radio in store for some time. The issue was dropped, and I daren't turn the thing back on.
It's a shame really, tried to convince my boss that the 80p or so per day was a worthwhile expense when you have customers impatiently waiting on our services - just to lighten the mood.

I think the fees should be lower for the smallest of businesses. My boss doesn't object to paying in principle, but the amount they were asking for was too hard to swallow (the fact that it was previously two separate bills was an exacerbating complication).

The idea of having playlists of old recordings which have expired copyright is interesting. I'd love to have some old Jazz recordings playing, many of which were made in the 50s - in a couple decades, are we going to experience a boom in copyright-free music, with small businesses gradually having access to larger and more iconic catalogues? The swinging 60s restart in 2030 - many of our favourite composers of that period had the grace to die young.
 
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Mark Jenkins

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Does anyone know... is there any action being taken by anyone or group to challenge this self appointed, self regulating, self rewarding behemoth? If not, we are all going to have to keep paying up. There are not many of us with principles so strong or pockets so deep to be able to take on a group with £700,000,000 in income.
 
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Does anyone know... is there any action being taken by anyone or group to challenge this self appointed, self regulating, self rewarding behemoth? If not, we are all going to have to keep paying up. There are not many of us with principles so strong or pockets so deep to be able to take on a group with £700,000,000 in income.
Nobody - but as you have an inn in Wiltshire, how about you get to play music for free, as long as local musicians can come and drink beer at your place for free?

Fair exchange?
 
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