PPL, are they allowed to use bully tactics now?

Davek0974

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I think you may have answered your own question.

I'm no accountant either, but the PRS for Music's accounts makes simple sense to me. I'm not even sure where you are getting the "net profit" reference since this term isn't mentioned in the PRS for Music's main company accounts. The report talks about money coming in, income, and then money going out, money paid to artists/publishers (roughly 84% of income), with the remaining 16% going to admin/running costs. Simply put, PRS collect money for artists/publishers, and pass most of that money (84%) on to those artists/publishers, at an operating expense of (16%) (2009 figures).

That's my non-accountant layman's terms explanation. Perhaps an accountant here might be able to provide an explanation in more official accounting terms, although to the layman (like us) the layman explanation might be easier to understand. I hope that helps.

Fair enough, as I said, im no accountant :redface:

The details were pulled from companies house data.

As said before, I've got no beef with anyone being paid for any amount of time for their work to be used, would love to be in that position, the only issues I have in this discussion is over the charging for radio listening, charging small companies for the same and the disgusting way PPL gather their 'data' then issue an invoice at the same time as copying it to a debt collector.
 
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Thanks Davek0974, I was wondering when this might get back to the point of the thread

"PPL, are they allowed to use bully tactics?"

We have debated over and over again and I have found it genuinely interesting but I would like to know what can be done about their tactics, a note for Paulears, I assume you have not been on the receiving end of one of their 'phone calls, If I was signed up to PPL and receiving little benefit I would disassociate myself from them, I would honestly be too embarrassed to be linked with them.

What can be done? I like one or two others have been onto Watchdog, I have written to my MP both in my home constituency and work constituency, I suspect that is not politically correct but we will see, has anybody else? or are we in it just for the debate? :rolleyes:
 
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paulears

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Cliff Richard was on TV today talking about this very subject, as he's the pioneer of getting copyright extended to 70 years that happened recently. In essence they asked him about the money, and did he need it. His response was no, he didn't need it but the actual work BELONGS to him - and nobody has the right to just use it. That seems to sum up what many on here appear to think - that they have the right to use it, and to have to pay for it because of the circumstances is unfair. Sir Cliff would not agree.

Remember that you only own the bit of round plastic, what is on it is not yours, you just have a license to use it. It's not yours, you are just the custodian. The copyright owner has granted the use of it subject to certain conditions - it's very simple.
 
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Cliff Richard was on TV today talking about this very subject, as he's the pioneer of getting copyright extended to 70 years that happened recently. In essence they asked him about the money, and did he need it. His response was no, he didn't need it but the actual work BELONGS to him -

In that case he should keep it and not sell it to the public and do us all a favour.:eek:

Talk about having one's cake and eating it.

Earl
 
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AndyBlue

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Paulears can you please advise me - I play music in my Barbers and so I have to have a licence to cover the composers costs etc etc etc. I also provide magazines and newspapers - Can you please provide the details of where I send the money for the Reporters/Photographers work as surely I am doing them out of an income ? If someone comes in my shop and reads the paper or magazine they will not now buy that paper/magazine so lost sales for publisher/distributor. But if they come in my shop listen to a song and like it they my actually go and buy that song so more money for the composer/distributor - So which one do I have to pay a fee for ??? Yep the one that make sthe person more money. This is why it is viewed as a tax because it is simply illogical. I am sure the rules started with regards venues that played music for dancing etc which I do agree with, as you are gaining business from that activity. But when it is just background noise how can you be depriving the composer of anything ???
Paulears you have still not responded to my request for advice here. Would hate to think it is because it blows your argument right out the water.
 
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D

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Paulears you have still not responded to my request for advice here. Would hate to think it is because it blows your argument right out the water.

Well, its not much of an argument. If it really worked like that barbers, restaurants, clothes shops etc would all be selling CDs of the music they play. As I have never seen a barber selling CDs I think it is because it just does not work like that.

Why not put up a sign saying who provides your electricity and see if the company will let you have it for free?

Its a bit like people wanting to use my photos on their websites for free in exchange for a credit. How on earth would that help me sell more licences for real money?
 
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directmarketingadvice

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You're actually purchasing a book though. Not paying by the amount of times you read it.

Don't libraries have to pay royalties every time a book is borrowed?

(Or is my memory playing tricks on me?)

I await the day PRS Phone to find out what stories I read my Daughter at bedtime so they can invoice accordingly.

If you buy a CD, you can play it in your family home... you don't have to pay extra if your daughter walks in the room.

Steve
 
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I play music in my Barbers ... I also provide magazines and newspapers - Can you please provide the details of where I send the money for the Reporters/Photographers work as surely I am doing them out of an income ?
When Reporters/Photographers provide work for newspapers/magazines it is usually on the basis of one-off payments for their work for a particular publication, regardless of how many copies of that publication are sold. In general the music industry does not work like that.
 
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D

Deleted member 59730

When Reporters/Photographers provide work for newspapers/magazines it is usually on the basis of one-off payments for their work for a particular publication, regardless of how many copies of that publication are sold. In general the music industry does not work like that.

Oh no we don't. I charge a lot more for a big circulation magazine than for a small circulation one. That is fairly standard in the industry. I also charge an extra fee if they use the image again.

Photographers also have a collecting society for photo use. Its called DACS. That covers photos in magazines and books when they are copied. I get about £250 each year from DACS,
 
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Davek0974

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Paulears, is it possible to define the amount you actually do get from PPL/PRS?? I guess its pretty slim, I have no qualms about artists getting paid but if i were in the same boat, i would be kicking up a stink about the collection agency creaming off millions in profit and only paying a pittance to its members who are in effect, their primary source of income.

DO you pay to be a 'member'? Do you receive more than your membership fee back in royalties each year?? Please educate us as to how the system works Paulears.

It seems as though these two companies are in a blessed market - no material costs but plenty of income.

Any ideas, anyone? Do you get more out than you put in?
 
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Oh no we don't. I charge a lot more for a big circulation magazine than for a small circulation one. That is fairly standard in the industry. I also charge an extra fee if they use the image again.

Photographers also have a collecting society for photo use. Its called DACS. That covers photos in magazines and books when they are copied. I get about £250 each year from DACS,
But what you are talking about are still essentially upfront pre-arranged fees for a particular publication, which is essentially the same as what I'm talking about. Obviously publications with larger general circulation figures will be charged more, but it is still upfront.

The music industry business model is complex enough as it is. I really don't think it is helping to keep this discussion on topic by dragging in other industry models with their own complexities (e.g. photo licensing).
 
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paulears

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This is actually, as far as I know, a bit of an untested area. The TV license fee is a payment to have television receiving apparatus on the premises and applies to business and domestic premises - the only real area where business rather than domestic doesn't really matter. However - the exclusions and terms make it clear that the actual content is not protected - as in if the BBC went off the air you can't complaint or get a refund!

The BBC do have different rules for business use of on-line services, including i-player.

The music that is played is the problem. The BBC only license and pay for it for domestic use, and they're not bothered about business use - leaving the users to add on their extra cover with the collection agencies. So to a degree, the delivery system is immaterial, it's the consumption of it that is. It's only a guess, but I'd expect PPL and PRS to treat music from the TV the same as the radio.
 
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paulears

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No they haven't, in the same way the Health and safety Exec never banned ladders - urban myths abound on this. The most common one is that Happy Birthday to You results in a fine. Technically, the copyright is still in existence, but the owners of it have no desire to collect royalties from members of the public singing it!
 
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paulears

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Because DON'T have a license...

However - this is a tough one because, it's very easily sorted out, and dance schools do it all the time. Many dance schools have their shows recorded, which they then sell on DVD for a profit. I did one last week where the parents were told that (believe it or not) that photos and video were not allowed for Health and Safety reasons, when the real reason was that they wanted to sell their own pay for version to offset costs/make a profit.

PRS/MCPS/PPL have schemes to allow people to do this - to get around the almost blanket ban on recording these things, but yes - you have to pay. Especially when a dance show is based exclusively on playing copyright material. No exclusions for the 'aaah' factor. However, if you really wanted to do it, take out the limited manufacture DVD license and present it - as this would give you copyright clearance, AND you can do it in advance, as an individual. However, I'd bet that the rules merchants at the YMCA would never have heard of it and still prevent you doing it. always worth checking.

To be honest, copyright is frequently used in kids dance shows to cover their bums when people are concerned about having a room full of dodgy perverts filming kids.

At the dance show I mentioned, one parent complained about another using their iphone during the first night - she was just filming her own child, but another parent objected to this. For the organisers, it's much simpler to blame Health and Safety and copyright reasons than pervert paranoia.

Many cameramen (not me) belong to the Institute of Videographers, who have a deal with PRS/PPL and issue their wedding members with stickers to put on DVDs proving copyright has been paid to wave at priests, organists, choir masters and registrars who attempt to stop wedding audio being recorded. There's a growing feeling in this industry that people are attempting to charge extra for a wedding, if the music is recorded.

People nowadays are simply more aware of copyright than ever before so it appears that it's a bad thing - when it's always been protected, but nobody really bothered. As money gets tight, I can't blame the owners from wanting payments for the use.
 
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S

shadesofblue

This is actually, as far as I know, a bit of an untested area. The TV license fee is a payment to have television receiving apparatus on the premises and applies to business and domestic premises - the only real area where business rather than domestic doesn't really matter. However - the exclusions and terms make it clear that the actual content is not protected - as in if the BBC went off the air you can't complaint or get a refund!

The BBC do have different rules for business use of on-line services, including i-player.

The music that is played is the problem. The BBC only license and pay for it for domestic use, and they're not bothered about business use - leaving the users to add on their extra cover with the collection agencies. So to a degree, the delivery system is immaterial, it's the consumption of it that is. It's only a guess, but I'd expect PPL and PRS to treat music from the TV the same as the radio.

I think it's fair to say the majority of what the PRS do is an untested area. How many individuals make it to court and just pay up due to the threatening nature of the PRS.
 
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paulears

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I do have to apologise. In my ignorance I really didn't believe they'd have done that. It does make my efforts to put the pro copyright case look foolish, and they've made themselves look ridiculous and jobsworth.

The really daft thing is that by the strict terms of the Act, then she was 'performing' so I can see where they came from - but really should have applied some common sense.

I stand corrected, even if it happened a couple of years ago, it was still a daft decision.
Paul
 
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First thanks to Mike for the Firefox tip, can now post again without getting a head ache.

I have had a positive u turn from PPL once my MP got involved, they have admitted making a mistake, supposedly writing to me to apologise and have cancelled my 2 invoices, interesting to see that this has been put in an email to my MP who has forwarded it to me, I have had absolutely no communication from PPL themselves, in fact I contacted Oriel collections today who informed me that on the 25th of this month they had been advised by PPL to pursue the 2 outstanding invoices so we shall see.:D

PPL have also stated that they intend to look at their policy for demanding licence fees from lone workers using a radio, if anyone here who is actually having problems with PPL would like to see this information I would be happy to pass the document on by private messaging so please contact me, it's not because I have any respect for PPL but it did involve my MP and out of respect for him I would prefer to do it this way.
 
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paulears

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It's actually really nice to hear that you have a responsive member of Parliament - and luckily yours actually does understand how the copyright system works. If you can convince PPL (and presumably PRS too - as if PPL drops a claim the other should do likewise?) then that's because you've convinced them the rights are not an issue - which is fair.

The problem is just assumption by them, isn't it. I don't think anyone can defend bullying tactics - but from my own perspective, at least I do see them trying - and in this case, getting it wrong.

The bigger issue is the fact that you on your own, couldn't convince them and needed external heavier weight input - to be honest, I couldn't rely on my own MP to understand the issue. I think your MP is Chairman of the Culture, Media and Sport Select Committee - so gives him a bit of an insight into my area of the industry.
Paul
 
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This is a typical tactic of making it appear that they have some authority or the law behind them, PPL and their debt collectors use the fear factor to make honest hard working people pay up, yet has anyone ever actually been taken to court? I am based in Scotland where the small debt claim can be heard in the area where the alleged debt has occured, I challenged PPL lady on the telephone about this and she then told me it would be heard in the High Court, I laughed so much she hung up on me and since then I have heard nothing. My advice shred every document they send unless they are by registered delivery, hang up on them and do not be intimidated by this nonsense,
 
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jsaila

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Well it took a while but the letter to my MP did the trick. PPL have pulled off the Oriel hellhounds and withdrawn their erroneous invoices. The CEO's letter sent to my MP made me want to throw up and was designed to show them in a good light. He went on about being sorry we were disappointed in the approach from PPL, (ie. the harrasment of my wife listening to a news program on the radio because she might hear some embedded content) what did he expect???
The lettr went on about 90% of British musicians earning £16k or less, (I bet he doesn't) I'm not sure of the relevance of this point, water and muddy spring to mind; but what realy took the biscuit was the following "PPL has a tariff which caters for smaller music users which halves the fee ..." yet when I pointed out their invoice was wrong they said they were sending our case for further legal action.
I'm glad its over now but we should not have been put through the stress in the first place.
I dont think this company is helping the music industry by their interpretations and actions.
Finally I was dissappointed by the lack of response from the BBC especially as it was their news program that my wife listened to, she doesn't any more.
 
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Jim Elston

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Sorry to jump on an old thread but PRS hounded my pub until we went out of business. Just local bands, not making a living, just having fun and getting up and keeping music live. Apart from the pub I had I am a singer/Songwriter/Guitarist and have been for over 40 years. I despise both PRS and PPL. I am so flattered when I hear others perform my work and there is the other bit. I know and can prove that a local covers band played a certain number by a well known rock band and that resulted in 5 people buying the original album and then more sales were generated in back catalogue sales, so the copyright holder benefited by us as a venue advertising their material resulting in tangible sales. I have heard my music played and then noticed an increase in downloads. If this is repeated across the whole country pubs, clubs, small venues, cafes, hairdressers, waiting rooms anyone playing live or recorded music is effectively advertising and it results in real sales, so why should the copyright holder benefit twice and why should we pay to advertise their material

If we had a commercial radio station on who pays for the additional advertising that we are paying to provide?

Record companies used to pay huge amounts in bribes to DJ's and radio stations to get their music airplay, so we provide that service yet have to pay for it??? Somewhere that does quite ring quite right.

The truth about pub music is a people who make up the audience want to hear stuff they know, classic rock, classic 70's and 60's Motown and so on. Most of the copyrights are held by the labels or corporations so the charges do not benefit impoverished musicians... The listening public in the pubs tend to leave if you start playing obscure music, worthy though it might be.
 
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paulears

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It's nice to hear that you write your own songs and don't mind other people performing them. It would make you smile a lot more if say, Jeremy Vine played one of your tracks on the radio, and it got picked up, and even more people downloaded it, or streamed it. You'd be very pleased, I expect. At what point would your airplay generating nothing but goodwill generate enough potential income that you would start to pay attention? Perhaps if the revenue would be £100, you'd not bother. How about £1000? £10,000??

You could become wealthy, or a charity donator. The fact is your product has become an income stream. New guitar, new PA?
As you say, audiences do want popular tunes, and the notion that the copyrights don;t benefit the musicians is plain wrong - that is what PPL and PRS do - pay their members. PRS pay the composers, and PPL pay the musicians and the record companies in whatever proportions the people involved agreed on.

I know and can prove that a local covers band played a certain number by a well known rock band and that resulted in 5 people buying the original album and then more sales were generated in back catalogue sales, so the copyright holder benefited by us as a venue advertising their material resulting in tangible sales
With respect, I've done the same thing in my tribute band - we sing their songs (and pay the PRS out of the box office) and people who may not have heard some songs buy the original band's recordings) but that is NOT what the PRS is for. It's performance rights - you play the song and perform it, and the composer is legally entitled to a fee. That's it. Without PRS, they'd get nothing, and frankly, even with PRS, they still probably get nothing unless the venue does a return, and many don't. Some venues pay a blanket percentage based on ticket sales, others pay for exactly what they do. When I hear some of my music played - I always note it for PPL, because I might get something, but my PRS and PPL income has dried up in recent years, so they really only benefit the big names. Even so, I agree with the principle of me having the right to let people use it or not, as the rights are mine, and even though I too like hearing people using my material, I'd like the right to control it. Two years ago I got a few quid when one of my tracks was used in a dodgy movie made in California - who registered the use. What about if I had not wanted this kind of movie to use my music? Rights are all about personal choice.

I'm clearly biased, I know this - I'm sorry your pub failed, but PRS were doing their job in the same way the VAT people do theirs, the gaming machine people do theirs and the licensing authority do theirs.
 
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paulears

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You do not need to pay PRS or PPL for playing music that belongs to people who are not registered as members with them. There are still rights of course - if you consume or exploit their music and they are happy - fine, if they are not happy, you owe them?

One important thing - PRS do sometimes assume, but all you need to do is assert the facts. They do not control the music you are using, you have permission to use them, so go away.
 
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