Personal Text Messages to a colleague - Gross Dismissal?

[Anonymous1978]

I have been personal friends with a more junior colleague. We went to each other's weddings and she often referred to it being lovely we were friends not colleagues. We would text each other on an evening. She has now left employment and given me as reason for leaving. She found my text messages to be too intense and cited I would text her ten times a night. She is in ill health and she has claimed it is making her ill as she is not getting the rest she needs on a night. Whilst she has not formally complained the company has viewed this behaviour as gross dismissal. Naturally I am devastated as I had no idea my messages were unwelcome as he regularly replied to them. Would this be a genuine gross dismissal claim?

 

[chalkie99]

she often referred to it being lovely I am devastated as I had no idea my messages were unwelcome as he regularly replied to them.

Doesn't make sense -

 

[WaveJumper]

Maybe just a typo - however was you using a company mobile phone, if so what is the company policy on their use regarding personal calls etc

 

[Anonymous1978]

Maybe just a typo - however was you using a company mobile phone, if so what is the company policy on their use regarding personal calls etc

I used my personal phone. I am really professional and never use my work phone for private matters

 

[Anonymous1978]

Doesn't make sense -

Sorry meant to change

It is a typo

 

[NickGrogan]

Gross misconduct? Seems reasonable to me.

They work for you all day, and you're texting them more than 10 times per night too. Of course, they replied, if not you can make their life difficult all day or fire them.

Are you male? I'd expect more problems from this if you are.

 

[Anonymous1978]

Gross misconduct? Seems reasonable to me.

They work for you all day, and you're texting them more than 10 times per night too. Of course, they replied, if not you can make their life difficult all day or fire them.

Are you male? I'd expect more problems from this if you are.

I did not text ten times a night. This is what I have been accused of. I can evidence this by showing the texts. I am not this person's manager. I am not even a manager. Just a more senior person. I am not male, so please do not be rude. I am genuinely distressed. This member of staff instigated messages to me also. It worked both ways. Perhaps I did it a bit more than her towards the end but genuinely did not know the texts were unwelcome. Indeed I cared so much for her health I took a morning off work to take her to a hospital appointment. I really genuinely cared for her well being.

 

[WaveJumper]

How has this fact come to light regarding the company knowing you have been texting each other, I know you say your 'friend' has not made a formal compliant so how have they become aware.

 

[Anonymous1978]

How has this fact come to light regarding the company knowing you have been texting each other, I know you say your 'friend' has not made a formal compliant so how have they become aware.

The member of staff who has accused me left and mentioned it as a reason for leaving the company. I have then received a settlement agreement saying my behaviour has had an impact on a member of staff's health. If I do not sign the agreement I am likely to be found guilty of gross dismissal. They have not told me any of the details above. I only know the details as somebody has leaked it to me privately. Apparently the accuser did not actually make a formal complaint and just made a comment that it was a factor as to why she is leaving the company. It is the company who have decided to use it as gross dismissal.

 

[Mr D]

When I want to rest I make sure the phone isn't going to buzz or ring. Works wonderfully.

However the gross dismissal - the company has had a complaint and investigated?

 

[Anonymous1978]

When I want to rest I make sure the phone isn't going to buzz or ring. Works wonderfully.

However the gross dismissal - the company has had a complaint and investigated?

Exactly. I am so hurt. I feel betrayed by a friend I dearly loved. I even offered to give her my entire life savings to help fund private medical treatment to help her health.

The company have not even investigated the matter. They are pushing me to sign a settlement agreement because the alternative is they will investigate the so called allegation and I am likely to be sacked. It feels like blackmail

 

[WaveJumper]

More questions;
Have you been interviewed by HR
Have you put your side of the story has an investigation taken place
Why are they asking you to sign a settlement agreement
How long have you worked for these people

 

[Mr D]

Exactly. I am so hurt. I feel betrayed by a friend I dearly loved. I even offered to give her my entire life savings to help fund private medical treatment to help her health.

The company have not even investigated the matter. They are pushing me to sign a settlement agreement because the alternative is they will investigate the so called allegation and I am likely to be sacked. It feels like blackmail

Ummm…. I'm no professional (some may pop along later or be already reading) but an investigation would be a good thing for you?

 

[Anonymous1978]

More questions;
Have you been interviewed by HR
Have you put your side of the story has an investigation taken place
Why are they asking you to sign a settlement agreement
How long have you worked for these people

I have not been interviewed by HR. No investigation has taken place. I am not quite sure why they want a settlement agreement. I have been bullied for 2 years by my line manager and perhaps they are trying to avoid a constructive dismissal claim. It could be because the firm is having financial difficulties and I am an expensive employee. I have no idea in truth.

I have worked there for 8 and a half years.

 

[Anonymous1978]

Ummm…. I'm no professional (some may pop along later or be already reading) but an investigation would be a good thing for you?

I thought that too but what they are saying is I am likely to be sacked. As I have a professional job, I will not get a licence to do my job if I am every dismissed for gross misconduct. They are playing a cruel game with my life. They are frightening me and it is working.

 

[WaveJumper]

There must be a lot more to this story than you think, when talking settlement agreements

Ok just seen you post ............. In my experience such as it is if a company is going down this route yes they are trying to to avoid a long winded dismissal process for their own reasons as you have indicated it does not sound like and reading between the lines you have all been getting on.

Yes you could try to fight this but do you really want to stay where clearly things are not that great. Yes they are putting a gun to your head and basically saying if you don't agree to this way out, things are going to be made very un-comfortable for you.

Due to length of service have they offered a settlement figure, several months pay etc, also they should be telling you to seek legal advice on the settlement document and I think but sure this will be confirmed by someone with more knowledge in these matters they should be paying for the legal advice.

 

[NickGrogan]

I can evidence this by showing the texts.

You kept all the messages?

I really genuinely cared for her well being.

Apparently the relationship was a bit onesided.

I am likely to be found guilty

If you're innocent, you won't be found guilty. If they find you guilty anyway you have a strong claim for unfair dismissal and compensation. Win, win.

I feel betrayed by a friend I dearly loved. I even offered to give her my entire life savings to help fund private medical treatment to help her health.

A bit over the top, is this normal behaviour?

As I have a professional job, I will not get a licence to do my job if I am every dismissed for gross misconduct.

Which increases the risk to the employer of a false dismissal.

Speak to an HR professional, and tell them everything.

 

[Mr D]

A bit over the top, is this normal behaviour?

While uncommon its not unknown.
Need to be a good friend I suspect to warrant that. But as you say, relationship could be one sided.

 

[paulears]

As the so called offence is text based, then make sure you have a backup of all the evidence. in these cases, context is everything. I'v e re-read it and you do seem very confused and having difficulty in explaining it properly - this you need to sort out. perhaps a timeline will help. Start by copying the texts with the times to a spreadsheet, then next to each one, write a note explaining what each one actually means. This will help you get it straight.

I'm no expert (apart from Judge Judy and Judge Rinder) but they lotion to both sides and go with the version that makes more sense, and has evidence to support it.

At a distance - it does strike me that two things could have happened here. two people were friends and supportive, but at some point the relationship changed for one of them, and this may have been the trigger point. You know, one of those friendships in the movies where one party suddenly says 'I love you", or kisses the other and only at that point does it suddenly crash and burn when one party got the wrong 'clues' and 'hints'.

I'm a little unsure of the link to work. When work colleague begin a relationship, this is nothing to do with their employer if work is not affected. If the discourse changes to unwanted conversations, that could be considered a problem, then at that point work gets interested once a complaint is made. Would your conversations from that point, when viewed from the perspective that they were unwanted and not requested be too much? Perhaps they were. Maybe you didn't pick up on the fact the responses indicated they weren't appreciated, and just carried on? Maybe you sent a message, didn't get an immediate response and asked again - this can be quite threatening and pile on the pressure. We don't know. If the arbiter sides with you, your job is safe - you did not act in a way that constitutes gross misconduct. if the arbiter decides you did essentially harass them (even unintentionally) then you're guilty.

 

[MBE2017]

Not as simple as it sounds. A company can make almost any allegation, and whilst it might be possible to overturn and even get a payout, it is far from guaranteed.

The worker in the meantime has the worry of loss of income, potentially their career threatened for years to come, with no certainty of outcome. Unusually it is more a case of proving your innocence when such allegations are made.

 

[BeauLacey]

As has been said with any settlement agreement they should also pay for your legal advice (up to a point) - I've been party to a lot of SA's and they tends to range from £250-£350 + VAT depending on the seniority/package offered.

Was the amount offered comparable to redundancy?
That should be your minimum starting point IMHO
Use the calculator on the gov site. It won't et me provide the link but search Gov & Redundancy calculator.
You may win more at tribunal but it will be a lot of grief. Your legal advisor may be able to negotiate more.

I'd fight it - it's not gross miss conduct. But as you say you are a professional and don't want your reputation tarnished (even if it is unfair). Could you find a similar job locally. Sometimes its easier to take the money and run.

Have you spoken to the ex "friend"? I'm not sure if its wise to or not, just curious

 

[WaveJumper]

I have seen a lot of SA’s over my time and I personally think this story is one of the company using this current situation to part ways with the OP

It sounds like the OP has been having long term issues with her line manager, he and the company now see this as a way to resolve the situation (I am not saying it’s right but unfortunately this happens) Hard I know but the OP should not take it personally, not easy under the circumstances but you have to think about your future, is it really going to be with this company.

The settlement process will be offered, I would suggest the scenario is if you don’t plan and go down that route and negotiate a fair out come for yourself you are going to be left fighting a disciplinary / grievance. You will spend a lot of time and heartache defending this, and may win but I am sure the company will keep pressure on you, performance reviews, work not up to standard etc. in the end making your time at work unbearable.

As I said this is a hard juncture to find yourself in, my advice think hard which way you want to go talk to a solicitor who specialises in this sort of thing there’s plenty on the internet, you can call and get some initial advice.

In the settlement process the end result would ideally be you get a pay out both parties agree with help of legal advice sign a paper agreeing not to divulge any of the details.

Of course there is one last thought, depending on the size of the company and people involved, would an HR department back you, could you be moved.

You have to ask yourself do I want a fight and get compensation from a possible wrongful dismissal and have this on my record or negotiate an SA and get out on your terms.

I know your first thoughts are this is all unfair and on the face of it yes it does seem so, but ask yourself deep down are you really happy there and is there really a future.

These are my thoughts on the subject; please get some proper legal advice

 

[Employment Law Clinic]

I would struggle to see how this conduct could be labelled “gross misconduct” under any application of any disciplinary procedures; the policies (which we haven’t seen) could even go so far as to state that “staff must not have any relationships or communications of any nature outside the workplace”, and the employer would still struggle greatly.

There is a very remote possibility that the actions amount to serious misconduct, but even then it’s very difficult to perceive what most peculiar disciplinary policies would need to be in place to result in this.


The suggestion that the alternative to a settlement agreement is a ”finding of gross misconduct” infers that the necessary formalities – for disciplinary action, and the settlement agreement – are seriously flawed, and despite the typical nature of discussions towards settlement agreements – confidential, off-record, not admissible in subsequent tribunal proceedings – I would suggest that rule would be set-aside, at least to hear submissions that make the above assertions –that the findings of gross misconduct were reached before any formal process.


(That said, the OP would need to be cautious to the possibility that a sensible employer would, at this stage, merely be suggesting that they could feasibly make a finding of gross misconduct, not that they definitely would.)



To clarify the point about costs towards a settlement agreement, there is absolutely no legal obligation to pay for this. It’s very common practice – virtually always – but the legal requirement is only that the employee confirms they received appropriate legal advice.

The amount that an employer will typically pay will vary, and is negotiable - £250-£500 is typical, although it could be more or less; an employer could suggest the employee get free advice from a trade union or citizens advice, refuse to pay anything.


It sounds like an ignorant manager, overstating their authority without having properly consulted HR, but it could be more than that, in which case the OP should be fine if they simply document everything that is said accurately - assuming what is posted is accurate, not an interpretation.



Karl Limpert

 

[NickGrogan]

I would struggle to see how this conduct could be labelled “gross misconduct” under any application of any disciplinary procedures;

Interesting.

Do you think that the employee who quit would have a valid claim for constructive dismissal if they felt that the text messages were bullying and/or the cause of the stress/ill health?

Assuming they did, wouldn't causing the constructive dismissal be gross misconduct?

 

[Employment Law Clinic]

Interesting.

Do you think that the employee who quit would have a valid claim for constructive dismissal if they felt that the text messages were bullying and/or the cause of the stress/ill health?

Assuming they did, wouldn't causing the constructive dismissal be gross misconduct?

No, I don't think the employee who quit could possibly have a claim for constructive dismissal after deciding that their private relationship with a work-colleague was suddenly too intense for them.

To be the cause of constructive dismissal (which this could never conceivably be - the threshold is far higher than getting a few text messages from a colleague, once a friend, and saying nothing about it to anyone until they quit) could possibly be serious misconduct, but all parties would have been warned about this before it got so far! Not something that's happened in this case.


Karl Limpert

 

[adam thompson1981]

More questions;
Have you been interviewed by HR
Have you put your side of the story has an investigation taken place
Why are they asking you to sign a settlement agreement
How long have you worked for these people

You offered to give here your entire life savings?

That does sound a bit stalker/weirdo thing to offer

Maybe she was intimidated by the strength of your feeling towards her? Sounds over bearing.

I reckon you're male, that's the type of thing men do they become overbearing and come across as creepy to women.

Instead of thinking "I am innocent" maybe you should take it on board and look at how your actions could have come off as creepy/weird/overbearing etc and try to address this character flaw.

Women don't like this type of attention btw, it's a compete turn off. You should have let her instigate text messages rather than hounding her

 

[Jasondb]

I would hazard a guess that the worker that has left due to health or stress problems is considering legal action and the company do not want many of their staff involved in any legal actions so if they can remove any that would be to their advantage. As said by others be careful what you sign and if pushed seek legal advice. Of course you could look for another job.

 

[ecommerce84]

@adam thompson1981, the original poster has already stated they are female.

Granted we don’t know how ill OP’s friend is but assuming it’s life threatening or life changing I don’t think offering to hand over your savings to potentially save someone’s life is that weird.

I can think of plenty of people I would do that for, some of them are former colleagues I’ve only met through work. Some of them are female and I happen to be male.

My thinking is that I can always replace that money but I could never replace that person.

Nothing that the OP says strikes me as cause for gross dismissal. It’s nothing more than a personal dispute between 2 people who happened to be colleagues.

How was the OP to know she was being over bearing if she was not only not told, but her colleague was actively participating in texting her etc.

My advice to you OP would be to try and agree a decent settlement offer and get yourself out of there, this isn’t a company I would wish to continue working for.

 

[Chris Ashdown]

I find it strange that no meeting has been held to discuss the problem, you would expect some sort of preliminary meeting to discus if it is a disciplinary act or not

Maybe we have not heard the full story

 

[Ian J]

Maybe we have not heard the full story

My thoughts too.

They both attended each other's weddings so I wonder what their husbands make of all this

 

[Mr D]

My thoughts too.

They both attended each other's weddings so I wonder what their husbands make of all this

Dispute between females.
Husbands go out for a beer.