Potential Threat - Passport Photography

kevin555

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Feb 5, 2007
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Do you not see the irony in trying to get people to sign an epetition in favour of keeeping a system that requires paper.

What about the A4 paper manufacturers? Did you not think of them?

Ok, so you say I'm taking the p**s but I'm actually trying to make the point that times move on, systems change etc etc. Got to move with the times. Anyways, how many people actually use a photographer to take passport photos? A miniscule proportion I'd guess.

Surely, you're only making this point because you stand to lose the raison d'etre of your business - please read up on Polaroid and Kodak and get out while you can.


Apologies if this has been mentioned before but there are an awful lot of posts to wade through.
 
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Unless I am missing something, this petition is akin to a coal carrier complaining that no one wants him to delivery coal any more because of those evil electricity companies installing that 'electric heating' thing in people's houses.

If the service you offer can be done better, cheaper and more conveniently in another way then the writing is on the wall, however much you may dislike it.
 
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Mark Amies

Free Member
May 18, 2010
130
19
London
The premise put forward by the PMA ( Photo Marketing Association ) is as follows -

"The Current Threat

Agreements between the Driver and Vehicle Licensing Authority and the Post Office have resulted in 750 Post Offices up and down the country installing booths to capture portraits and signatures electronically and process applications for Drivers Licences on-line without the need for a paper portrait.
The DVLA is entering a new phase where all licences will have to be renewed every ten years. This in effect means the capturing of 2.4 million portraits each year.
Applications for licence renewal can be made at the designated post office on-line or by post when a paper portrait will be required. The DVLA highlights the on-line process in its application materials and seems to steer the applicant toward the PO rather than by post. The effect of this is that in time the number of paper portraits for DVLA purposes will decline.
At the same time as this is happening the UK Border Agency is also steering applicants for residents' permits for foreign nationals to the PO on-line process.
How many businesses and individuals will be affected:

• 350 number of shops at risk in the UK
• 5,000 number of jobs at risk in the UK
• £50 million amount of revenue the sector will lose if current policies do not change.
The PMA believes that a pragmatic, cost-effective solution is possible through a greater co-existence between the Post Office and private sector printed photographic network.
A reappraisal of the 2009 decision would allow for a sustainable business model to be developed taking into account the needs of the DVLA, the Post Office and the private sector photographic market.
Post Office staff could be allowed to scan printed ID photographs from the existing printed professional market as opposed to Post Office staff taking the actual photographs. This would have no adverse impact on Post Office counter jobs."

http://www.savethephotographers.co.uk/
 
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kevin555

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Feb 5, 2007
307
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Mark

Your link to "save the photographers" is a misnomer - photographers in general do not take passport photos! Hands up anyone who has gone to a 'professional' (I don't mean a staff member of snappy snaps) photographer to get a passport photo done.

surely it should be called "save the photo booths"

I know where you're coming from but it really isn't a good position - while your quoting £50m revenue lost in one industry, surely that's a saving for the customers, i.e. just about everybody on this forum who needs a passport.

The film makers (kodak) have started to go bust, and paper manufacturers will surely follow as this industry has gone digital and the demand is simply not there as it was, except for high quality family portraits / weddings / school photos and, of course, home printing.
 
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Much as it seems to be unsympathetic I totally agree with the above. It has nothing at all to do with professional photography. No one gets a pro to take a passport photo.

As I said earlier I lost my previous career when Polaroid went bust. This happened to them because of bad management that failed to acknowledge the inevitable. My suggestion would be to diversify and get a contingency plan in place. If this was reversed it would only be a temporary respite in what is the inevitable move to digital.

350 number of shops at risk in the UK
I am sorry but I have to say that I find this and the other figures hard to believe. It looks like scaremongering to me. Surely there are few if any true photographic businesses surviving on ID pictures alone?

.
 
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Mark Amies

Free Member
May 18, 2010
130
19
London
I don't know how the PMA came up with that figure of 350 , it is very specific. However I can tell you that there are a fairly sizeable number of photo retailers that will be doing passport and id photos and they are reliant on that trade. It is not just the passport photo, the customer who comes in for the photo may also sepend on other things , or come to the store again.

I have heard some store owners will make 40% of their sales on passport photos. Now, yes , you can say that if they are that dependant on one area, it is there own fault, but I can only report waht I have heard.

It is not scaremongering by the way.
 
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Mark Amies

Free Member
May 18, 2010
130
19
London
Mark

Your link to "save the photographers" is a misnomer - photographers in general do not take passport photos! Hands up anyone who has gone to a 'professional' (I don't mean a staff member of snappy snaps) photographer to get a passport photo done.

surely it should be called "save the photo booths"

I know where you're coming from but it really isn't a good position - while your quoting £50m revenue lost in one industry, surely that's a saving for the customers, i.e. just about everybody on this forum who needs a passport.

The film makers (kodak) have started to go bust, and paper manufacturers will surely follow as this industry has gone digital and the demand is simply not there as it was, except for high quality family portraits / weddings / school photos and, of course, home printing.

Kevin, thanks

I am not quoting - the text was lifted straight off the campaign website, and I did not write that either.

Yes the title is not the best, and as I have said I have told teh PMA and PhotoMe that this is an issue. If they fail to heed me, then it wasn't for trying.

Your comment about 'film makers' is not strictly correct, sorry. Kodak have not 'gone bust'. The news media in the UK made a real hash of that story.

http://www.kodak.com/ek/US/en/Kodak_Transforms/Home.htm


It is true that a number of companies have moved on - AGFA, Konica Minolta, being notable examples, but that was sometime ago. Konica moved into scientific. Agfa left the business more than 3 years ago.

Home printing is all very well, but it is still hard to beat teh sort of quality and size/finish options a lab can do.
 
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Richard SPC

Free Member
Mar 12, 2012
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0
This will be my first post on this business forum, and hopefully not my last.

I am a lab owner who takes 2000+ ID photographs per year so even those of you who are nothing to do with this line of business will agree that it represents quite a substantial amount of income.

Yes I have voiced my opinion with my MP as have others over this development that will see the Post Office with effectively a monopoly over the whole thing. However, in the initial stages of the roll-out it will have some, not massive, effect on people like myself, as people will still have the option to come to me and have a hard copy made which they can then send away. There will be a good many folks who will still have their passport/licence renewed in this way because they will not want to wait around for ages in a queue at the PO. Presently my local PO send people to us for photos eventhough there is a booth in the PO.

The problem that I can see further down the road is that if by some miracle, the Post Office manage to get this initial roll-out to work without their usual cock ups that the PO seem to have, I can see the Government making it so that ALL passport/licence applications will have to be done at the PO thereby giving them a TOTAL monopoly on the situation.

If this does happen, and believe me it will at some point, it will cost jobs. Not as many as are being banded around though. There is a certain amount of scare mongering going on. My ID photos run at probably 60-70% passport/DVLA stuff and the rest are the ones I would not loose with the new system.

I fully agree with many of you business posters that times change and we must adapt. I get well set up for digital photo printing back in 1998 so am fully conversant about getting in early on. The biggest problem with this whole new PO system is that the equipment or opportunity is NOT being offered to anyone else. We are not even been given the chance to say we can't afford the buy in to it.

That is wrong in my book.

The Post Office/Royal Mail has been going to s**t for many years which is why the Government is throwing OUR money at it to try and get it on an even keel again. Surely rather than throw money at it as a whole it would be better to keep the things that are working and offload the others onto the private sector as I am sure they would make things work.
 
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Atilla

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Aug 25, 2008
1,066
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W. Yorks
I am sorry but I have to say that I find this and the other figures hard to believe. It looks like scaremongering to me. Surely there are few if any true photographic businesses surviving on ID pictures alone?

.

Of course it is.
I like the bit about the DVLA entering a new phase - licences renewed every 10 years....Not exactly new is it!
 
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L

last one standing

Hi all I understood that this forum was for "Retail A forum for 'bricks and mortar' retail businesses" well most real business people understand what a monopoly is and this is what will happen if this pases into law/practice after which you yea all of you will not have a choice of outlet or indeed a choice of price as a monopoly can almost charge what it likes.
As to the misunderstanding on this subject.

Where did most photos get taken say...last year, yes not in post offices but in shops.. Phamacies/Photographic stores/multiples like snappy snapssome photo booths etc, none the less by people/shop/outlets who are diectly responsible for the 'I dont like that one, can you do it again? ' am i realy that ug....yes most of the time' guess what, we are open to competition.

Open your eyes and ears dont be daft, what on earth do you realy think some numpty is going to do at apull down screen in abusy post office when you want a new photo!
 
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a Photographic Professional does not NEED to be a photographer just to work in a photographic area and printing/processing is indeed that. I'm a printer, it's my profession therefore I am professional.......

hell I see lots of so called "professional" photographers who don't know how to use a camera at all and how they get away with charging to ruin someones wedding I don't know, there is a certain level of people wanting cheap and it's certainly a case of you get what you pay for in a lot of cases.

Now if these labs close as they can't subsidise the business with this sideline then a lot of other services will be lost too

You might not use them, but who will you turn to if you need an old photo restored? are you really going to stick those precious family photos to the royal mail or would you rather go bricks and mortar?

what about replacing your old video tapes to dvd or digital format? the shop that offered it as a service will be gone... sure stick 'em in the post I'm sure the £36 compensation will replace the video of little johnny's first steps....

And while you frown on them people do still like photo gifts and sure they're available online but what if it's delayed or lost in the post? well there's someones birthday ruined.

It's not just about the passport images for most,
 
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There are 610 Game shops under threat, in fact the whole gaming market will move from B&M retail with the next generation (and this to a smaller extent) being aimed at downloads rather than physical purchases.

We need a petition as it's twice the number of Game shops under threat than Photolabs.
 
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Devil's Advocate follows ...

I'm a printer, it's my profession therefore I am professional.......
I think a few people may dispute that.

You might not use them, but who will you turn to if you need an old photo restored?
I'll do it myself. Why would I trust my valued photos to "professionals" like you who have no qualifications?

what about replacing your old video tapes to dvd or digital format? the shop that offered it as a service will be gone.
No it won't. If there is a demand for this someone will be there to service that demand.

And while you frown on them people do still like photo gifts and sure they're available online but what if it's delayed or lost in the post?
I cannot even remember the last time I lost anything in the post. We have one of the best postal systems in the world.

.
 
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Banned- Are they under threat because the Government are bringing in legislation to take their business away?

If not, you are just being inflammatory in your comments let alone childish, I had a little respect for you as you had genuine questions.

Now you're just looking to argue for the sake of it and the respect has gone.
 
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BDW please allow my take explain the word professional to you.

pro·fes·sion·al/prəˈfeSHənl/

Adjective:Of, relating to, or connected with a profession.
Noun:A person engaged or qualified in a profession.
Synonyms:adjective. vocational - occupational
noun. pro - practitioner - specialist
I am engaged in Printing, it pays my wages, therefore I am professional

I am also both qualified and highly experienced in my trade

Banned is a professional dog walker as it is his job, I guess that makes me an amatuer dogwalker but I'm happy with that

Hope that clears it up a little......
 
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Devil's Advocate follows ...

I think a few people may dispute that.

NOT the award winning professionals who choose to use me tpo print their photo's

I'll do it myself. Why would I trust my valued photos to "professionals" like you who have no qualifications?

Bully for you but a lot of the public do not have the knowledge to seamlessly repair old, torn or faded photos

No it won't. If there is a demand for this someone will be there to service that demand.

Via post, the demand is not high enough for a bricks and mortar

I cannot even remember the last time I lost anything in the post. We have one of the best postal systems in the world.

again bully for you, I lose 2-3 a month and have to chase parcels regularly, and thats just personally not for business


.

quicker than multi quoting the red is not because I'm angry!
 
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Nuno

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Oct 10, 2011
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Not sure about some of Photovision's points but the one about "professional photographers" sometimes being complete charlatans is valid. There are lots of "professional Photographers" where I am and most of them take impenetrably boring black and white shots, some of which are paid for on the Government teat; Arts Council, teaching etc. None could crack it as a pro.

(By the way Photovision, a lot of real pros now shoot digitally and print themselves. A decent Epson A3 printer with Marutt inks and photoshop to help along any talent and learning is all it takes. Which my 'Art Pro's' don't know...)

For what it's worth, neither of the above sorts take passport pix.
 
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(By the way Photovision, a lot of real pros now shoot digitally and print themselves. A decent Epson A3 printer with Marutt inks and photoshop to help along any talent and learning is all it takes. Which my 'Art Pro's' don't know...)

True enough and I'm not disputing that!

But LOTS don't and without a place to get them done, then what will they do?

Go straight to supermarkets! will they offer the services of your local lab?

I don't care about the passports, I care about the independants being put under threat of losing their businesses
 
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Banned- Are they under threat because the Government are bringing in legislation to take their business away?

If not, you are just being inflammatory in your comments let alone childish, I had a little respect for you as you had genuine questions.

Now you're just looking to argue for the sake of it and the respect has gone.

It's perfectly valid, another business loosing out to the digital age.

And photoshops CAN still produce old fashioned passport pictures - nothing is being taken away just an alternative being given (but let's not go there again!). Games will become predominantly online only, far worse scenario for them surely?
 
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I lose 2-3 a month and have to chase parcels regularly, and thats just personally not for business
I must say I find that extremely hard to believe. My wife and I only get about half a dozen parcels a month. That would mean that we were losing half of them. Sorry, I think you are being economic with the truth but then we are dragging this off topic.

.
 
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L

last one standing

Well so much toss being spoken as so many of the so called 'contributors' here do not, can not, or do not want to understand. It will become a monopoly after which it is too late.
Stop provaricating about definitions who is and who is not a pro.

This is about choice and freedom as well as saving a type/style of traders who employ many thousands of people.
 
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There is nothing like a threat to get the brain ticking over as to how to respond. One of my favourite business sayings is "there is no such thing as threats - only opportunities".
Business has to respond and reinvent itself - it's the business cycle and this is your chance.
Good luck
 
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I must say I find that extremely hard to believe. My wife and I only get about half a dozen parcels a month. That would mean that we were losing half of them. Sorry, I think you are being economic with the truth but then we are dragging this off topic.

.

nope not being economic with the truth

I collect toys from all around the world and I spend what most people earn in a month on them probably alongside trading which is a major way for me to find what I'm looking for

I actually have a deal with the PO where I don't have to queue anymore due to the amount of parcels I send and recieve but still I lose about 3% of packages, and thats too many

I appreciate you only get 6 a month, but once one goes missing or gets damaged you'll understand the frustration
 
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