Potential Threat - Passport Photography

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Photovision

Bloody hell it does amaze me that some of the responses are from business OWNERS!!

it's not a loss of a few quid some places would lose £500 A DAY if this move happened.

the POST OFFICE IS NEVER GOING TO GO UNDER!! Royal mail might but someone else will step in and take over and you'll still be able to send out your bloody letters although why you arent using email in this wonderful digital age instead of something thats had its day.....

See the comparison I made there?

People stop writing letters and the PO struggles and closes
People Stop using Film and Photolabs go under.....

Striking similarities but no-one is telling them to deal with it and close now as their time is over and everyone has moved on.......

but why is the government pushing for the PO to make money? so THEY can make money when they sell it off to a new owner and then watch the price of postage go up to courier style rates.

as I've repeated before but people don't seem to see, it's not about the PO offering this extra service, let them by all means, but DONT take it away from the Independants.

I'm beginning to think that people are on this forum because they have no idea on how a FREE market or indeed business works and want someone else to tell them how to run their business.

Most of the posts start with "How do I" so I might well be right.....
 
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Mark Amies

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BOO HOO!

We are all having prices increased by Royal Mail and VAT slapped on top. Things change in business you can have your cake and eat it.

If you put all your eggs in one basket then thats your bad choice!

Stop moaning and get on with it.

Not exactley a very mature or balanced response there. "Stop moaning and get on with it" ? - hmm, sounds like the sort of comment you used to get from the Tories back in the bad days.

The concept of helping out the Royal Mail is ridiculous. It is a failed institution that is badly managed, losing vast sums of public money, and did not itself move with the times, and it has been doing this for decades. I recently saw a Panorama programme that was indicating that a great deal of the Royal Mail's revenue is coming in from junk post. Something that the majority of us do not want to recieve. Now is that a good business approach?. I , as a taxpayer have no choice in my funding of the Royal Mail/Post Office - in fact not once, but twice. First by general taxation and secondly as a customer.

When my wife recently had some post that had been ripped open and a gift , and a card stolen from it , whilst in the postage system ( that was sent by Royal Mail's Recorded delivery service, that she paid extra for.), she eventually got a letter saying it had been 'referred to' , and a book of first class stamps. She has heard nothing since, and that was months ago. The value of the items was considerably more than a book of stamps. Great service eh?l. If a private concern did that you could do something about it, but with the Royal Mail, you get nowhere.

You would not have that happen in other services, but we all accept it, because it is our beloved Royal Mail. If you took away the Royal connection and it's history , we would not be so easy on it. But have no fear, because when our Government eventually have thier way and privatise it, at no doubt well below it's real value, it will taken over by a series of profiterring concerns, that just like our rail companies, will continue to get state funded subsidies. It will change hands every five years , until it's purpose will be seen as redundant, and end up as a memory - no doubt rose tinted , with visions of cheery post men wearing proper uniforms in shiny red vans, "Postman Pat, Postman Pat ...............". Not as a memory of a concern that did a pretty shoddy job and cost the tax payer vast amounts of money - anyone recall the failed rebranding of the Royal Mail with the swirly logo?. It was clearly bad, as I cannot recall what they renamed it.

And so this is the institution we are happy to give a monopoly on passport photos to? You get a bad service from a shop, you have a choice. Choice, variety and service is what you get in a free market. Do retailers who do your passport photos get supported by the public?, no, because if they fail to do their job properly and give a bad service, they go to the wall. No one is going to have forgiving rose tinted memories of them. The shop closes and if it ever reopens as a shop it becomes another betting shop or a fast food outlet.

If standing up for and highlighting to people something that is a potential threat is 'moaning', then it says alot for this country's approach to democracy. Forums are there for individuals to discuss things in a fair and adult way. Which is why I brought it up on here.;)

Now, I am sure I will get some bricks chucked back at me, that is to be expected. But I hope that some of you might, just might, see the points being raised here by myself and others who are concerned about this situation. Furthermore, that you might support the campaign, 'Save the Photographers'. We care about the industry we are in, wether it be as a supplier or a retailer.

There you go ,and I wasn't being rude or off hand either.

Thank you.
 
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aussiecameras

With all due respect banned, you have no idea about business in the photographic world now.

It looks to me that you have had many businesses including a photo real estate business, a milk run and one I saw on another thread, a card selling shop.

You talk about a few quid, I think that might have been more that you ever turned over as far as i can see, you have no idea about the great business that the average photoshop turns over in passports.

Some of us have been commited to the photo retail business for many years.



You say you got out of the photo business when the real estate guys went digital in the early 1990's, well, let me tell you that you missed the best years!

Grow up and support independent busineses,
 
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With all due respect banned, you have no idea about business in the photographic world now.

It looks to me that you have had many businesses including a photo real estate business, a milk run and one I saw on another thread, a card selling shop.

You talk about a few quid, I think that might have been more that you ever turned over as far as i can see, you have no idea about the great business that the average photoshop turns over in passports.

Some of us have been commited to the photo retail business for many years.



You say you got out of the photo business when the real estate guys went digital in the early 1990's, well, let me tell you that you missed the best years!

Grow up and support independent busineses,

Na, I had the best years I'm sure off that. And when digital came in and we lost Estate Agents business I didn't moan and bleat on about how unfair it was. I made an educated decision and moved on. I will admit I have no real knowledge of a present day photolab, so please do enlighten me as to why they are so fantastic.

Has to be said that over the past 25 years I've had a number of businesses, and no I don't hang on to one out of vanity, instead I like to move onwards and upwards (well sideways is probably a farer description as I have no desire to empire build) and change with the times. Perhaps I just get bored easily!

Still an awful lot of contradictions with you photo guys though - one minute loosing the passports will be a great hardship and lose you 40% of your business, the next you are doing fantastic business and growing. Which is it as it can't be both?

I do fully support independent business, after all I am one! I just don't support a few businesses that want to halt progress and a technology that will be a massive convenience to the many millions of people who renew their passports every year. Supporting that is a bit like turkeys voting for Christmas. Unless of course you can explain how a photolab contributes to society more than any other business, and is therefore worthy of special dispensation.

Aussieprints, you are based in Tasmania yes? Why are these machines and the UK an issue to you?
 
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Nuno

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Looking at the Save the Photographers website I see that:

  • 350 shops are at risk
  • £50million of revenue will be lost
Which is about £142800 of revenue for each shop.


This seems a huge amount, but also unlikely: at say £5 a pop, 312 working days a year (6 day week), that's over 90 customers every single day, or a customer every 6 minutes all day, every day, (9 hour day).


Is this realistic?
(And please don't shout back Mr £500 A DAY!!!)


I'd say:



  • It's not realistic and the figures are much lower
  • With low margins it can't be a great contributor to a shop's profit
  • If things are so booming in the Photo add-ons trade why are they so fussed about this?
  • If the above figures are right, and if it is a tidy earner, why didn't a trade organization, or group, (Kodak, Snappy) do something about it? (Kodak were still going in 2008/9 when this was legislated and thus negotiated).
  • Why don't you see if you can offer a better service instead of whinging about being put out of business?
The whole malarkey about monopolies and public sector strikers, 30 person queues is Herring Rouge.
 
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Photovision

you assume people only charge £5 I know of people who charge between £15-20 but I agree those figures do look skewed, however you're assuming just the charge for the actual print, not the equipment or the materials needed which obviously changes things

We ARE doing ok, but there are lots out there that aren't

AGAIN for the hard of reading/understanding.

It's not about the PO getting the work if they deserve it, it's about the freedom of the customer to choose when the government are fattening up the PO getting ready to sell it off

would it be a far stretch of the imagination to suggest that once ALL ID Photo's are done in the PO that they want to bring in more revenue to make it worth selling..... then bring back the proposed ID cards and everyone trundles off to get an ID Photo taken mandatorily at £10 a pop (or whatever they charge under their monopoly which could be as much as a passport due to "administration" fees )

with over 62 million people that would be huge boost to the government coffers (between 620 million and 6.2 billion if they went for the proposed £100 fee)

good business or bad the government should NOT force a monopoly into 1 business because they want to sell it.

Clearly banging my head against the wall here with people who are not reading or understanding what the argument is about

and for the record I don't take passport photos but I CAN see this is a bad idea and a bad precedent for business in general

no-one likes going to the post office, can you imagine it on a saturday morning full of screaming kids not wanting their photo's taken and stressed mothers and you have NO choice but to wait or come back another day.
 
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paulears

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The feature of the post office service is that people use it because they cannot do the passport prep themselves and need help. I would not dream of using the post office for this service as my large post office is full of unpleasant smelly people and is a horrible place. As it happens, I simply take my own photo, print it out and fill in official forms myself. I don't use photo shops at all, so people like me won't use them less, because I don't use them anyway. There are more post offices than snappy snaps type shops, so it is really a strange discussion. Post offices also now sell insurance, yet local insurance agencies aren't getting cross - it's just competition. You don't HAVE to use their machine in the post office - but I really cannot see the customers complaining for them making it a one stop shop. The photo me style booths are simple, but I bet much of the post office use is where people just don't even know how to get a picture taken.

The other thing of course is that many people using the service do not wish to make two visits. Go to the post office, use their machine, then go home and find somebody to sign it, then go back.
 
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Nuno

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OK Photoboys, a few questions then:

Where does it say that the PO gets a monopoly, (an enforceable, legal monopoly.)? I doubt whether this would be legal under EU competition law, and if it is an effective monoploy by a big player that leaves room for small players, like yourselves, with an edge, (price, service etc) to enter the game.

Why is it claimed that private sector photographers are at risk? Only some are, the sort that have minilabs, sell frames and the suchlike. I have worked for many years with the private photography sector and have never, ever met one of these photographers. So a few photographers who primarily depend on a machine based photographic income are under the cosh because they didn't shape up a few years ago. Evolution, brother, evolution. (And screwing people £20 for a passport photo is a bloody liberty. Before the machines it was a bit of grey cloth and one sheet of Polaroid to give 4 images. Even PO prices aren't that 'leading edge'.)

I do like your flight of fancy into the realm of compulsory ID cards been reintroduced to make the PO saleable. We will all face a lifetime of servitude for Deutschepost to take over?

And, as a personal thing, I would never believe anything Jeremy Corbyn had a hand in, or if it came to it Austin Mitchell? What is the real agenda if these two socialists sign a pro business competition early day motion?
 
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aussiecameras

The truth of the matter is that there is an agenda for the post offices to have the monopoly on this work by dint of an all in one machine that takes the photo and incorporates all other information that might be needed now and in the future.
And these machines would be exclusive to Post Offices, and only larger ones at that.

As far as changing with the times and margin concerns, we have indeed changed with the times. One of the key growth areas has been passport photos and other ID photos. This service orientated business might cost the average store the cost of a sheet of photographic paper to produce but maybe a retail price of ten pounds.
It is a service where the result has to be fairly concise so there is some skill involved but the margin is considerable.

So exactly the sort of service that a business should be looking for I would have thought.

Now, I didn't produce the figures that have been quoted but there are stores who have up to 40% of their income with this sort of work.And photographic studios rather than photo shops that specialise in this sort of work.

But if I am an average store I can tell you that the gross profit from passports pays about half the rent on the whole store. We have nothing else that does that, especially from a space of a few square feet and an investment of a decent camera and a couple of lights!

So yes, the PO incursion is an enormous threat to the viability of independent photostores and we are looking for support of business people rather than negative waffle. And again I would have thought that there would have been support for small operators against the might of goverment on a forum like this.
 
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Mark Amies

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It seems that the majority of people responding on this thread who are not involved in the photo buisness have decided to take a very negative stance, and it is very sad that there seems little support or understanding. In fact there seems litle want to understand.

As I have said before this campaign ( Save the photographers) was put together by the Photo Marketing Association , which is a organisation with representation in a number of countries, and PhotoMe. Both are big players who have clear concerns. This wasn't just a few small shop keepers who were 'moaning'.

Myself, Photovision and Aussiecameras have tried repeatedly to get the message across here, but with very little positive response. We have attempted to be well mannered in what we have said.

There is something not right here, if you cannot see this , then there seems little we can do. However this is not something that is going away ,and no doubt you will hear more about it elsewhere.

<<Last sentence removed by mod>>
 
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Mark Amies

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I was hoping to re-edit my last comment, but it seems there is a limited number of edits you can do. <<Performed on your behalf by a mod :)>>

Anyway, as they say on The Apprentice , " Thank you for the opportunity".

Have a nice Sunday, and if you need a passport photo doing, do give your local photo retailer a try. He or she may be happy to discuss the issue, and if they have the petition there, perhaps you might want to sign it.
 
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I was hoping to re-edit my last comment, but it seems there is a limited number of edits you can do.

I will take back the last paragraph in my last post as it may be seen as off hand. What I said was born out of frustration.

Anyway, as they say on The Apprentice , " Thank you for the opportunity".

Have a nice Sunday, and if you need a passport photo doing, do give your local photo retailer a try. He or she may be happy to discuss the issue, and if they have the petition there, perhaps you might want to sign it.

Mark afraid it seems the majority do not have much sympathy for your cause.

Hopefully not a reflection of the general public,but sadly I suspect it is.

Maybe the anticks of the newspaper photographers has given the public a jaundiced view.?

Earl
 
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Mark, I think the issue is that one small retail sector, for their own personal gain, want to put the kibosh on a service that will benefit many millions of people every year. That can't be right and could be argued would give them an unfair advantage.

The world progresses, horses gave way to canals which gave way to trains and roads. Thank the lord we are not all still chugging about on the waterways of Britain just so the canal industry was saved, or getting about on horseback to save the many thousand of farriers that used to ply their trade in the uk.

Perhaps the photolabs/booths/photographers should be grateful they had the government provided all this work for them for so long and without charge. I know for a fact there isn't anything in my current businesses that are legally required and enforced by law - maybe something I should look at. Thinking about it, with all the security issues in the world, it may be about time passport photo's are wholly taken away from the private sector anyway.

Aussiecameras - still wondering what your interest in the uk passport photo market might be? Is Tasmania contemplating something similar?
 
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aussiecameras

That is not the issue, the issue here is that you and and a number of others do not support small business, We have explained how important it is to our businesses. If you seriously think that this sort of service would be better done by government, well, sorry, we are all stuffed, it is not done better by government !

Why would you be on a business forum if you don't support business! FM!
 
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You are kidding ?

It would be a damn bit quicker than the M25.:|

Our waterways are extremely underused as a means of transport.

Earl

Actually the canal that passes through our town is very well used by holiday makers on their boats. A coal merchant stills travels the length of it making deliveries, a bookshop on a barge is a regular feature not to mention hotel barges and numerous others "boat people" selling their wares on the towpath.

OK only the coal merchant probably qualifies as using the canal for transport, but I would imagine it's a lifestyle choice rather the genuine delivery method. After all 4mph isn't exactly a cost/time effective way of getting about.

So getting back(ish) on topic, the canal is still very well used but has moved on and adapted - much like photolabs need to do if they should lose part of their business.
 
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Why would you be on a business forum if you don't support business! FM!

Well I'm here because it's a UK Business forum and I'm in business in the UK.

Is there not a Tasmania Business Forum you could join? I really can't see the relevance of the currently troubled UK retail market to someone in Tasmania? I only ask because it wouldn't even enter my thoughts to contribute on a Tasmanian forum, is the Tasmanian retail sector going through similar problems, do you supply a lot of UK passport photo's, are you having these machines installed in post offices over there? (sorry, that comes across a bit blunt, genuine question though)?

What you may not be aware off is that the very vast majority of Post Offices are run by independent businesses anyway, so supporting them is actually supporting independent retailers.

Anyhow, I'm really not as grumpy or miserable I may be coming across, so as one independent retailer to another I welcome you, virtually, to the UK :)
 
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aussiecameras

Thank you for your welcome! It is appreciated.

We, as you did, had a great business in real estate photography, remember even going to houses, doing the measurements and then drawing the plan that went on the back of the sheets that the real estate guys handed out. From memory we used to stick the 6x4's onto a A4 sheet that we had printed using probably an early version of pagemaker! And we moved on from there.
In the end they did all the layout work but we sold them cameras and still do. Also still do a lot of enlargements and wide format printing.

But that was just a small part of all our businesses in the 80's and 90"s wasn't it? And the peak of film processing and printing I reckon was about 2001. And that's not my opinion but I'm sure would be backed up by any decent research!

Why am I on your forum. well I'm Welsh born, have a British passport, but live in Tasmania which is a fair way away. I have both an interest in British Business and am concerned about the move to PO as this is a world wide issue. I am also worried that the word 'British Business' might become an oxymoron if this sort of process continues as well as the simple issue of government taking over stuff that was done by private enterprise seems to be pretty inefficient and not customer friendly .

And lastly, looking through the negativity on the thread and though some other posts on this forum, like, 'Who is going to close in 2012" just worry about some of your attitudes! It takes a while to find a positive post !

A business forum should be positive to small business. And I think negative comments just for the sake of it are worse than a waste of time.

But some of you guys look like experts at the down side, get real and get a life!
Go and watch what Wales did in the last 20 minutes yesterday and go and do that!


Regards ... Tim
 
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Photovision

People really are missing the point of this whole thread. it's NOT about lost revenue

I won't be losing ANY as I'm not I repeat for the hard of reading NOT involved in passports.

It's about the government trying to fatten up the PO for resale value.

It's wrong on every level.

As for the conspiracy about the ID cards it was just that, tongue firmly in cheek, but then everyone laughed at 1984 and said we would never live in such a heavily monitored society...... just food for thought.....

Just out of interest Banned what is your current business? I'm intrigued by what you actually do for a living.

Much like many of the other have said there's a lot of negativity on this forum and it very much does appear to be full of posts asking how to set up stuff for their business, where are the innovators? where are the people who are doing it for themselves? do ANY of them actually have a chance if they can't get the basics sorted?

I honestly don't know and as I have said before I LIKE recessions, they sort the wheat from the chaff and I'd be interested in a years time to see how many people here have gone under due to not having a clue but being full of opinions

Independants are asking for help/support like 99% of the posts here.

Did it really need the savaging it got for asking?

Being told to sort it out out go under?
 
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People really are missing the point of this whole thread. it's NOT about lost revenue


Independants are asking for help/support like 99% of the posts here.

I think that's the problem, a small sector of retail expecting support to abort a government initiative that would make live easier for millions of people every year.

And as I said before, very many Post Offices are run by independent businesses (many many more than there are photo labs) who's survival is directly linked to said Post Offices. So it seems very strange to accuse people of not supporting independent businesses, that's exactly what we are doing.

What do I do, one retail shop, one dog walking business, on holiday let. Hope that helps. Perhaps we should all list our current and past businesses in our profiles :)
 
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Photovision

ok I give up.

All I ask is you all remember this thread when queueing up in the Post Office in a few years for your passport, full of screaming kids and people who stil haven't grasped that you should wrap your parcel before taking it to get posted, old dears wanting to buy one stamp but frightened of the self service machines, and think to yourself

"I wish I had a choice rather than standing here"

or will you really be thinking " wow progress is great" ?
 
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Mark Amies

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Your persistance is admirable Sir.

Like you say , all three of us have tried hard to get this across, and the proof will be there to see.

If it goes swimmingly then we were a bunch of muppets. Clearly.

One thing is for sure , so many seem to have so much faith in the Post Office (obviuosly not the same one I use) , and the UK Government to make this happen and be a success.
 
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Nuno

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Pram loses toys shock!

Three posters , all new, come on asking for help, using dodgy figures, overblown claims and not answering simple questions.

When not supported it's because everyone here has a negative attitude, don't understand and we will find out to our cost!

So people here, some with experience in the area think, hell, once in 10 years I can put up with the post office rather than deal with people like that.

And if finding fault with a badly put argument is negative, and if a lot of this forum is negative despite being an excellent resource and way of finding help, well I'll live with that skippy.
 
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Photo lab chaps.

OK we hear how terrible it will be at the post office. What are you guys offering as an alternative that will be quicker (say less than thirty minutes from start to end result) and how will your prices compare.

Present a compelling case and I'm open minded enough to be persuaded and sign your petition. Not interested in the politics of it all and what may or may not happen, as like 99% of the population I'm interested in convenience and price when it comes to things like passports and driving licences.
 
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Photovision

What are you guys offering as an alternative.

FINALLY!!

thats the point, we WON'T be able to offer an alternative

That has been the whole point of the problem, it's being forced onto the post office.

There will NOT be a choice of going to Labs if you wanted to.


That and only that is why I think it's a bad idea
 
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FINALLY!!

thats the point, we WON'T be able to offer an alternative

That has been the whole point of the problem, it's being forced onto the post office.

There will NOT be a choice of going to Labs if you wanted to.


That and only that is why I think it's a bad idea

Sorry you misunderstood my post. I asked what "are" you offering so I know if your services are worth protecting.

Probably my fault for adding a future tense "will" in there as well :redface:

Basically what are you able to do now that is better/cheaper/more convenient than what will be offered by these machines? Hope that makes more sense!
 
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Mark Amies

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Just recieved this information from the Photo Marketing Association -

"At around 10pm this evening the Conservative MP for Mole Valley, Sir Paul Beresford, will introduce a Commons Adjournment Debate as part of the strategy to bring the printed photo ID issue to the heart of Government.

Watch it live on BBC Parliament – Channel 81 on Freeview or alternatively through the BBC Parliament website"

(That being todays date 27/02/12)
 
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Photovision

Sorry you misstook my post. I asked what "are" you offering so I know if your services are worth protecting.

Probably my fault for adding a future tense "will" in there as well :redface:

Basically what are you able to do now that is better/cheaper/more convenient than what will be offered by these machines? Hope that makes more sense!

None...... because I'm not involved in passport picture taking but those who do?

1. Friendly Service
2. Quick Turnaround (5 minutes, will the PO do it that fast)
3. No trying to find a booth that isn't broken down/vandalised/out of order.
(trust me I used to work in a place with one of the booths and it got taken out because it was broken down more than it was working)
4. No worrying about height adjustment
5. Customs sizes for International Visas
6. Baby and Toddler Passport images, can you image trying to do that in a booth or over the counter in the PO

There you go just a few reasons from someone who doesn't take them but thinks they're worth saving!
 
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Just recieved this information from the Photo Marketing Association -

"At around 10pm this evening the Conservative MP for Mole Valley, Sir Paul Beresford, will introduce a Commons Adjournment Debate as part of the strategy to bring the printed photo ID issue to the heart of Government.

Watch it live on BBC Parliament – Channel 81 on Freeview or alternatively through the BBC Parliament website"

(That being todays date 27/02/12)

Not sure what that has to do with this thread. ID's have been mooted and chucked in and out of the political pot for decades.
 
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