PO Box or Virtual Address

[getsetgonline]

Hi
We are moving from our office to work from home having converted our garage to an office. I run a couple of businesses, with the main being an online business and we currently have our office address on the website. Clients cant actually visit our office to purchase but am wondering what will be best as I dont want people turning up at home unannounced. I've been down this route before and had clients turn up at 7PM on a Friday night!

Anyway, what would you suggest is best - a PO Box address or a virtual address? PO Box is cheaper and serves its purpose wonderfully but wonder if this may put clients off?

 

[DesignerNick]

Virtual Address I think

 

[captaincloser]

PO Box does put some people off. Virtual address has several plus points even if it costs a little more.

Yes, giving your home address is no longer an option in society I believe.

Should pay for itself and good luck

 

[getsetgonline]

Can a virtual address be used for the Registered Address at companies house????

 

[cjd]

You can't use a PO Box and sell things on line. Or not legally anyway.

If you ar a limited company you can use your solicitor or accountant as your registered address.

 

[getsetgonline]

You can't use a PO Box and sell things on line. Or not legally anyway.

Is this true? I've never heard that. Can a virtual address be used?

 

[cjd]

Is this true? I've never heard that. Can a virtual address be used?

Nope.

See para 4.2

http://www.oft.gov.uk/shared_oft/business_leaflets/general/oft698.pdf

 

[belmorefinance]

Is this true? I've never heard that. Can a virtual address be used?

PO Box is neither legal for online trading nor useful if you want to keep your credibility.

Going for the virtual address is definately a better option for you especially it doesn`t cost too much to pay for one.

Cheers

 

[finejewellerys]

There are many business owners would like to use the virtual address for their business to show the honesty and credibility.Po box address couldn't use for shipment sometimes.It will delay the business circle.

 

[Super Simon]

I personally don't see a problem using a PO BOX.

I know Mailboxes etc offer a "Registered Address" service and there's no mention of the words "PO BOX" in the title whatsoever.

Simply, Suite 123 or Office 123 (plus other options).

I fail to see how this would put anyone off.

 

[cjd]

I personally don't see a problem using a PO BOX.

But the law does

In all cases you must also give your consumers the following information in a durable medium:
I when and how to exercise their rights under the DSRs to cancel including:
I for goods – whether you require goods to be returned by the consumer and if so who will pay for their return. For more information on this see paragraph 3.55
I for services – the consequence of agreeing to a service starting before the end of the usual seven working day cancellation period. See paragraph 3.22 under ‘Cancellation rights’
I details of any guarantees or after-sales services
I the geographic address of the business to which the consumer may direct any complaints. There is no definition of ‘geographic address’ in the DSRs but our view is that this means a physical location, so a P O Box address is not sufficient,

http://www.oft.gov.uk/shared_oft/business_leaflets/general/oft698.pdf

 

[mhall]

Bear in mind that a PO Box does not give you any "anominity". If asked, the Royal Mail must disclose the actual address the PO Box is regsitered to

 

[Super Simon]

But the law does

No it doesn't.

the geographic address of the business to which the consumer
may direct any complaints. There is no definition of 'geographic
address' in the DSRs but our view is that this means a physical
location, so a P O Box address is not sufficient...

That's an opinion of the OFT, not part of legislation.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2000/2334/pdfs/uksi_20002334_en.pdf

 

[cjd]

I wish you luck with your defence.

But why make it hard for yourself? I would never buy from a website that only used a PO Box - why would anyone if they had a choice?

 

[spiritadventures]

No it doesn't.

That's an opinion of the OFT, not part of legislation.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2000/2334/pdfs/uksi_20002334_en.pdf

If you are selling online, it is legislation, it is in the distance regs as well. For example:

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2000/2334/regulation/8/made

 

[TODonnell]

1. You can use a P.O. Box to do business on or off the internet
2. You can use a virtual address to do business on or off the internet

3. You can use a P.O. box as a Registered Office at Companies House, provided the full address is given, including the postcode, and it is validated by the Royal Mail.
4. You can use a virtual address as Registered Office at Companies House.

AFAIK:

5. You can't use P.O. Box in a bank account application.
6. You can use a virtual address in a bank account application for your company except they will check your personal credit history and send debit cards to your home address (due diligence, safety, etc.).

Where your business involves suspicious clients then a virtual address is better than a P.O. box and a 'bricks-and-mortar' address is better than a virtual address.

 

[Super Simon]

I wish you luck with your defence.

But why make it hard for yourself? I would never buy from a website that only used a PO Box - why would anyone if they had a choice?

It's not about that, it's about incorrect information which you have supplied in your earlier posts.

Businesses use PO BOX addresses for all sorts of reasons, particularly if they work from home.

 

[captaincloser]

I personally don't see a problem using a PO BOX.

I know Mailboxes etc offer a "Registered Address" service and there's no mention of the words "PO BOX" in the title whatsoever.

Simply, Suite 123 or Office 123 (plus other options).

I fail to see how this would put anyone off.

Thats because Mailboxes etc do NOT offer and CANNOT offer a PO box service..only the PO can do that ! That would be the Post Office.

Mailboxes etc are a franchise and very often an excellent option for the small business particularly for courier packages etc.

My personal opinion is that the Post Office and all its services ceased being a reliable option for anything except its opening times around 1970.

 

[Super Simon]

If you are selling online, it is legislation, it is in the distance regs as well. For example:

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2000/2334/regulation/8/made

The law states;

the geographical address of the place of business of the supplier to which the consumer may address any complaints;

It mentions nothing regarding the use of a PO BOX. The previous quote about PO BOXES are an opinion of the OFT, not the law.

 

[cjd]

It mentions nothing regarding the use of a PO BOX. The previous quote about PO BOXES are an opinion of the OFT, not the law.

So, you're in court defending your opinion that the DSRs don't require you to use a real address to trade online.

The prosecution says that they think it does. They point to section 8.2.c of the The Consumer Protection (Distance Selling) Regulations 2000 which says:

8.—(1) Subject to regulation 9, the supplier shall provide to the consumer in writing, or in another durable medium which is available and accessible to the consumer, the information referred to in paragraph (2), .......—
c. the geographical address of the place of business of the supplier to which the consumer may address any complaints;

They then quote the Office of Fair Trading's guidance on the matter which says

our view is that this means a physical location, so a P O Box address is not sufficient,

Now, who's view do you think wins?

Of course, it's always open to individuals to test the law, but really, why make life hard?

 

[Super Simon]

So, you're in court defending your opinion that the DSRs don't require you to use a real address to trade online.

The prosecution says that they think it does. They point to section 8.2.c of the The Consumer Protection (Distance Selling) Regulations 2000 which says:

A PO BOX is a real address. It is the OFT's interpretation of the law that suggests a PO BOX shouldn't be used, not how the law is written.

They then quote the Office of Fair Trading's guidance on the matter which says

Now, who's view do you think wins?

Of course, it's always open to individuals to test the law, but really, why make life hard?

So you're suggesting the OFT are favoured or even perhaps infallible? I think the supreme court ruling against them in November 2009 would suggest otherwise.

http://www.oft.gov.uk/news-and-updates/press/2009/137-09

 

[Dave Kinnel]

There are many business owners would like to use the virtual address for their business to show the honesty and credibility.

How does having a false address give your business honesty and credibility then? Does the exact opposite when your found out.

 

[spiritadventures]

Don't get me wrong - I think the DSRs were so badly written, you could pick enough holes in it to make a nice fishing net! However, in my opinion (and this is just my personal opinion) the spirit of the DSRS is to make a web business transparent to its customers -a geographical address is interpreted by me to mean a physical geographical address which I believe is perceived as more transparent to a customer. I wouldn't want to be on the defending end in court over a different interpretation.

 

[captaincloser]

How does having a false address give your business honesty and credibility then? Does the exact opposite when your found out.

Everyone from Multinationals down use PO boxes and Mailbox addresses. Thousands of businesses worldwide...

You are confusing the fact that criminals also use maildrops...what do you mean by 'found out' ? Do you have some knowledge on this one you can share ?

 

[Dave Kinnel]

Everyone from Multinationals down use PO boxes and Mailbox addresses. Thousands of businesses worldwide...

You are confusing the fact that criminals also use maildrops...what do you mean by 'found out' ? Do you have some knowledge on this one you can share ?

I'm was replying to virtual business addresses not PO boxes.

Where's the honesty in "Backbedroom SEO" claiming to be in St.James Square when they are in the 10ft x 6ft box room at No.10 Council House Row, Grimsby (no offence to Grimsby).

 

[cjd]

A PO BOX is a real address. It is the OFT's interpretation of the law that suggests a PO BOX shouldn't be used, not how the law is written.

As I say, you're entitled to test your opinion in law; personally, I'd really rather not go up against the OFT in the Supreme Court even if they did lose one judgement in a non-related case.

I somehow think, that if you could afford the defence, any win would be rather pyrrhic. But do let us know how you get on.

Meanwhile, in my view, it's sensible not to test the law and to provide an address that will give your customers some comfort that you're not hiding behind a PO Box number whilst trading from Nigeria.

I rest my case.

 

[spiritadventures]

Just out of curiosity - If the DSRs specifically state a "geographical address" and say we do put POs and virtuals under that umbrella...what you define as a non-geographical address?

 

[Super Simon]

As I say, you're entitled to test your opinion in law; personally, I'd really rather not go up against the OFT in the Supreme Court even if they did lose one judgement in a non-related case.

I somehow think, that if you could afford the defence, any win would be rather pyrrhic. But do let us know how you get on.

Meanwhile, in my view, it's sensible not to test the law and to provide an address that will give your customers some comfort that you're not hiding behind a PO Box number whilst trading from Nigeria.

I rest my case.

I think this all boils down to the fact you were informing people it's illegal to use a PO BOX, when it isn't.

I respect your opinion.

 

[captaincloser]

I'm was replying to virtual business addresses not PO boxes.

Where's the honesty in "Backbedroom SEO" claiming to be in St.James Square when they are in the 10ft x 6ft box room at No.10 Council House Row, Grimsby (no offence to Grimsby).

Poor old Grimsby.Another kicking.

PO boxes are used just as much by bad guys...same as street addresses are used by bad guys. Virtual addresses are perfectly legitimate but also used by bad guys...

Grimsby may or may not be used by bad guys... bad guys are out there and they use everything good guys use.

I am not going to incur the wrath of anyone so no comment on 'Backbedroom SEO'..except that its probably handy there to get mum to 'put a brew on' for the workers.

 

[cjd]

Just out of curiosity - If the DSRs specifically state a "geographical address" and say we do put POs and virtuals under that umbrella...what you define as a non-geographical address?

In law, areas of definition have to pass the 'reasonable person, reasonably informed' test.

In other words, a geographical address will mean what you or I take it to mean ie a real place that can be visited in the usual way of finding the house number and street.

It is my case, milord, that a PO Box number, fails the reasonable man test - because you can't find it on a map, it is therefore a 'non-geographical' address.

Your honour, It is also my case, that the intent of the law is to provide the consumer with a physical location to which he or she can visit or address a correspondence with confidence that the merchant actually trades from those premises and is not simply a charlatans hiding from his responsibilities.

 

[spiritadventures]

In law, areas of definition have to pass the 'reasonable person, reasonably informed' test.

In other words, a geographical address will mean what you or I take it to mean ie a real place that can be visited in the usual way of finding the house number and street.

It is my case, milord, that a PO Box number, fails the reasonable man test - because you can't find it on a map, it is therefore a 'non-geographical' address.

Your honour, It is also my case, that the intent of the law is to provide the consumer with a physical location to which he or she can visit or address a correspondence with confidence that the merchant actually trades from those premises and is not simply a charlatans hiding from his responsibilities.

lol- agreed! Case dismissed!
I only ask because I think if DSRs did interpret all 3 address options as "geographical" there would be no need to put the term "geographical" in there in the first place...unless (and this is really playing devils advocate..) you are distinguishing between a mailing address and an email address.

 

[No Missed Calls]

I think PO Box addresses put off customers - use a virtual address, it looks far more professional and credible

 

[Super Simon]

..and is not simply a charlatans hiding from his responsibilities.

That's an entirely bigoted comment and nothing short of offensive for those who chose to use such a service.

I suggest you ask the reasons why people use PO Boxes, Mailboxes and Virtual Addresses before you contine to make sweeping accusations such as that.

 

[Dave Kinnel]

That's an entirely bigoted comment and nothing short of offensive for those who chose to use such a service.

I suggest you ask the reasons why people use PO Boxes, Mailboxes and Virtual Addresses before you contine to make sweeping accusations such as that.

I'll ask on his behalf, why do you use a virtual address rather your own if your not trying to hide something?

PO Boxes can be for very legit reasons - large companies effectively get their mail delivered already sorted into departments, can't say I know of a large company that solely uses a PO Box as it's only contact point though.

 

[Super Simon]

I'll ask on his behalf, why do you use a virtual address rather your own if your not trying to hide something?

PO Boxes can be for very legit reasons - large companies effectively get their mail delivered already sorted into departments, can't say I know of a large company that solely uses a PO Box as it's only contact point though.

I don't use a virtual address, nor do I use a PO Box.

I would have absolutely nothing to hide should I decide to use one. If I ran a home-based advertising company for example, I would much rather my business post, whether it be complaints, HMRC letters, general enquiries etc be sent to an address that I use for business.

Just like anybody else, as a business owner, I have right to home privacy.

 

[Dave Kinnel]

Just like anybody else, as a business owner, I have right to home privacy.

Well that's not quiet true is it, how do you meet clients at a virtual address, do you not look a fool when a client suggest a meeting at your office and you have to admit you don't have one? Just smacks of an unprofessional set up, or scam.

If you want home privacy rent a cheap office, can cost as little as a few hundred a month for your own self-contained space and gives you a real business address rather than a pretend one.

If your hiding behind a virtual office for whatever reason, and you are hiding, then one way or another you are trying to fool your customers.

 

[captaincloser]

Well that's not quiet true is it, how do you meet clients at a virtual address, do you not look a fool when a client suggest a meeting at your office and you have to admit you don't have one? Just smacks of an unprofessional set up, or scam.

If your hiding behind a virtual office for whatever reason, and you are hiding, then one way or another you are trying to fool your customers.

Next time you are in London take some time off from your conspiracy theory and have a look at some of the 1000 + serviced office buildings most of which will also cater as virtual offices for work at home professionals/corporate overflow/foreign companies/start ups et etc. All of which have meeting rooms and used constantly by the very same people.

Its neither unprofessional or a scam...but be assured scammers are out there in abundance in every walk of life. Even in your own street so take it easy...

 

[Super Simon]

Well that's not quiet true is it, how do you meet clients at a virtual address, do you not look a fool when a client suggest a meeting at your office and you have to admit you don't have one? Just smacks of an unprofessional set up, or scam.

If you want home privacy rent a cheap office, can cost as little as a few hundred a month for your own self-contained space and gives you a real business address rather than a pretend one.

If your hiding behind a virtual office for whatever reason, and you are hiding, then one way or another you are trying to fool your customers.

What if it's not your business to meet clients at your address? I think you should stop tarring every business with the same brush. Each business has different needs for an address, and therefore one requirement of a business isn't always the same as the next one.

And also, what solution do you suggest for those who don't have the spare "few hundred pounds a month" that you may have?

As for fooling customers, I don't believe that to be true. You could apply the same rule to any business, e.g. a company registered outside of London who decides to operate from a London office because it offers nothing more "prestige".

I would like to point out, I have no affilation to any mail-handling/service etc businesses and I consider my opinion to be completely impartial. As a consumer, I wouldn't have a problem purchasing an item from a distance seller who traded from a PO Box or virtual address, and subsequently, the law doesn't either, as cited in my earlier post.

 

[Dave Kinnel]

Next time you are in London take some time off from your conspiracy theory and have a look at some of the 1000 + serviced office buildings most of which will also cater as virtual offices for work at home professionals/corporate overflow/foreign companies/start ups et etc. All of which have meeting rooms and used constantly by the very same people.

Its neither unprofessional or a scam...but be assured scammers are out there in abundance in every walk of life. Even in your own street so take it easy...

Sorry, I'm about the work at home people (nothing wrong with that by the way) who use a virtual address to hide the fact they do work from home. Not on about offices by the hour, large corporates who obviously don't use a virtual address as their main business address but will use temporary addresses for projects/recruitment. Or even temporary offices as they are not virtual.

I'll say it again, if your a back bedroom boy working in Grismby it is deceitful to have a virtual office in St.James Square as your business address. I can see no reason why a business would do this if it were not to deceive.

 

[cjd]

That's an entirely bigoted comment and nothing short of offensive for those who chose to use such a service.

Gosh, you're terribly easily offended - and on behalf of others too!

So tell me then, if the intent of that section of the DSR is not to protect consumers from rogue traders hiding behind fake identities, then what is its purpose?

Be aware that the design of the DSRs is to put the customer into the same situation buying on line as he is when he buys from the High Street. A major part of that is the ability to take you stuff back to a physical location if necessary.

I suggest you ask the reasons why people use PO Boxes, Mailboxes and Virtual Addresses before you contine to make sweeping accusations such as that.

I am not accusing anyone of anything. We're talking here about consumer perception. I also know why people use PO Boxes and virtual addresses - for the simple reason that I use one myself.

If you look at our website, you'll see our London address, this is actually our data centre where our equipment is located. We have use of an office for meetings and training and mail collection point there. You'll also see our registered address which is our accountant's office. And finally, if you need to return something you've bought from us, we issue you with an RMA address which is our equipment supplier.

There are no Voipfone staff at any of those locations on a day to day basis - that's because we are a virtual company; all our staff work from home using our own comms technologies.

It all works perfectly and legally and all three addresses are physical locations that can be visited if necessary.

So why not use a PO Box? Well in my opinion, it's against the law (but we've had that discussion) and secondly, it's a big turn-off for customer confidence.

Like it or not, it has a scammy image for a small company - it tells the reader that you either don't have an office (most likely) and/or you don't want people to go to you. This is because anyone with a real office who wanted you to know that they were a real business would publish the address wouldn't they?

Now this is just perception and of course most people using PO Boxes are perfectly decent companies just trying to make a living, but in my opinion it's a turn-off and projects the wrong image.

Probably worth me saying it again for the hard of reading. This doesn't mean that I think that all people using a PO Box are bent. Of course they're not - generally they use a PO Box because that's all they can do.