Potential Threat - Passport Photography

[Banned]

Just out of interest , below is a link to the Hansard report of the Parliamentary discussion on February 27th -

http://www.publications.parliament....120227/debtext/120227-0004.htm#12022736000002

And what leaps out is "That is in direct commercial competition with the extensive UK printed photo ID market."

Then it chunters on about a possibility of a monopoly only on the evidence that the post office are buying the machines, there is no exclusive deal with Congent so perhaps the photolab boys should be placing there orders for these machines now as well.

But then again with ""Even with the new technology, the market stands at 50:50. We have no intention of stopping people from choosing to use the traditional-I prefer to say old-fashioned-method." looks like there is nothing to worry about all.

Must be a relief for the photolab chaps to know they can compete head on using the same technology as the post offices, but they can also continue as they do at the moment.

 

[aussiecameras]

Thank you Mark for the info.

 

[Mark Amies]

With regard to the Cogent machinery , I would imagine it will be pretty expensive, and I don't know if it will be made available to anyone other than the Post Office.

Photo retailers cannot be expected to fork out enormous sums of money on this, not when they have only recently done so by repalcing anaologue processing equiment in the transition to digital.

A digital minilab can cost upwards from £15,000 by the way.

 

[dynamic08]

Are still badgering on about this! Move on business changes and so should you.

 

[bdw]

Mark has a legitimate (discussion) point. If someone thinks it is important enough to discuss in parliament then it is surely a valid topic in here.

Mark, once again I am not being facetious but I really cannot see the difference between this proposed system and the fact that many post offices had and still have photo booths for passport and ID photographs in there now. Can you explain?

.

 

[Mark Amies]

The photobooths produce a photo onto paper, as do those people doingthe service in photo shops and pharmacists.

The Cogent system that is going into Post Offices is a digital solution totally, no paper.

 

[Banned]

Mark has a legitimate (discussion) point. If someone thinks it is important enough to discuss in parliament then it is surely a valid topic in here.

Mark, once again I am not being facetious but I really cannot see the difference between this proposed system and the fact that many post offices had and still have photo booths for passport and ID photographs in there now. Can you explain?

.

It appears it's a cost issue for the equipment they need to provide the same service. But isn't that just life?

I don't remember the many tens of thousands of shops that sell cigarettes complaining that they HAVE to install new displays that hide the merchandise, they either paid up or stopped that side of the businesses. At least the photolabs have the option to continue as they are at the moment.

There are very many pieces of equipment I would like to add to my business, but it's the cost that prevents me. Can't see this is any different.

 

[Mark Amies]

Are still badgering on about this! Move on business changes and so should you.

I am not 'badgering on'. I wonder if you may have just picked up on this without reading any of it. I don't know what line of buisness you are in , but I do hope you never have to face a similar situation.

 

[dynamic08]

It annoys me that taxis are allowed to use bus lanes buy heyho!

In business things move on and sometimes the barrier is often moved higher!

Take Royal mail for example they have just increased prices and wacked VAT on top of the service to.

I have not created a thread about it though. If I dont like it then I either shutup or payup.

From what you have said it sounds like a good idea that the post office is going to be offering this. I have in the past had to find somewhere to take my photos to then get to the post office and be told they are no good!

If you are so concerned maybe your next business should be a post office?

 

[Mark Amies]

Thanks , I will bear that in mind.

 

[Nuno]

From a quick reading of the question and answer in Hansard, as linked, it would seem that the Governments position is one of keeping down cost for the public given the rising cost of compulsory photometric identification.

As the Government is meant to represent all, not just one group, this would seem sensible: awarding a cost limiting contract whilst allowing competition.

However I can see why business groups with self interest to pursue should try and knacker this: it's what they do. As Adam Smith said:

(The interest)"...in any particular branch of trade or manufactures, is always in some respects different from, and even opposite to, that of the public...The proposal of any new law or regulation of commerce which comes from this order, ought always to be listened to with great precaution, and ought never be adopted till after having been long and carefully examined, not only with the most scrupulous, but with the most suspicious attention"

 

[Atilla]

A digital minilab can cost upwards from £15,000 by the way.

So can a van full of tools and kit. What makes your chosen trade so different they need molly coddling?

For Gods sake stop moaning.

 

[bdw]

Can't we disagree without getting personal? Too much of that in here IMO.

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[Mark Amies]

That is why I have decided to pass on this now.

 

[bdw]

Mark, as I said earlier, there is no shortage of (largely anonymous) people in here whose mission it is to smart mouth people they don't even know rather than engaging in a proper discussion. Don't let them put you off. It can be a very useful forum.

I personally am still missing your point but I won't insult you. Let's still be friends.

.

 

[Mark Amies]

BDW, I have persisted with this , and the campaign was set in place by the Photo Marketing association and Photo Me, so if the message on their website -

http://www.savethephotographers.co.uk/

Is not getting the mesage across, then I am sorry. I don't work for the PMA or indeed PhotoMe. I am a sales manager at a company that supplies a great many customers with the print packs and equipment used by high street guys. I was concerned , and I wanted to get the message out in the Business community , and used this forum , as I had been following it's tweets for some time.

I have got a pretty thick skin , but to be honest with you it is not really happening, and you can only bang a drum for so long.

So whilst I would dearly love to hang in here on this, I have to say it is probably a waste of time now.

 

[bdw]

If you are only interested in this single issue then this is not the place for you. The forums is of more benefit to people who take and give on a regular basis.

.

 

[Mark Amies]

Yes, I do realise how discussion forums work bdw, as I do contribute to a great many within my industry, For record I have contributed on another thread on this forum since coming on.

I had every intention of carrying on doing so, especially where it concerns the line of work I am in.

 

[Photovision]

bdw I see the poit you are making about contributing to other areas, but after the attitudes that have shown themselves here I'm not sure I WANT to help anyone else

After all the message we seemed to get was deal with it or shut.

fairly sure that if I went into other threads and posted that to every question or problem that arose I'd be lambasted and hoiked off the board quicker than you'd think.

as I again know how they work

I admin 1 (for a Global Company)
I Supermoderate 3 with user bases much higher than this one
and I partake in about 15 others

so yeah I know how they work and I know how to remove problematic posters

I've not seen much here that makes me want to put the effort in

 

[windlesham]

bdw I see the poit you are making about contributing to other areas, but after the attitudes that have shown themselves here I'm not sure I WANT to help anyone else

After all the message we seemed to get was deal with it or shut.

fairly sure that if I went into other threads and posted that to every question or problem that arose I'd be lambasted and hoiked off the board quicker than you'd think.

as I again know how they work

I admin 1 (for a Global Company)
I Supermoderate 3 with user bases much higher than this one
and I partake in about 15 others

so yeah I know how they work and I know how to remove problematic posters

I've not seen much here that makes me want to put the effort in

• You've come onto a forum with an agenda.
• The majority of forum members seem to disagree with what you're saying

Perhaps your case is not coming across well enough, perhaps your just in the wrong and are so blinkered you fail to see it.

What is clear is you seem to want pity and throw your toys out of the pram because people are failing to agree with you.

 

[bdw]

bdw I see the poit you are making about contributing to other areas, but after the attitudes that have shown themselves here I'm not sure I WANT to help anyone else After all the message we seemed to get was deal with it or shut.

I think the message you were getting is that people were not entirely sure what you were complaining about. The point was made several times that we saw this as collateral damage caused by progress. I am afraid none of you said anything to change my mind on this despite me trying to find out what the point was.

But yes, the consensus in here seems to be "deal with it or shut". This is a business forum. Many POs are small businesses too. Do you think that it is right that we should dismiss their interests in favour of yours?

.

 

[Mark Amies]

I really did want to leave this , but some of the responses on here really beggar a response.

Wether anyone on this thread wants to listen , cares or otherwise, there is a very great chance that if this threat to retailers does happen, that it could mean a great many going out of business. Not because they are bad buisness people, but because of a Government decision making process. A decision making process that has taken place with very little consultation with photo reatilers, pharmacists and photo booth manufacturers, or indeed the general public ( who will be paying for the service and paying for the equipment going into the post offices through taxation). If those deciosns are either delayed or not implemented it wil be in part dues to the efforts of those trying to get the message out there. We are not waving burning torches, or marching on Whitehall.

Now to see a very large number of retailers go out of business is very bad news. This section of the UKBF is to do with retail. I had put up the original post for the sole reason of perhaps letting anyone who was taking passport photos aware, or indeed anyone who was thinking of moving into that area. Given the number of viewings this post has had I would hope that there are some people who have read this and were happy to do so, and may in fact help them. The fact that they may have decided not to post was up to them, they may have been wary of doing so.

I did not post up here to gain. If I had I would have mentioned products, and prices, etc.

Having been told I should be contributing on here in other areas , I have done so, you can check.

At that point I wil leave it there. I have no want to create animosity. I have been on here for selfless reasons ( whatever you may think), I have attempted to be as civil as I can. I would imagine that it is becoming rather boring for some of you, and I must admit I have become rather tired of it too. The expression 'flogging a dead horse comes to mind'.

 

[bdw]

Actually this thread reminds me of one in which I participated elsewhere. It was after the pub smoking ban. Many publicans were complaining about the ban because it was affecting their business. It most certainly was and that was a shame but it had to be done.

.

 

[bdw]

The expression 'flogging a dead horse comes to mind'.

Yes, a very accurate analogy.

Mark, there were questions posed to you in this thread that I think you failed to address. For example, why have you not been complaining that many post offices had photo booths? Perhaps if you had campaigned to get these removed in the past this may not have happened?


.

 

[Mark Amies]

Bdw - I think I tried my best to answer your questions. I had referred to the campaign website, and I did say that if the message wasn't getting through, that is was something the PMA needed to address. I hope for their sake they do.

I will also say again , that I do not work for the PMA, or PhotoMe, and I am not behind their campaign. I am in photographic supplies, and I was bringing it to people's attention.

You will hear more about this I am very sure, so I will let that process take place.

If anyone wanted to get more information on the campaign , or indeed contact the PMA ( Photo Marketing Association) , then the details are on the website -

http://www.savethephotographers.co.uk/

 

[bdw]

The campaign website does not do a good job of answering my questions.

.

 

[Mark Amies]

Like I said, I have informed the PMA of this.

It's up to them now.

 

[Photovision]

ad I dont know why I bothered either other than I think the process is wrong

I certainly have no agenda for one very good reason

I stand to lose nothing if the decision goes through

I dont supply passport equipment, I don't do passport photo's

All I want is for the government to really think before they take valuable income away from independants

I want to CHOOSE where I get my passport renewed not be told where to go.

until the PMA actually clear this mess up I can't see this getting any support

I love all the support for the poor old PO though, granted some of them are run by independants but surely they should shut too if they aren't meeting peoples needs or a viable money making option?

Why all the love and hugs for a quite frankly poorly run, poorly organised loss making business?

sorry for the slow reply been a busy day not doing passport photos.......

 

[Banned]

Why all the love and hugs for a quite frankly poorly run, poorly organised loss making business?

Because they provide a valuable service to the community - car tax, passports, postage, currency, banking etc etc. Photolabs do not.

 

[aussiecameras]

This thread reminds me of the great Monty Python sketch about paying to have an argument with people who just want to argue regardless of the point of view.
Thank you for your input Mark, but maybe you should have come out on the side of the Post Offices and then the others would have taken the opposite view!
It would be very funny if it wasn't so serious.

 

[bdw]

This thread reminds me of the great Monty Python sketch about ...

I don't think it is at all like that. What happened was that this was raised as an issue but a few of us did not see it as such. Automatic support for any issue raised in here is not guaranteed. That's what happened here.

You got the opinion of the rest of us, many of whom did not see it your way. If I were you I would take this on board. There is a message there.

.

 

[Photovision]

Because they provide a valuable service to the community - car tax, passports, postage, currency, banking etc etc. Photolabs do not.

Car Tax- Renewable online
Passports- Forms available online to fill out and return to passport office yourself
Postage, Available online simpler, easier AND cheaper
Currency- Available from banks, travel agents, online
Banking..... err available from banks and online

So remind me again what the post office offer that others cannot?

EVERYTHING you have listed as being great about the PO is available online, so under your argument about the PP images surely you can see the logic in the PO closing as they are no longer viable in this modern age.

what do Photolabs do that others cannot?? Quite a bit actually, it's why I don't need to do passports to put food on the table and petrol in my car

Maybe you should step into one and see just what they can do these days as you gave up at the first sign of it not being easy money.........

 

[bdw]

EVERYTHING you have listed as being great about the PO is available online, so under your argument about the PP images surely you can see the logic in the PO closing as they are no longer viable in this modern age.

How about the fact that about half of the UK population does not use online services? do we just tell them all to go and learn how to use a computer - make it compulsory for all adults from 16 to 96?

.

 

[Atilla]

Seems to me that this little campaign has had the exact opposite effect to the one intended.

Well done.

 

[firstmarket]

Seems to me that this little campaign has had the exact opposite effect to the one intended.

Well done.

It's enlightened me. I'm now aware I have the ease and convenience of doing everything in one place during my next renewal.

 

[Photovision]

How about the fact that about half of the UK population does not use online services? do we just tell them all to go and learn how to use a computer - make it compulsory for all adults from 16 to 96?

.

Thats not actually a bad idea, but then the 42% who aren't computer literate surely need to be ignored as they aren't moving with the times?

 

[Nuno]

Thats not actually a bad idea, but then the 42% who aren't computer literate surely need to be ignored as they aren't moving with the times?

One of my businesses is a small online retail operation. Some of the older customers don't like using the net, even if they have it. I don't ignore them.

I had a small brochure/orderform specially printed which goes out with an SAE with every order. I have about 50 regular repeat clients with an average monthly spend of £52.

Once received the order just slots into the company workflow. I'd be mad to ignore them for 2 hours work a month.

But maybe what you said was a joke. Nearly.

(Has anyone ever got an OBE for services to the Post Office. As they say, it could be you.)

 

[bdw]

Thats not actually a bad idea, but then the 42% who aren't computer literate surely need to be ignored as they aren't moving with the times?

Oh yes, lets just ignore everyone who chooses not to use a computer. That ought to do it.

I was also going to say something about moving with the times in relation to this topic but then I thought better of it.

.

 

[Banned]

Car Tax- Renewable online
Passports- Forms available online to fill out and return to passport office yourself
Postage, Available online simpler, easier AND cheaper
Currency- Available from banks, travel agents, online
Banking..... err available from banks and online

So remind me again what the post office offer that others cannot?

EVERYTHING you have listed as being great about the PO is available online, so under your argument about the PP images surely you can see the logic in the PO closing as they are no longer viable in this modern age.

what do Photolabs do that others cannot?? Quite a bit actually, it's why I don't need to do passports to put food on the table and petrol in my car

Maybe you should step into one and see just what they can do these days as you gave up at the first sign of it not being easy money.........

Talk about grasping at straws! Not everyone is online or want to do everything online. The point was the PO provides a service, particularly in rural areas. Photolabs don't provide any essential services. There is a vast difference in getting your car taxed and having snotty johnny's picture on a mug

And the day I can pay cash into a bank/savings account will be a day to remember - and a great many businesses use the PO for their business banking -- far more in fact than there are photolabs, hence you don't really stand a chance at getting the business community to support you.

On a personal level (seeing as you brought it up!) I didn't (well we, it was a partnership) give up, but sold up - big difference and I'm still convinced it was the right thing to do

 

[Banned]

And the day I can pay cash into a bank/savings account will be a day to remember

Oh feck, obviously I meant pay in cash online :redface: