Potential Threat - Passport Photography

[Mark Amies]

The taking of passport photos has long been a valuable incomestream for retailers, in particular photo shops and pharmacists.

Unfortunatley the writing could very well be on the wall.

Take a look at this campaign website put together by teh Photo Marketing Association and PhotoMe , who clearly have a great deal to lose to , as a big chunk of their buisness is passport photo booths-

Ooops! Justs realised - I can only post a link , after I have made 15 posts.

Oh well. The information is their if you wish to look. put in ' save the photographers' into google.

 

[Mark Amies]

Did anyone have any views on this?

 

[The Ginger Ninja]

http://www.savethephotographers.co.uk/

 

[Mark Amies]

Thanks Ginge!!

 

[OldWelshGuy]

So what exactly is the problem here? Looks like they have made life easier for all concerned by placing the image point at the point of order?

I honestly don;t see an issue.

 

[The Ginger Ninja]

Dont most large Post Offices already have a photo booth in them anyway?

 

[windlesham]

I don't see the problem either. It makes good commercial sense for the PO to offer this service.

Welcome to the world of capitalism

 

[OldWelshGuy]

Welcome to the world of fair competition I say.

 

[Mark Amies]

Well, potentially it means that a market that was free to a great many retailers, such as photo retailers and pharmacists, could be taken away, to the Post Office as a virtual monopoly.

There are a great many other layers to it. So I do believe as a great many others do in this buisness that it is a problem.

To underline this, most of the Snappy Snaps and Kodak Express photo stores have got petitions in their stores for members of the public to sign.

 

[OldWelshGuy]

Well, potentially it means that a market that was free to a great many retailers, such as photo retailers and pharmacists, could be taken away, to the Post Office as a virtual monopoly.

There are a great many other layers to it. So I do believe as a great many others do in this buisness that it is a problem.

To underline this, most of the Snappy Snaps and Kodak Express photo stores have got petitions in their stores for members of the public to sign.

But they are complaining about someone opening up in competition to them for a slice of the market. what is the problem?

I see the post office providing a service that makes my life easier, it means I go in, grab the form, get my pal to OK the piccies, slap it over the counter and job done.

I am getting a better service (as I have to go to the post office anyhow to get a form).

 

[windlesham]

To underline this, most of the Snappy Snaps and Kodak Express photo stores have got petitions in their stores for members of the public to sign.

I signed the petition to save my local post office as I believed it offered services relevant to the community. I can't really see me doing the same for Snappy Snaps.

The Post Office does something in order to help it become commercial successful and their seems to be uproar, at least from the regulars at Snappy Snaps.

Businesses that fail to move with the times get left behind. When Snappy Snaps make an undertaking to stop muscling in on the business of picture framers I maybe tempted to sign.

 

[OldWelshGuy]

Why didn't snappy snaps use their heads, see this coming, and put outlets within post offices. OR why don't snappy snaps get the passport forms from the post offices and provide them at their shop?

 

[Mark Amies]

But there won't be competition - that is the point, it will end up as a monopoly.

Passport photos have always been produced onto photo paper. The Post Office system ( paid for by UK taxpayers) will be totally electronic/digital.

If the Post Offices would be able to deal with the demand that would be OK, but it is debatable that they would. It is unlikely that the systems would go into every Post Office, so the public would have to find specific ones. The public have choice and options now, they wouldn't in the future.

It is also worth bearing in mind here that the Post Office is very likely to be sold off at some point, so all this would end up , quite possibly in foreign ownership.

However the main point is the threat to the buisness of retailers offering passport photos, and with some photo retailers it can amount to almost 40% of their takings. That goes, they go and another shop closes on the high street.

 

[OldWelshGuy]

But there won't be competition - that is the point, it will end up as a monopoly.

Passport photos have always been produced onto photo paper. The Post Office system ( paid for by UK taxpayers) will be totally electronic/digital.

If the Post Offices would be able to deal with the demand that would be OK, but it is debatable that they would. It is unlikely that the systems would go into every Post Office, so the public would have to find specific ones. The public have choice and options now, they wouldn't in the future.

It is also worth bearing in mind here that the Post Office is very likely to be sold off at some point, so all this would end up , quite possibly in foreign ownership.

However the main point is the threat to the buisness of retailers offering passport photos, and with some photo retailers it can amount to almost 40% of their takings. That goes, they go and another shop closes on the high street.

Xenophobia at its best. I honestly don't have a problem with post offices being in foreingn hands, are you saying that all snappy snaps franchises etc are owned by british citizens?

 

[Mark Amies]

Sorry , I was not being Xenophobic.

Yes , the majority of Snappy Snaps franchises are indeed owned by British Citizens.

 

[OldWelshGuy]

I was pulling your leg and pointing out the irony in it all.

While I can empathise with the photo places, they really needed to have got ready for this. paper photos are getting less and less,. I am involved with sport and we are moving to electronic imagry for registration cards. The savings in time and the environment are huge.

 

[Banned]

Why the worry, was a petition started when estate agents started using digital cameras and printers to take and produce their own photographers. That was a much bigger market than passports ever will be.

The traditional photographic shop died a decade or more ago, and snappy snaps days are surely numbered.

 

[Mark Amies]

Thanks.

Well, I am in the business of photographic supply , so I am here to do my best for them.

You are of course intitled to your views Banned, but the days of photo shops are not numbered. Maybe it's been a while since you went in one, but they do more than just photo processing.

In addition their has been discussion in Parliament about this

 

[Consultant sea]

At the same time as this is happening the UK Border Agency is also steering applicants for residents' permits for foreign nationals to the PO on-line process.

Quoted from the link and this makes absolutely no sense at all as it takes no business away from the photo companies.

The UK Border Agency take Biometrics details from most UK Immigration applicants in country which involves a digital finger print scan and a digital photograph. This information then appears on the applicants Biometrics Resident Permit Card which they use when entering the UK as opposed to the old vignette type visa stamp in the passport. After the 29th Feb 2012 all applicants for Indefinite Leave to Remain in the UK (Permanent Residence) will also have to provide Biometrics details meaning that all application categories now have to give these. This will create even more pressure on the already strained PEOs.

The UKBA Public Enquiry Offices (only 7 in the UK) that currently take your Biometrics details are completely overloaded so a trial with the post office which has proved successful means that they are now adding this service to more post offices (but not all) so immigrants can provide this information easier.

This also requires the Post office to install expensive systems to record this information. After making their visa application by mail they get a letter inviting them to give these details at their nearest PEO or if available at a post office. They just go in and show the UKBA letter and complete the process.

Also to note that regardless of giving Biometrics details applicants still have to provide 2 passport sized photos in hard copy which is stored in a file with other physical proof as they keep a hard copy of everyone's application in the event of IT failure/hack etc. So these photo places are not losing out in this situation.

 

[Mark Amies]

Thanks for the response.

Well the 'save the photographers' campaign was put together as a joint project by The Photo Marketing Association ( PMA ) and PhotoMe. They were clearly very concerned about the potential threat. PhotoMe have a considerable vested nterest in the printed passport photo market, with it's photo booths.

So it was speareheaded by these organisations, to appeal to peopel in the trade and outside.

 

[Banned]

Thanks.

Well, I am in the business of photographic supply , so I am here to do my best for them.

You are of course intitled to your views Banned, but the days of photo shops are not numbered. Maybe it's been a while since you went in one, but they do more than just photo processing.

In addition their has been discussion in Parliament about this

Oh I know what they do very well, and they have to keep changing to survive as technology overtakes them. This is just another change they will have to deal with, every business has to adapt. Just like record shops have lost massive market share to the digital age, again no petition there either - why would there be?

It's also worth remembering that Post Offices themselves have lost a vast amount of business thanks mainly to the internet, hence why so many have closed down. If they can find a service they can add to survive surely it's only right they do so.

 

[Mark Amies]

Ok, and if the Post Office gets this monopoly artificially?

To see something that was in a free market ( and I thought we were in free market conditions) , taken away by a Government and handed to a state run business ( that will likely be sold off anyway) is rather perculiar.

You recall when you could only buy postage stamps from the Post Office, and then it was given to the free market - and you can buy stamps absoultely anywhere now?

 

[Banned]

Ok, and if the Post Office gets this monopoly artificially?

To see something that was in a free market ( and I thought we were in free market conditions) , taken away by a Government and handed to a state run business ( that will likely be sold off anyway) is rather perculiar.

You recall when you could only buy postage stamps from the Post Office, and then it was given to the free market - and you can buy stamps absoultely anywhere now?

Why is it no longer a free market? Those potentially loosing out just need to add value, which is what these new machines have done for the PO. Let's face it Post Offices have had photo booths for years now.

No one is banning Snappy Snaps from producing passport photo's. Simple really. And why do photo shops need or deserve special protection?

 

[OldWelshGuy]

If these machines are going in, then there is a chance that there will also be passport application points being rolled out, especially if 9as you claim) the post office will not be able to handle the volume.

Amazing how some see a problem where others see opportunity.

 

[cmcp]

So what exactly is the problem here? Looks like they have made life easier for all concerned by placing the image point at the point of order?

I honestly don;t see an issue.

I totally agree. The post office are putting the needs of the user at the heart of its service. All the photo booth companies are concerned about are their profits. They were asleep and lost their footing.

Always keep the needs of the user at the core of your service.

 

[InPrintImaging]

If Snappy Snaps and the Post Office want to fight this out let them. As a photographer, passport photographs have never been a viable market anyway as the mark up is simply too low. Much better to concentrate on a high value up market service where the client will part with money rather than fool around with tiny prints in 3 minutes for peanuts.

 

[Photovision]

My thoughts on this as someone who has not and will not do passports photos...

It's a bad idea purely because a potential monopoly is ALWAYS a bad idea.

If it happened naturally where you had the OPTION to use whoever you liked the fine the PO have done a great job and gained market share.

Have you been to a PO lately? 30 min queues at the best of times and then everyone will NEED to go there for PP images? how long will the queue get then? That'll drive more people away from the PO and lose them business long term because you don't think a loss making business is going to employ extra staff for the purpose do you?

Remember these are the asshats that like to strike if they get extra work? How would you feel if they were on strike when you needed to get your image done and they wrecked your holiday? Currently you have a choice to go elsewhere and save your hols, but you won't if this goes through.

I know one business that relies on 43% of their trade for passports.

If the government took that away from you would you not be up in arms?

And I do mean take away not allow competition.

If this goes through he will go out of business, pure and simple, and it's not because he's a fly by night, he's been doing it for years and at a high standard.

Competition is good it encourages growth and evolution.

With no competition how expensive do you suppose it'll get to travel abroad? Once the government have this under their belt, then it's not a far stretch of the imagination to assume they'll then insist we all have ID cards that require you to go to the PO and get it done. Nice money making scheme right there.

And as for the guy who said the traditional photolab died out a decade ago, hehe I bet he's the same type of person that thinks his images are safe on a writable dvd, Sure the photo industry has changed remarkably but traditional photolabs are still here and doing alright thank you!

 

[Banned]

The guy who said traditional photolabs died out a decade ago said so because he (oooerr, referring to myself in the third person ) used to be in the photographic retail/studio business and saw the business die with advent of digital cameras and printers destroying not only the D&P/Film sales (which as you know is where the profit lies), but also finish off a very lucrative business not only taking the photographs for estate agents, but the many thousand prints per day we supplied for their details.

Face it, today very few people use film, batteries, D&P. Even fewer DIY D&P (another huge margin area). Cameras that the majority of people use cost under £100 and are considered disposable, that's if they buy one at all as many people have a very capable camera in their phone (who would have seen that coming fifteen/twenty years ago!).

So what's left for snappy snaps and the like? Frames, the odd D&P and film sale. Printing on mugs, shirts and coasters (always a bit naff a set of coasters with a picture of snotty toddler on). Sales of printer ink and paper?

Let's face it the once mighty Kodak are on the verge of going tits-up, they have had their day. Technology moves on and businesses that were once viable are no longer relevant. Maybe it's time to get out of you trade before the decision is taken out of your hands.

Sure the photo industry has changed remarkably but traditional photolabs are still here and doing alright thank you!

If this is true why all the worry?

 

[Photovision]

I'm intrigued as to why we should shut when both profit and turnover are up year on year and we have had to take on extra staff to cope with demand?

Yeah it's quiet at the moment but it's that time of year and EVERYBODY is struggling.

Like I said the photo industry HAS changed dramatically, but as I also said we're also doing ok too.

I always see a recession as an opportunity to sort the wheat from the chaff so while a few well respected names have decided to take a well deserved early retirement this year, they did so through choice.

a LOT of the other ones that shut down were simply not good enough, either in quality or service and quite frankly probably were only in it because they thought it was a money printing license.

Kodak will not disappear as Polaroid haven't, it may change but it won't go away.

Camera Phone's ........ nice idea and indeed popluar but the only one that is capable of outputting the a 12x16 inch print for example is the iphone 4s, everything else is only good enough for facebook, if that.....

So what caused your Lab to close down?

 

[Banned]

So what caused your Lab to close down?

Kodak filed for bankruptcy protection just a few weeks ago http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-16625725

I think my previous post makes it clear why I got out of the photographic business, so I won't repeat myself repeat myself

I agree on the camera phones, but they do the job most people want and most people don't want large prints - many don't want physical prints at all.

It is all tragic though that photo's are not being kept in album to be looked at like we used to do. Now they stored on a computer and often lost, or put of cd's which may have a limited life (I don't believe there is conclusive proof on this as I have cd's going back twenty plus years that still appear fine).

 

[mhall]

everything else is only good enough for facebook, if that.....

Sadly, it seems that Facebook is more than enough to use as photo albums for the vast majority of people, especially the younger ones

 

[Photovision]

Sure Kodak filed for protection in the US, but not over here,

Don't get me wrong they're struggling but thats due to ineptness in marketing what they created...... which was digital photography, if they'd done it right EVERYONE would have Kodak parts in their camera and phones, but they didn't do it right.

From what I can see in your post you got out as you lost estate agent printing for example, did you not think to diversify? we lost about £3000 a month when they slowly went digital but we adapted and no longer miss that money

Heres what we do

Developing
Printing
Frames (not framing)
Batteries
Memory Cards
Photogifts (produced on site, introduced last year but not making money yet)

No inkjet sundries, no home printing papers, no blank cd's and no passport images which is what this thread is about after all.

we sell nothing the home enthusiast wants or needs and yet we are still making money, and we still have a couple of estate agents on our books

How?

We don't do budget or cheap, that devalues our name and reputation.

well not to sound arrogant but we are damn good at it. We're based in SE UK and we get orders from all over the UK because of our reputation for caring about what we put out.

If you are good at what you do, you will survive and grow, if not you'll fall by the wayside, it's business, it's nature, it's survival of the fittest.

but back to the orginal topic, this is like you being told you could no longer do estate agents photo's they will all be taken by the PO in future as they are unable to adapt to survive so you'll be put out of business to support something the government want

options and choices should not be taken away by the Government, Pure and simple.

 

[Banned]

From what I can see in your post you got out as you lost estate agent printing for example, did you not think to diversify? we lost about £3000 a month when they slowly went digital but we adapted and no longer miss that money

I'll be honest we got out because with digital coming, and the easy money from the estate agents gone, all interest was going and it wasn't a fight I wished to take on. Where's the joy in selling a point a shot box, these days no one is interested in the glass used in a lens, shutter speeds and apertures. There was a joy in setting up customers with the best combination on body, lenses, flash and filters for their needs. You just don't get that with digital, it's all impersonal buttons and screens.

Saying that I do, like most people, now use just a digital compact, so easy and instant.

Anyhow, long and short of it is this was back in the early 90's and I could see the way photography was going and didn't like the look of it so away I went with no regrets. Did a milkround for a few years after that, bit like a holiday it was but something else that has died - perhaps it's me jinxing every business I touch

 

[Mark Amies]

The Kodak story was grossly distorted by the news media.

They have not gone bankrupt.

Business in Europe carries on as usual.

Photo retailers do a whole lot more than soem people realise, they sell photo gift items, photo books, wide format poster and canvas printing, etc...

 

[Mark Amies]

Clearly there seems little sympathy for the photo industry here, which seems a shame.

If anyone does this that the photo industry is dead, then you are wrong .

Every year a large trade show is held at the NEC called Focus on Imaging-

(space where I would have put the link)

and every other year in Germany a huge trade show called Photokina -

( space where I would have put the link)

- occupies 11 halls of the enormous Koelnmesse complex

They are living proof that there is still a beating heart to the industry .

 

[Mark Amies]

Now I have done the necessary 15 posts :redface: , here are those two links-

http://www.photokina.com/en/photokina/home/index.php

http://www.focus-on-imaging.co.uk/home.htm

 

[jones the diesel]

Hiya I to am like photovision, providing similar services and also portraiture and Wedding Photography services.

The photos on mugs etc may look naff, but IT MAKES MONEY, we are in this to make money and the customer is the person who gives us money, if they like it we sell it. Now where can I find some snow quickly to sell to the eskimo that has just walked into my shop!

Nick

 

[Mark Amies]

Nice to see some response here from those hard at work 'at the coalface'.

Hopefully this might help to give a bit of balance. Of course it is worth revisiting the start point of the thread.

I would just like to say that the reason why came back onto this forum was that I get the twitter feed from it and I thought it would be a great place to bring up the possible plight of some of these retailers.

I realise that if your are not in the photo retail it may be something that you were never aware of - I mean it is just a fomality , getting passport photo. Thing is that it matters to those whose businesses depend on it, and has done for many years. Yes, you can say "Well you have to move with the times" , or " Good luck to the Post Office, it's struggling" , but it really does go alot deeper than this. This sitaution is being forced by our Government , not free market forces.

In my opinion it is not democratic, and not what I expect from a majority capitalist government who preached the free market mantra, and do so still.

It has more of a ring of a move from a stalinist regime. But hey , that is just my thoughts.

 

[dynamic08]

BOO HOO!

We are all having prices increased by Royal Mail and VAT slapped on top. Things change in business you can have your cake and eat it.

If you put all your eggs in one basket then thats your bad choice!

Stop moaning and get on with it.

 

[aussiecameras]

What a disappointing response from many of those posting here! The whole point is that Post Offices are going to be given an advantage over thousands of independent operators.
Surely the whole point of being on a business forum is to support small business !!!!

Members of the general public are much more concerned about the survival of their local photoshop than these supposed business people and many of those stores still in business are seeing excellent growth in many areas of business.