please help me!

[paulmancuk]

I am a gay man working in an advertising agency, they do not know I am gay at present. I feel very strongly about something that's just happened and am wondering where I stand. A christian customer who gets signs made at the agency I work for, so he can stand in Manchester preaching the bible, has just brought in a sign he wants my company to make. The sign says "Warning! Homosexuals, repent or go to hell!"

Am I being over sensitive or as a gay man should I tear this info up and expect my boss to refuse to make signs of such nature. We only charge £30 a sign so it's not as if he's a big customer. Could I get sacked for tearing up and refusing to do work? Can our company get sued for discriminating against a religious person?

Thanks Paul

 

[Mattonella Tile Studio]

I don't think you're being over sensitive. I'm not a gay man and am appalled that somebody wants to make a sign such as that.

I don't know the legal answer but morally make the sign and belt the customer round the head with it.

 

[Rain-Bows]

I don't think you're being over sensitive. I'm not a gay man and am appalled that somebody wants to make a sign such as that.

I don't know the legal answer but morally make the sign and belt the customer round the head with it.

i didnt realise there were still people like that in the world!!

whatever happened to live and let live ???

im with Mattonella on this one!!

Donna
xxxxx

 

[paulmancuk]

thanks! i thought i was being a 'pc' clown! ahhhh sigh of relief!

 

[obscure]

The sign says "Warning! Homosexuals, repent or go to hell!"

Over sensitive? Not necessarily but I do think it's important in life to pick your fights. This person is offering advise to gay people (and obviously implying that being gay is "wrong" at the same time). Do you believe him? Do you think others whose opinions matter to you will believe him? Are you Christian and are offended as a Christian? If the answer is no then ignore him.

...should I tear this info up and expect my boss to refuse to make signs of such nature. We only charge £30 a sign so it's not as if he's a big customer. Could I get sacked for tearing up and refusing to do work?

If you want to inform your boss that you are unhappy that is up to you but this person isn't doing anything illegal and destroying work or failing to work COULD be grounds for disciplinary action. You won't really know unless you talk to your boss. If you do it in a calm, non-confrontational way, just asking what he thinks of the sign, you may find out that he actually agrees with you.

Can our company get sued for discriminating against a religious person?

The company wouldn't be refusing to do the work on the grounds that the man is Christian but on the grounds that they disagree with his views on homosexuals so there is no religious discrimination.

 

[maria102]

I know that you haven't got anyone from here giving legal advice yet, but as a straight woman I would object to this, it is not necessarily relevant that you yourself are gay, its offensive to anyone. It could be race or religion related, its discrimination and I think you have a right to object in being part of the production of such hideous bigotry.

 

[paulmancuk]

thank you, thats the one answer i was looking for "there is no religious discrimination" as for asking my boss what he thinks, well lets just say that Im taking him to an employment tribunal for discrimination on grounds of sexual orientation, so I don't think I will ask him.

"it's important in life to pick your fights" true, but as our sign maker just said when I asked him to refuse to make the sign "everyones entitled to their opinion, and so am I, so my opinion is... im going to rip up the sign!! And I really do not like the fact hes going to be waving these signs in my city!

 

[Mister B]

Stand your ground is what I say.

I get fed up of people playing the gay/coloured/feminist card when they do not have any justification but in this instance, I think that the Christian in question is being offensive.

Approach it with tact and diplomacy and your manager should be understanding.

Good luck with it.

Mister B

 

[paulmancuk]

thanks mister b and maria, you've made me feel alot better xxx

 

[sjbeale]

The client is potentially guilty of sexual orientation discrimination. Potentially if your company gets involved with designing/printing this you could be in trouble. I would take this approach with your boss rather than volunteer personal details about yourself.

You have the legal right to be who you are and to share this information with colleagues as you wish, but you need to focus on the main issue here which is regarding the client's project.

 

[scm5436]

The client is potentially guilty of sexual orientation discrimination

woah - whatever happened to the right to free speech???

If the guy wants to wander round with a sign that tells everyone what a biggoted nutball he is why not let him? You never know someone might take offence and give him a good slapping!

 

[paulmancuk]

yeah, freedom of speech which makes me wanna go home from work and never come back.

well, i just had it out with our sign man, told him i've ripped up the sign, he called the boss down who said "well if it's written in the bible" i said my arguement is that it offends me, a member of your staff, who's more important, a fly by customer who we make £10 per sign or a member of staff whoc worked for you for seven years?

Anyway, they've just reprimanded me, told me "who are you to dictate to us?" it's good to feel valued!!

 

[scm5436]

they've just reprimanded me

well to be fair, it's not your place to tell the customer to get lost. If you have an issue with the customer or with the sign you should have taken the issue to your boss and let him deal with it (if he then forced you to make the sign against your beliefs then you could have a case for discrimination).

who's more important, a fly by customer who we make £10 per sign or a member of staff who worked for you for seven years

Well, as you mentioned earlier that you were already taking him to an employment tribunal I suspect that your boss values you less than his stapler.

It's times like these I'm really glad I don't have employees (or a boss).

 

[MikeD08]

You mention that this just happened, and also state you are awaiting an employment tribunal claiming discrimination on grounds of sexual orientation.

I would assume that your boss knows that the tribunal is forthcoming and based on this I would assume that you're not his favourite member of staff hence his somewhat dismissive reply to your concerns.

With regards to the sign itself, I think I'd probably just ask a colleauge to handle this particular job.

 

[scm5436]

I would assume that your boss knows that the tribunal is forthcoming and based on this I would assume that you're not his favourite member of staff hence his somewhat dismissive reply to your concerns

Having said that you'd think the boss would be a bit more careful considering he's already on the receiving end of the tribunal, talk about giving them extra amunition.

 

[jamesbeat]

I think I'd probably say something, and I'm not gay.
If the company you work for is happy to print this type of material, then they have a problem.
Most businesses who deal with media tend to have rules about the use of their services (copyright etc), so maybe it would be worth reading the terms and conditions and seeing if this material violates any of it.
Then, all you'd have to do is point out the violation, and you might even get brownie points.

 

[OldWelshGuy]

Well what a load of rubbish that has been posted in this thread. I can't believe I have just read it.
1. A guy comes in and asks for a LEGAL sign to be made

2. YOU decide to censor the making of the sign unilaterally based on your own feelings, yet you believe you have doneno wrong?

Let me say right out that I am not anti gay, My ex business partner was gay (so was his boyfriend co-incidently) I have loads of gay friends, but I am going to have to say WISE UP.

Who are YOU to tell OTHERS what to believe? just because the sign offends you it gives you no right to do what you have done. For goodness sake how can you expect to rip it up and tell your boss you have done so, and not expect a warning? The proper way would have been to simply tell you boss you don't feel comfortable making the sign as you find it offensive. the ball would THEn have been in his court, and I can assure you that he would NEVER have issued a warning. You have gone and stymied yourself here.

I have more to post on this subject but want to get this up first.

 

[MikeD08]

"Who are YOU to tell OTHERS what to believe? just because the sign offends you it gives you no right to do what you have done. For goodness sake how can you expect to rip it up and tell your boss you have done so, and not expect a warning? The proper way would have been to simply tell you boss you don't feel comfortable making the sign as you find it offensive. the ball would THEn have been in his court, and I can assure you that he would NEVER have issued a warning. You have gone and stymied yourself here."

***nods in agreement***

 

[Mattonella Tile Studio]

As you've raised it - is the sign actually legal?

I would have thought it could fall down under some sort of public disorder offence as it's likely to cause trouble directed towards either the holder of the sign, or homophobic hatred.

Also are there not now laws in place for discrimination similar to racial and sexist. If the sign was for the British National Party and based on race I'm sure there would be problems under 'incitement to create racial hatred'.

 

[OldWelshGuy]

Sorry if I come across as passionate or aggressive, but 'freedom' runs both ways. If you want people to accept your right to be gay, then you MUSt respect their right NOT to. it follows naturally.

I am a christian, and I think the way the church has handledthe gay/female minstry thing is terrible. They have allowed gays and women to be ordained, BUT they have limited the level of office they are allowed to hold!

To me that is disgusting, we either welome gays and women into the cloth, or we don't. Limiting their office level is EXACTLY the same as not allowing them in in the first place IMO.

People can not change what they are, if they are gay, then that is what they are, no more, no less than other people. BUT if your sexuality means you can not do your job, then it is an issue.

The problem here is one of religious crossover. The ghuy is probably going to preach on levicticus 18:20 where it states " a man shall not lay with another man as a woman as itis an abomination to the lord". Now here is the thing, 'lay with' , so is it the act of one single homosexual practice that is wrong, or the act of being homosexual. No mention of woman and woman, so is it 'different for girls' as joe jackson said in a song ?

The issue is not as black and white as it appears, as we are dealing with translations from an ancient anguage. Also levcticus was believed to be more of a priests nadbook tna for general consumption, so is this instruction to priests only? Which brings us to is it ok to have gay priests as long as they are not practicing gay priests. A WHOLE bag or worms here.

BUT, the guys sign was based on his bible, and unfortunately you had no right to decide whether or not your COMPANY would do the job, only that YOU would refuse to do it.

 

[OldWelshGuy]

As you've raised it - is the sign actually legal?

I would have thought it could fall down under some sort of public disorder offence as it's likely to cause trouble directed towards either the holder of the sign, or homophobic hatred.

Also are there not now laws in place for discrimination similar to racial and sexist. If the sign was for the British National Party and based on race I'm sure there would be problems under 'incitement to create racial hatred'.

Not sure who the 'you ' is but if me, then ABSOLUTELY LEGAL.

Why do you think it is a public disorder issue? The guy is stating the outcome of a passage in the bible in EXACTLY the same way that girl from up the road went to the high court to allow her to wear her kara bracelet.

The bible (debatably) states that being homsexual is an abomination to the lord, so it is fair to say that unless you repent then you are going to hell, BASED ON HIS BELIEF AND UNDERSTANDING. that is the point you see. belief and understanding, freedom of speach.

Now if his sign said 'Burn in hell gays' or the like then it WOULD be wrong. What about the gay atheists? they don't believe in hell, so it doesn't affect them, it only affects people who believe in heaven and hell, so unless you do, then you really have a siully argument.

e.g. That man has offended me by having a sign saying I am going to a place I don't believe in!

 

[Mattonella Tile Studio]

Sorry if I come across as passionate or aggressive, but 'freedom' runs both ways. If you want people to accept your right to be gay, then you MUSt respect their right NOT to. it follows naturally.

Come on, there's a whole world of difference between respecting peoples rights not to be guy, and allowing them to publish hatred.

 

[noidea]

The Equality Act (Sexual Orientation) Regulations 2007 ??

 

[OldWelshGuy]

Come on, there's a whole world of difference between respecting peoples rights not to be guy, and allowing them to publish hatred.

Oh boy have you ever missed the intention of this banner.

READ IT AGAIN.

Repent or burn in hell. The guy is trying to HELP these people, not punish them.

His sign is no different to one saying 'gang members lay down your guns or die on the streets'

Honestly i am not condoning nor condemning anyone here, I am trying to argue for both sides.

But maybe I had better get out of this debate as like many others it is going to blow up.

 

[jamesbeat]

Sorry if I come across as passionate or aggressive, but 'freedom' runs both ways. If you want people to accept your right to be gay, then you MUSt respect their right NOT to. it follows naturally.

Well, I've never seen a gay man holding a placard telling people it's wrong not to be gay

I'm not sure if this falls under the new hate crime laws, but if it doesn't, it should.
I also think that unsolicited religious preaching should be illegal, but I guess that won't happen for a few years yet.

I shudder to think how this kind of thing must affect the minds of passing children, but I guess that's the idea...

 

[OldWelshGuy]

The Equality Act (Sexual Orientation) Regulations 2007 ??

What does that mean? Not sure what you are stating here. But isn't there a similar act for religious grounds?

 

[OldWelshGuy]

Well, I've never seen a gay man holding a placard telling people it's wrong not to be gay

I'm not sure if this falls under the new hate crime laws, but if it doesn't, it should.
I also think that unsolicited religious preaching should be illegal, but I guess that won't happen for a few years yet.

I shudder to think how this kind of thing must affect the minds of passing children, but I guess that's the idea...

It is a tough one that isn't it. Because if you ban religiou 'preaching' then you have to ban ALL public speaking. I happen to find being stopped in the street and hassled to support old people, starving kids, animals, cancer sufferrers, or to 'take a survey, or asked if I have had an accident, or what phone network i am on etc FAR more annoying than open preaching.

 

[obscure]

The customer is stupid and bigoted but having stupid and bigoted views isn't against the law. Attacking someone physically because they are gay (or not) is illegal. Inciting others to attack is also illegal. Holding a sign which informs people that (in this persons opinion) they will go to hell for their lifestyle choice, is not illegal. Stupid - yes, bigoted - yes, illegal? No.

Criminal damage however is illegal and that is what the OP has done by destroying someone else's property. If the signs are the property of the company (not yet paid for) then the company could take action. If they are the property of the customer they could take action against the company - which means the OP has exposed his employer to potential legal action. The OP is actually quite lucky to just get a warning.

OldWelsh is right. The sign is no different from one telling a drug user they will die if they continue using or that a pickpocket will go to hell for stealing. It is just the customers opinion and although that opinion is mean and rude and nasty it isn't illegal.

 

[estwig]

OldWelshGuy and Obscure are spot on, who the hell is the OP to sensor someone else's right to hold a sign in the High Street??

 

[OldWelshGuy]

It is just as wrong for a believer to force their beliefs on others as it is a non believer doing the same.

just because someone is stupid, doesn't make them bad

The problem with this debate is that we are treating it like a black and white either or, when there are so many issues.

1. is the banner illegal,
2. is the banner wrong
3. is the person using the banner wrong
4. is the person using the banner acting illegally
5. is the person using the banner acting immorally
6. Is the Op right to take offence
7. is the Op right to rip the sign up
8. is the ripping the sign up an illegal act
9... we could go on and on, but I think the point has been made.

 

[maria102]

.

OldWelsh is right. The sign is no different from one telling a drug user they will die if they continue using or that a pickpocket will go to hell for stealing. It is just the customers opinion and although that opinion is mean and rude and nasty it isn't illegal.

I've read this thread and I'm wondering what century we are in?! Jesus wept! (for the benefit of the Christians on here) because he surely would if he thought we are still hanging onto beliefs so of date.

Please, explain to me how people that are gay can be compared to pickpockets (how dickensian!) or drug users?

 

[maria102]

Oh boy have you ever missed the intention of this banner.

READ IT AGAIN.

Repent or burn in hell. The guy is trying to HELP these people, not punish them.

How the f*ck is that helping them? telling them that they will burn in hell! It's too ridiculous...

 

[OldWelshGuy]

I've read this thread and I'm wondering what century we are in?! Jesus wept! (for the benefit of the Christians on here) because he surely would if he thought we are still hanging onto beliefs so of date.

Please, explain to me how people that are gay can be compared to pickpockets (how dickensian!) or drug users?

See Maria this is exactly what i meant when i said it is all too complicated to be debated. No-ONE compared pickpockets or drug dealers to someone who is gay, this is just emotions getting in the way of what was posted.

What was said is that the MESSAGE is no more illegal than the other messages.

This guy (who wanted the banner) is a dinosaur sure, but he is not doing anything illegal is he?

I also agree with you about jesus weeping, in fact he would have been weeping since the time the church organised itself into a money/power making machine which flew in the face of just about everything he preached.

The scripture this anti homsexual banner is based on is of course old testament (what a surprise)

ANOTHER thing that is important here is that the banner did NOT mention gay, it mentioned 'homosexuality' A little thing I know but again important as the scripture in question only mentions homsexuality, not gay (which covers both sexes)

 

[OldWelshGuy]

How the f*ck is that helping them? telling them that they will burn in hell! It's too ridiculous...

Please don't swear at me.

Maria it appears to me that you are just firing in here for a fight without taking on board what is being said. I will try to explain to you how this is 'helping'.

Firstly understand that this is being posted NOT from my POV, but from the POV of the guy who wanted the banner made.

1. He believes that homsexuality is 'an abomination to the Lord' (apparently so is eating shellfish but that is another debate )
2. He believes that these people will go to hell
3. He believes these people will NOT go to hell if they repent ther 'sins'
4. he believes he is saving their immortal souls by getting them to see the error of their ways, repent and be saved from damnation.

THAT is how he is trying to help them, and I think you will find there would not be a court in the land that wouldn't accept that argument. So we have to accept that the INTENTION of this guy is NOT to hurt homsexuals, NOT to punish them, it IS to show them compassion and hopefully save their immortal souls.

So how can you punish a guy for that?

 

[maria102]

See Maria this is exactly what i meant when i said it is all too complicated to be debated. No-ONE compared pickpockets or drug dealers to someone who is gay, this is just emotions getting in the way of what was posted.

What was said is that the MESSAGE is no more illegal than the other messages.

This guy (who wanted the banner) is a dinosaur sure, but he is not doing anything illegal is he?

I also agree with you about jesus weeping, in fact he would have been weeping since the time the church organised itself into a money/power making machine which flew in the face of just about everything he preached.

The scripture this anti homsexual banner is based on is of course old testament (what a surprise)

ANOTHER thing that is important here is that the banner did NOT mention gay, it mentioned 'homosexuality' A little thing I know but again important as the scripture in question only mentions homsexuality, not gay (which covers both sexes)

I'm afraid they did make the comparison, as I used the quote facility.. I'm not going to go into the detail of your post, but fyi, Christians offend me a lot more than gays OR homosexuals.

 

[OldWelshGuy]

The sign is no different from one telling a drug user they will die if they continue using or that a pickpocket will go to hell for stealing. It is just the customers opinion and although that opinion is mean and rude and nasty it isn't illegal.

he was comparing the sign not the acts

 

[maria102]

Please don't swear at me.

Maria it appears to me that you are just firing in here for a fight without taking on board what is being said. I will try to explain to you how this is 'helping'.

Firstly understand that this is being posted NOT from my POV, but from the POV of the guy who wanted the banner made.

1. He believes that homsexuality is 'an abomination to the Lord' (apparently so is eating shellfish but that is another debate )
2. He believes that these people will go to hell
3. He believes these people will NOT go to hell if they repent ther 'sins'
4. he believes he is saving their immortal souls by getting them to see the error of their ways, repent and be saved from damnation.

THAT is how he is trying to help them, and I think you will find there would not be a court in the land that wouldn't accept that argument. So we have to accept that the INTENTION of this guy is NOT to hurt homsexuals, NOT to punish them, it IS to show them compassion and hopefully save their immortal souls.

So how can you punish a guy for that?

What an absolute load of rubbish! At least you can have a sensible conversation with gay people, they are just normal people at the end of the day, whereas anybody that believes that load of make believe is nuts. I really don't think for one minute that you typed that and actually had any faith in what you were saying.

Edit: you have mentioned that you are Christian, whereby you "believe" the same....

Further edit: sorry, I didn't mean to offend you ......I just really don't get christianity, but I didn't mean to be offensive

 

[OldWelshGuy]

I'm afraid they did make the comparison, as I used the quote facility.. I'm not going to go into the detail of your post, but fyi, Christians offend me a lot more than gays OR homosexuals.

Ah so that is the truth right there such a broad statement, such a shame. How about Christian gays then do they doubly offend you

I am sorry you feel such a dislike towards a particular faith, and wouldn't dream of enquiring why this is the case, I can assure you though that this guy is not the face of true christianity, just the same as the nutters who blow themselves and other innocent people up are not the true face of Islam. Just as the nutters who break into abortion clinics and shoot doctors are not representative of the pro life lobby.

In ALL walks of life there will be radicals, those who for one reason or another take things out of context and to the extreme doing more harm than good.

As I posted earlier (which you might not have read), it is wrong to force our beliefs on others, regardless of those beliefs.

 

[OldWelshGuy]

What an absolute load of rubbish! At least you can have a sensible conversation with gay people, they are just normal people at the end of the day, whereas anybody that believes that load of make believe is nuts. I really don't think for one minute that you typed that and actually had any faith in what you were saying.

Edit: you have mentioned that you are Christian, whereby you "believe" the same....

Further edit: sorry, I didn't mean to offend you ......I just really don't get christianity, but I didn't mean to be offensive

I am not prepared to discuss this with you in an open forum, you are obviously carrying anger that is making your posts illogical. I have CLEARLY stated I disagree, what more can i do?

 

[maria102]

I am not prepared to discuss this with you in an open forum, you are obviously carrying anger that is making your posts illogical. I have CLEARLY stated I disagree, what more can i do?

No, generally, I am always, illogical....

Hands up, I got a bit carried away, though I really don't think you have been that logical either.