please help me!

maria, I think you are confusing the message and the messenger here. You are taking what I am posting with regard what this bloke believes, with what I believe.

If you had read my earlier posts you might have seen that my ex business partner was gay, and i defended the rights of gays. I was just stating that the law in our country affords the same rights to this guy, regardless of how strongly we may find it abhorrent :(
 
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thanks for all your input, I really didn't know where I stood, im not a PC idiot

Something that came to me in the middle of the night, was 1) the guy keeps coming in getting the same signs done, which indicates The Police are confiscating them, as he preeches in Market Street, the busiest shopping street in Manchester one of the gayest cities in Europe, and 2) My 'beloved' company only make £10 per sign profit so as someone pointed out they value me as much as a stapler!! lol!

Most of all, I handled it the wrong way, they saw it as a power struggle, they've already had to stop using racist and homophobic language because of my greivance letter, and that was there no.1 pass time!
 
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thanks for all your input, I really didn't know where I stood, im not a PC idiot

Something that came to me in the middle of the night, was 1) the guy keeps coming in getting the same signs done, which indicates The Police are confiscating them, as he preeches in Market Street, the busiest shopping street in Manchester one of the gayest cities in Europe, and 2) My 'beloved' company only make £10 per sign profit so as someone pointed out they value me as much as a stapler!! lol!

Most of all, I handled it the wrong way, they saw it as a power struggle, they've already had to stop using racist and homophobic language because of my greivance letter, and that was there no.1 pass time!

I doubt it was the police, more likely to be simple vandalism. Paul, i TRULY feel for you, but you have to understand that what this man is doing is not illegal.

As far as your employment issue goes, they played you like a violin. They dug a big old bear trap, and you dived in head first, I am sorry to hear that they got to you.

In future, THINK, don't let emotions get in the way of your decision that is EXACTLY what your employers are trying to do. Take deep breath and think, 'what are they trying to achieve', then do whatever you need to do to protect YOU!

Above all, be calm, and be unemotional. If they give you this banner to make again, hold your head high, and tell them that you consider their actions to be persecution, as they know the content matter upsets you.

Understand that an employer has a duty of care to its employees, and asking a gay man to make abanner they KNOW he would find offensive, is no different to asking a straight man who has just lost his partner to lung cancer to make up a cigarette banner. OK if there is no other alternative, then so be it, BUT the employer 'should' really speak with the employee, and explain the predicament.

Unfortunately many men are homophobic (if they were comfortable with their sexuality then they should care about the orientation of others ;) ) When I went out for a night with my ex business partner (who was gay) our friends would say things like do you feel safe going to a gay bar? I would always laugh and say I felt TOTALLY safe, as I fancied women not men, so EVERYTHING in the club was out of bounds for me regardless of their sex.

Keep your chin up, but keep looking around for those bear poits, they WILL dig another one as sure as light follows dark each day.
 
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directmarketingadvice

Free Member
Aug 2, 2005
10,887
3,530
I agree with OWG on this.

I'm not a Christian, but according to my (admittedly ropy) understanding of the religion, the Bible is clearly against homosexuality.

And, if it says it's a sin that gets you sent to hell, then the guy's sign would just be a straightforward simplification of a message in the bible.

Which means, if the sign is hateful, that hatefulness comes from the Christian religion, rather than from the guy/sign.

(notice all the "if"s in the last few paragraphs. I'm not saying what is or isn't in the bible - or expressing personal beliefs - just laying down a logical set of conclusions)

So, if you want to censor the sign as being anti-gay, do you also want to insist the bible is re-printed without certain passages?

How far do we go?

As OWG pointed out, we live in a society that grants us freedoms.

One of those freedoms is the right to be openly gay... but there also has to be the freedom for homophobes to be uptight about that.

(that's "uptight", not "violent" or discriminating)

Just my 2p,

Steve

PS I'm sure I'll get hell for posting the following statement, but it's the truth:

If your boss is anti-gay, then what future do you have at that company? All the legislation in the world isn't going to make the guy accept you.

Office life isn't black and white, it's grey. So, it will be easy for him to overlook you for promotions and give you rubbish pay rises.

And, it will be easy for him to come up with reasons to justify that.

I know this isn't fair, or the way the world "should be", but it's the way the world is.

So, rather than wasting your career waiting for him to change, why not go and work somewhere where you'll be treated as an equal?
 
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Do you feel safe in a gay bar lol! Its like they think of the Blue Lagoon from the film Police Academy, they're going to walk in, music stops and a room full of mustached men with leather chaps launch themselves at them!! actually I know a few places like that, where even I don't feel 'safe'!!! lol!

You've restored my faith in christians, you 'lot' get a bad press ;-)

Anyway, thanks, you're right, no more jumping into holes for me! Actually about an hour ago I got a phone call from my new employers Xerox, it's good news, don't think i'll have any of these sorts of problems there some how!!!
 
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maria102

Free Member
Oct 25, 2005
3,614
465
Manchester
You may have quoted the text but you obviously didn't understand the words. I specifically stated that sign A is no more illegal than sign B or C. I made absolutely no comparison betweens homosexuals and pickpockets or drug users.

I understood perfectly, why use these are comparisons? all negative examples.
 
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obscure

Free Member
Jan 18, 2008
3,370
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The world
I understood perfectly,
No you obviously didn't....
why use these are comparisons? all negative examples.
....because I made no negative comparisons. I simply compared the legality of three different signs to each other.

Others here were able to understand what I wrote. You it seems can not even when your mistake is pointed out to you.
 
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maria102

Free Member
Oct 25, 2005
3,614
465
Manchester
No you obviously didn't....

....because I made no negative comparisons. I simply compared the legality of three different signs to each other.

Others here were able to understand what I wrote. You it seems can not even when your mistake is pointed out to you.

You have not pointed out anything to me, you have just jumped on the bandwagon of oldwelshguy, to who I admitted getting carried away with and apologised to.
 
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Sorry oldwelshguy, but you're wrong, it was The Police and not 'simple vandilism'.

I am completely suspicious of 'moderate' christians, they play the "Im gay friendly card" and then make comparisons of homosexuals with thieves and prostitutes, and say things like "they can't help who they are" If 'God' asked me "would you like to be cured" i'd tell him to stick it... im creative, chatty, colourful and fabulous darling!. And just because your business partner was gay and you went to a gay club, so what?

and come to think of it, now i've got a stronger head on, it's not his right at all. If I were to hold up a sign saying "Christians stop brainwashing children in faith schools" what would the reaction be?

Why don't christians hold up signs like "polluters stop destroying the plant, polluters go to hell" hmmmm... i'll tell you why, because christianity is obsessed with sex, they think of gays... sex!

The less you have, the more you think about it.

And I don't think Jesus would condone holding up banners and shouting at people who are just going about there normal lives, attacking a certain group of people for who they are.

As my boss said about the validility of the signs in question... "it's in The Bible" yeah it is, in 6 point roman text in a big fat book that really only religious people read, it's hardly the same as a sign thats got 200 point bold text held up 7 feet high in the busiest street in Manchester, where mainly non-religious people walk!
 
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I am completely suspicious of 'moderate' christians, they play the "Im gay friendly card" and then make comparisons of homosexuals with thieves and prostitutes, and say things like "they can't help who they are" If 'God' asked me "would you like to be cured"

Who's being a bit intolerant now? Perhaps I should say I am completely suspicious of gays because I think they always want my body? Surely thats the same thing?

and come to think of it, now i've got a stronger head on, it's not his right at all. If I were to hold up a sign saying "Christians stop brainwashing children in faith schools" what would the reaction be?

Of course it's still his right!!! And I would would defend the rights of anyone who wanted to hold a banner saying "Christians stop brainwashing children in faith schools". I might not agree with it but who am I to dictate what people can and can't say?
 
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just because someone is stupid, doesn't make them bad :D

errr... how about I make a sign that reads "welsh people go home, you're not welcome in England"

Im stupid, yeah, but as you quoted... im not bad???! errr... yeah I would be, because, simple really mate, I could make any passing welsh people, who as i've said earlier, are mearly having a nice day shopping... feel rubbish/affect their mood for no reason/feel angry... ALL NEGATIVE!

Christianity IS NEGATIVE, and that's where it's going wrong, it's like opening up a nightclub and saying "if you don't do as I say you aint getting in so nurnurnurnurnur"
 
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errr... how about I make a sign that reads "welsh people go home, you're not welcome in England"

Im stupid, yeah, but as you quoted... im not bad???! errr... yeah I would be, because, simple really mate, I could make any passing welsh people, who as i've said earlier, are mearly having a nice day shopping... feel rubbish/affect their mood for no reason/feel angry... ALL NEGATIVE!

Christianity IS NEGATIVE, and that's where it's going wrong, it's like opening up a nightclub and saying "if you don't do as I say you aint getting in so nurnurnurnurnur"

Paul, you are now ranting for some reason, and attacking me personally, why is this? Why the sudden change of heart? You have gone from sensible to all out picking a fight and throwing personal and generic insults around?

PLEASE stop and read what you are posting it is not at all logical, it is VERY emotional, and potentially libelous, racist, and illegal under the very laws that were quoted earlier to protect you.

I have been nothing but polite to you, I have never insulted you, I have done nothing other than try to help you.


Can't you see the IRONY that you have made this post because you disagreed with this man broadcasting his personal thoughts, then you come onto a forum and do EXACTLY the same thing as him, only this time you are personally attacking individuals like myself that have done nothing but try to help you. :(

Two wrongs don't make a right, do yourself a favour and put the keyboard down
 
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errr... how about I make a sign that reads "welsh people go home, you're not welcome in England"

Im stupid, yeah, but as you quoted... im not bad???! errr... yeah I would be, because, simple really mate, I could make any passing welsh people, who as i've said earlier, are mearly having a nice day shopping... feel rubbish/affect their mood for no reason/feel angry... ALL NEGATIVE!

Christianity IS NEGATIVE, and that's where it's going wrong, it's like opening up a nightclub and saying "if you don't do as I say you aint getting in so nurnurnurnurnur"

That would be illegal under our race laws so is hardly a good comparison.
 
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Don't be ridiculous, I was being hypothetical.

Now... if I held a sign saying that.... I would be racist! get it?

And why this change of heart...

Because when I originally posted "please help me" I was feeling vulnerable, not just because of 'the signs' in question, but because I work in an environment where the wrongs of homosexuality are a daily topic of conversation. That same night came the depression, up until 1:30am thinking about it, and then today the anger... Just a little insight into what might happen to some poor child who realises like I did at an early age that I was different, upon reading this idiots signs... might go through this process.

Sorry there was nothing meant personally against you, do you get what Im saying?

Do you realise suicide in gay youth is much higher than heterosexuals the same age and how this sign might contribute to this?


on my own, the only gay in the village, my attacked
 
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Don't be ridiculous, I was being hypothetical.

Now... if I held a sign saying that.... I would be racist! get it?

And why this change of heart...

Because when I originally posted "please help me" I was feeling vulnerable, not just because of 'the signs' in question, but because I work in an environment where the wrongs of homosexuality are a daily topic of conversation. That same night came the depression, up until 1:30am thinking about it, and then today the anger... Just a little insight into what might happen to some poor child who realises like I did at an early age that I was different, upon reading this idiots signs... might go through this process.

Sorry there was nothing meant personally against you, do you get what Im saying?

Do you realise suicide in gay youth is much higher than heterosexuals the same age and how this sign might contribute to this?

on my own, the only gay in the village, my attacked

One of us is being ridiculous and it isn't me. I understand you are angry, you are angry at this man so you come here and shout at those who have tried to help you. As I said, you are being illogical, find this man and speak to him, you know where he goes, go there and do it, take some of your friends, and ask him why he feels he has the right to tell you what to do? Ask him what his motivation is, tell him how much he is upsetting you.

I DO get what you are saying.

Do I realise the problems with suicide, indeed I do, I am a trained councillor, I work with kids all the time, I coach kids rugby, I deal with their problems on a daily basis. In my area in the last 12 months 26 people have hanged themselves including my friends daughter less than 3 months ago.

Life is hard for sure, and there is a time to put your arm around someone and hug them, and a time to look them in the eye and say 'stop and think what you are saying'. Allowing your depression to affect you like this is not good. Go to the doctors, get some chemical help and deal with it, because if you don't get hold of it soon, it will destroy you.

I would tell them the same as I tell you
 
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Thanks, and sorry for my rant, as I said in my private message to you, I have been punched, kicked, spat at, chased, all in the name of homophobia, not helped by religious people banging this anti-gay drum.

And I see no need to argue with this religious person as you suggest, there is no point, he won't change his mind as no rational person would do what he does.

THE END.

I have a feeling that this gay rights vs religious rights debate will rage on through the media etc, adoption, marriage errr civil ceremonies, I for one will try and be more level headed...

without the use of chemicals! I think once out of this homophobic environment i'll be dandy
 
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M

Mattonella Tile Studio

I've genuinely lost the reasoning on some of this thread.

I think we're all agreed that you can't have a sign saying 'welsh go home' as it would be racist.

But the only argument I've heard saying 'homosexuals, repent or go to hell' is allowed is because the christian person is entitled to their opinion and freedom of expression.

Therefore, why isn't the hypothetical racist entitled to their opinion using the same logic?
 
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I've genuinely lost the reasoning on some of this thread.

I think we're all agreed that you can't have a sign saying 'welsh go home' as it would be racist.

But the only argument I've heard saying 'homosexuals, repent or go to hell' is allowed is because the christian person is entitled to their opinion and freedom of expression.

Therefore, why isn't the hypothetical racist entitled to their opinion using the same logic?

I know this is mad, but the difference is that little word.

'Homosexuals go home' would be equally as illegal.
The difference is that the guy is stating his religious beliefs in a passge taken from the bible. Just the same as the salvation army can have a banner saying 'the wages of sin is death' (no heaven for you lot :D ) or 'repent all you sinners' (or go to hell). Meat is Murder?

There is a fine line, BUT if the mans actions were likelt to cause a public order offence, then he can be moved on.
 
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Nothing would make me more happy than to meet everyone who has posted on this thread in the pub to enjoy a few pints and a good old fashioned debate:)

Yeahy! Hollywood Showbar anyone?

On a serious note, i'd like to thank... 'Mattonella Tile Studio' for keeping (his/her!) rational head on when others had lost theres.... 'Dawg' for (his/her!) humorous paper scissor remark which had me in stitches!... my personal fave 'maria102' for keeping it real, big hugs sister!... 'MikeD08' for realising he got his ass kicked! and backing out gracefully ;-)... 'blackandwhite1986' the wisest of them all....

oh and last but not least.... 'OldWelshGuy' less of the old tho hey! thats ageist!
 
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M

Mattonella Tile Studio

I know this is mad, but the difference is that little word.

'Homosexuals go home' would be equally as illegal.
The difference is that the guy is stating his religious beliefs in a passge taken from the bible. Just the same as the salvation army can have a banner saying 'the wages of sin is death' (no heaven for you lot :D ) or 'repent all you sinners' (or go to hell). Meat is Murder?

There is a fine line, BUT if the mans actions were likelt to cause a public order offence, then he can be moved on.

Ah, ok, I see what you're saying.
 
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1

1st-to-find

Hi, I am a Bi lady. I think you will need to be more understanding of other people's opinion. After all, you are at work and need to remain professional at all times. If you see this person in the street after work, then that's a different matter, say what you like to him, but you probably will get the sack if you say it at work
 
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Hi, I am a Bi lady. I think you will need to be more understanding of other people's opinion. After all, you are at work and need to remain professional at all times. If you see this person in the street after work, then that's a different matter, say what you like to him, but you probably will get the sack if you say it at work


Good point, but as he said, he has no intention of speaking to him :(
 
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