Pending small court claim, customer perspective

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LeviL97

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I'm currently going through the motions of taking a landscaper to small claims court RE 'The Supply of Goods and Services Act 1982 (as amended) and also 'The Consumer Rights Act 2015'
I appreciate this forum is mainly from the perspective of the business owner, hence why I ask this question, I'm looking for general feedback on my position and would like to know if it would be suitable to ask here? If so I will post further details and look forward to your feedback, however, if not, that's perfectly fine and post can be removed.
Thanks in advance.
 
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A few minor points - what is the value of the claim? Presumably under £10,000 (if a small claim).
What stage is it at? People often win on the basis of who has the best proof/paperwork eg if the other landscapers agree the decking was dreadful then make sure you have evidence from them.

Also submit your documents etc when required by the court and follow the timescales set by the court.

Make sure the court has all the papers in advance in order, following any rules set out by the court for that and bring an additional copy on the day of the hearing (assuming it is in person) in case they have not reached the judge (that is very common).

Consider making an offer to the other party on a without prejudice basis to try to settle it in...

LeviL97

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It's difficult to comment without detail.

However, Where small claims is involved I'd being inclined to avoid 'getting legal' wirh Acts and Sections & focus on the practicalities.

You paid for something. It didn't work

What was reasonable to expect?
What was the outcome etc?
Thanks for the reply.
We had a landscaper come in to complete a number of jobs, a complete garden transformation.
We paid for all of the materials up front, with the labour to be paid upon signing off on the job, unfortunately we encountered issue after issue with regards to the standard of the work and eventually we terminated the contract early due to loss of faith based on the standard of work demonstrated up until that point, I didn't let him attempt to rectify it at this time, as with problem after problem, I thought we were wasting each others time. At this point the work had been completed, however, we had to rip a lot of it out and get in an alternative contractor to do the work again, henceforth the original contractor was never paid for his labour. We then had to replace a reasonable amount of the materials and pay an alternate contractor to do the job properly. In addition to that, some of the materials, provided by the original contractor, have weathered terribly in the year since they were implemented, not a fault of the original contractor himself, however, within his scope of supply. I wrote some letters to him, following the legal procedures that are in place (notification letter, letter before action) Within these letters I requested that he pay for the rectification costs that we had to undertake due to his work not being to a good enough standard and that he also contact his supplier with regards to the faulty goods he supplied. We've since reached no reasonable agreement as he's not willing to co-operate, leaving me to either let this lie, seek action via small claims court or using an alternate dispute resolution.
 
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fisicx

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You might struggle as you didn’t give them the opportunity to rectify the issues. Not paying for work completed may go against you as well.
 
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UKSBD

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    Thanks for the reply.
    We had a landscaper come in to complete a number of jobs, a complete garden transformation.
    We paid for all of the materials up front, with the labour to be paid upon signing off on the job, unfortunately we encountered issue after issue with regards to the standard of the work and eventually we terminated the contract early due to loss of faith based on the standard of work demonstrated up until that point, I didn't let him attempt to rectify it at this time, as with problem after problem, I thought we were wasting each others time. At this point the work had been completed, however, we had to rip a lot of it out and get in an alternative contractor to do the work again, henceforth the original contractor was never paid for his labour. We then had to replace a reasonable amount of the materials and pay an alternate contractor to do the job properly. In addition to that, some of the materials, provided by the original contractor, have weathered terribly in the year since they were implemented, not a fault of the original contractor himself, however, within his scope of supply. I wrote some letters to him, following the legal procedures that are in place (notification letter, letter before action) Within these letters I requested that he pay for the rectification costs that we had to undertake due to his work not being to a good enough standard and that he also contact his supplier with regards to the faulty goods he supplied. We've since reached no reasonable agreement as he's not willing to co-operate, leaving me to either let this lie, seek action via small claims court or using an alternate dispute resolution.

    Not related to the question but, when making further long posts, break them in to paragraphs.

    This makes the post far easier to read and you will have more chance of people reading it fully.

    People tend to skip posts that are just large blocks of text.
     
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    paulears

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    This will be a classic Judge Judy, won't it!

    What will happen will be he tells his story based on his viewpoint - the goods were fine and paid for implying acceptance by the purchaser with no obvious issues with quality. He will no doubt say you were unreasonable or not cooperative. You will have the opinion that his work was defective and substandard, and perhaps you'll even use the completed work from contractor 2 to place the substandard claim into focus in a way a third party can form an opinion. With two radically different viewpoints you need an arbitrator.

    Will your evidence, or his be seen as solid, or will it be a on the basis of probability? Who puts the most likely compelling case? Could those materials have been identified as substandard visually? If so, payment tends to wipe out that part of the claim. If the problems were invisible - maybe internally rotted timber, for example, the court could side with you. You might end up with a bit of both. As communications has broken down self-arbitration will be very difficult or impossible, so both sides will have to put their faith in the court process.

    It's not really right or wrong, it's down to the evidence both sides have shifting the decision from him to you. They'll ask you what he did that made you decide to cancel the contract. Will it convince a third independent party? Is it an opinion or fact? Could he have reasonably known the products would weather badly - and what exactly constitutes 'weathering'. Some timber changes colour, some leaks sap and others go unusual colours, wanted or unwanted. If you have part of an email where you asked if the timber will go silver and the response is no - this wood will remain the same colour, then that's good for you. No doubt he will claim your payment for the supplies is an indication of satisfaction, and unforeseen issues are not his fault?

    This is what makes me label it a Judge Judy case. Three people's opinions and just one counts, hers. You changed his faulty work. You will have to explain what exactly got changed. Work you had done that is outside of what was originally requested may also not be allowable. Did you give him the option to put it right? Did he refuse and say why? This will all come up in the court. He might maintain he did exactly what you asked for and you changed your mind? Best of luck with it, but unless he simply rolls over, and it sounds like he feels you were the customer from hell, then two people will have to simply let a third decide. I'd suggest you look hard at the evidence you have, and maybe try it on somebody you know who will be willing to give and impartial opinion? If this person struggles, so will the court.
     
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    LeviL97

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    You might struggle as you didn’t give them the opportunity to rectify the issues. Not paying for work completed may go against you as well.
    When consulting citizens advice, they advised me that if I can prove a poor standard of work has been demonstrated throughout, then you don't have to give them the option to rectify the work, I have photo's/video's and verbal accounts of those that would testify to the recurring poor examples of work.
     
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    LeviL97

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    This will be a classic Judge Judy, won't it!

    What will happen will be he tells his story based on his viewpoint - the goods were fine and paid for implying acceptance by the purchaser with no obvious issues with quality. He will no doubt say you were unreasonable or not cooperative. You will have the opinion that his work was defective and substandard, and perhaps you'll even use the completed work from contractor 2 to place the substandard claim into focus in a way a third party can form an opinion. With two radically different viewpoints you need an arbitrator.

    Will your evidence, or his be seen as solid, or will it be a on the basis of probability? Who puts the most likely compelling case? Could those materials have been identified as substandard visually? If so, payment tends to wipe out that part of the claim. If the problems were invisible - maybe internally rotted timber, for example, the court could side with you. You might end up with a bit of both. As communications has broken down self-arbitration will be very difficult or impossible, so both sides will have to put their faith in the court process.

    It's not really right or wrong, it's down to the evidence both sides have shifting the decision from him to you. They'll ask you what he did that made you decide to cancel the contract. Will it convince a third independent party? Is it an opinion or fact? Could he have reasonably known the products would weather badly - and what exactly constitutes 'weathering'. Some timber changes colour, some leaks sap and others go unusual colours, wanted or unwanted. If you have part of an email where you asked if the timber will go silver and the response is no - this wood will remain the same colour, then that's good for you. No doubt he will claim your payment for the supplies is an indication of satisfaction, and unforeseen issues are not his fault?

    This is what makes me label it a Judge Judy case. Three people's opinions and just one counts, hers. You changed his faulty work. You will have to explain what exactly got changed. Work you had done that is outside of what was originally requested may also not be allowable. Did you give him the option to put it right? Did he refuse and say why? This will all come up in the court. He might maintain he did exactly what you asked for and you changed your mind? Best of luck with it, but unless he simply rolls over, and it sounds like he feels you were the customer from hell, then two people will have to simply let a third decide. I'd suggest you look hard at the evidence you have, and maybe try it on somebody you know who will be willing to give and impartial opinion? If this person struggles, so will the court.
    Thanks for all of the above.
    Its taken careful consideration for us to get this far, I would normally let something like this lie, however, based on the financial impact its had on us, we're finding it tough to take when we really aren't in the wrong.
    Some of the work is still in the same state it was in when the original contractor left, this in particular is some composite decking, which is also the same part that we are currently not happy with the 'weathering' of. Its visibly changed colour and is advertised as 'UV protected' etc, its the reason we went with that and not timber decking, we have photographs of its appearance during installation and now 1 year later, obviously in agreement that this isn't his fault, but his responsibility to resolve.
    Furthermore, we signed off on the decking at the time, since then we've had multiple contractors within the industry come and look at it and they all agree that the work is not to standard, as-well as the fact that the materials are defective.
    Regarding the rest of the work that we had rectified by a superseding contractor, we have lots of photo's and video's of the work in the final state that it was in when he was taken off the job, and in parallel, photos and videos of the work now in the state that we are happy with.
    In addition to all of this, further evidence that could help our case, we had skips dropped directly on our drive (no pallets or runners) without consulting us, these have damaged the driveway, furthermore, he damaged some exterior to our property and on more than one occasion, when entrusted with a key whilst we were at work, failed to lock the property when leaving. All of that could be considered hearsay, however, we have conversations with him that we have screenshots of to back that up.
    My view of all of it is that, he's out of pocket RE not being paid labour and this is solely his fault, I'm out of his pocket due to having to purchase materials twice and that's also his fault.
     
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    LeviL97

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    I'm not certain that advice is that solid, is it? Surely if you identify a fault, then they should be allowed to fix it, or at least enter into dialogue. I'd be worried a judge might also think this very strange? n' comment on the law of course, I'm no expert.
    This was my original thought also, based on the idea I refused to let him back to do the work, I thought that ended any conversation I could begin with the legal system. However, citizens advice advised me differently and advised that according to 'The Supply of Goods and Services Act 1982 (as amended)' that we were able to terminate a contract due to 'lost faith' if you can prove the goods/services were not that of a sufficient/expected standard.
     
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    fisicx

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    Which brings us right back to the post from @paulears: it’s your word against theirs. The arbitrator will only look at the facts and decide if was unfair of you to withhold payment and not allow the contractor to make the necessary rectifications.

    Your point about the decking colour has nothing to do with the contractor. You chose the material so your complaint is with the manufacturer. Each of your points will be assessed in the same way.
     
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    paulears

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    You also mentioned you felt the materials issue was his fault, but this needs you to show that he knew the materials were defective? If they failed in use, and it was unforeseen, then will not the supplier then also need to be brought into the proceedings. You can't fault him for not being a fortune teller? If he discovered some timber was rotten, or poorly treated but ignored it, then it's his fault? This is such a mess that any third party is going to struggle. In these cases, the consumer probably ends up worse off. It will come down to how good everyone's evidence is.
     
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    LeviL97

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    Which brings us right back to the post from @paulears: it’s your word against theirs. The arbitrator will only look at the facts and decide if was unfair of you to withhold payment and not allow the contractor to make the necessary rectifications.

    Your point about the decking colour has nothing to do with the contractor. You chose the material so your complaint is with the manufacturer. Each of your points will be assessed in the same way.
    I agree, but surely based on the fact I have evidence to back my actions and he will obviously have no evidence to support his side, that is significant.
    Furthermore, what you are saying with regards to the material colour would be correct if we purchased the material, he purchased it on our behalf, therefore its not in our scope to chase this. The Invoice and proof of purchase would be in his name, if a plumber came and fixed your toilet and the toilet was still faulty, you wouldn't call the toilet manufacturer, you would call your plumber and let him deal with it, whether the blame lies with them or not, its their responsibility to rectify.
     
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    LeviL97

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    You also mentioned you felt the materials issue was his fault, but this needs you to show that he knew the materials were defective? If they failed in use, and it was unforeseen, then will not the supplier then also need to be brought into the proceedings. You can't fault him for not being a fortune teller? If he discovered some timber was rotten, or poorly treated but ignored it, then it's his fault? This is such a mess that any third party is going to struggle. In these cases, the consumer probably ends up worse off. It will come down to how good everyone's evidence is.
    Agreed, there is obviously no way you could blame someone for that, however, its his responsibility to deal with. The supplier should be brought into the conversation, however, citizens advice advised me not to get involved as its within the contractors scope of supply, furthermore, even if I wanted to, they would want to speak to the person who procured the goods with proof of purchase before discussing a defect further.
     
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    fisicx

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    As with all things the answer is: it depends.

    If the contract was to supply and install and that has been completed (and paid for) then subsequent failure may be outside the scope of the contract.
     
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    LeviL97

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    As with all things the answer is: it depends.

    If the contract was to supply and install and that has been completed (and paid for) then subsequent failure may be outside the scope of the contract.
    The 'contract' consisted with as much as, a Facebook message including what we would get for what price, we paid it. No T&C's, no quantities, no agreed suppliers for any of the materials. We paid him a lump sum and he did the rest, I really don't think he has any supporting evidence to fall back on.
     
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    A common mistake on legal matters is to try to 'sell' your case to the forum.

    It's understandable but ultimately pointless We aren't the judge

    The value to you of objections raised here is to go away and consider whether they are likely to be raised and how to address them.

    You will be better informed on the other side of the story than we are
     
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    Newchodge

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    I agree, but surely based on the fact I have evidence to back my actions and he will obviously have no evidence to support his side, that is significant.
    Furthermore, what you are saying with regards to the material colour would be correct if we purchased the material, he purchased it on our behalf, therefore its not in our scope to chase this. The Invoice and proof of purchase would be in his name, if a plumber came and fixed your toilet and the toilet was still faulty, you wouldn't call the toilet manufacturer, you would call your plumber and let him deal with it, whether the blame lies with them or not, its their responsibility to rectify.
    But you said you did not give them the chance to rectify, that is likely to make your claim extremely difficult.
     
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    Newchodge

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    The 'contract' consisted with as much as, a Facebook message including what we would get for what price, we paid it. No T&C's, no quantities, no agreed suppliers for any of the materials. We paid him a lump sum and he did the rest, I really don't think he has any supporting evidence to fall back on.
    You ared taking the claim. You need the supporting evidence.
     
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    HFE Signs

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    How did their quote compare to the others - just wondering if they underquoted and therefor cut corners. As above you're in a difficult position if you didn't give them the opportunity to rectify their poor work, equally though, I understand if you've lost confidence in their ability you'd want shot of them.

    I'm interested to hear where their quote was in comparison to others?
     
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    LeviL97

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    How did their quote compare to the others - just wondering if they underquoted and therefor cut corners. As above you're in a difficult position if you didn't give them the opportunity to rectify their poor work, equally though, I understand if you've lost confidence in their ability you'd want shot of them.

    I'm interested to hear where their quote was in comparison to others?
    Their quotation was within the ballpark of the 3 others that we got, context is key with regards to the rectification opportunity.
    It took several times of us pointing out problems with the work on numerous occasions before we were happy with any of it.
    For example, we encountered issue after issue with the quality of the work, on every occasion we were the ones having to point out the poor quality and if we hadn't, he would of just tried to get away with it. When we finally terminated the contract and didn't allow any further attempts at rectification, this was based on everything we had seen so far, I had lost all faith that they were competent enough to do the job to a suitable standard and therefore were wasting our resources and their own time.
    I felt like I was doing the best thing for us both as he could of kept coming back day after day and based on what we'd seen, we would of never signed off on the job.
     
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    2020Lawyer2020

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    A few minor points - what is the value of the claim? Presumably under £10,000 (if a small claim).
    What stage is it at? People often win on the basis of who has the best proof/paperwork eg if the other landscapers agree the decking was dreadful then make sure you have evidence from them.

    Also submit your documents etc when required by the court and follow the timescales set by the court.

    Make sure the court has all the papers in advance in order, following any rules set out by the court for that and bring an additional copy on the day of the hearing (assuming it is in person) in case they have not reached the judge (that is very common).

    Consider making an offer to the other party on a without prejudice basis to try to settle it in advance of a hearing.

    I do not agree you always have to allow a useless provider to make things even worse with a bad attempt at "fixing" an issue, although in most cases the solution is the workman WILL be asked to do the work properly. In fact a lot of Government contracts provide a "step in" clause where if work is done badly the buyer can step in and appoint their own person to do the work with the original contractor paying that person's charges although there is often a first chance to put the work right.

    Finally consider how much money is at stake v. if the stress and effort are worth this case. If they are also do check you have sued the right person - major mistake if you have not. Check again and again in all sources, invoices, companies house etc so be 100% sure you have the right legal entity - business sole trader, a limited company, a partnership etc Finally keep checking to see if he goes bust or changes his business structure to avoid paying - happens all the time.
     
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    LeviL97

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    Many thanks for your comments.
    I would say the claim would be around £5,000.
    We have lots of evidence in terms of photos/videos of the poor work etc and I've already collated all of the transactional information.
    We have already sent a notification letter and a letter before action, both of these have been received by the contractor and we haven't reached an conclusion, our next step is to raise the claim and set it all in motion.
    I would very much like to forget all about this and draw a line under it, however, its a large sum of money that we really could do with all things considered as due to his negligence we already went over budget.
     
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    Newchodge

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    Many thanks for your comments.
    I would say the claim would be around £5,000.
    We have lots of evidence in terms of photos/videos of the poor work etc and I've already collated all of the transactional information.
    We have already sent a notification letter and a letter before action, both of these have been received by the contractor and we haven't reached an conclusion, our next step is to raise the claim and set it all in motion.
    I would very much like to forget all about this and draw a line under it, however, its a large sum of money that we really could do with all things considered as due to his negligence we already went over budget.
    Does the other party have the funds to pay you, given they received no payment for the length of time they were working on your contract?
     
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    Gyumri

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    The OP apparently only noticed that the work wasn't being done satisfactorily until the contractor had completed the job.

    The only loss to the OP seems to have been the costs of the materials and the time wasted in putting things right - which he can't claim for as he would have had to pay such costs anyway.

    The work should have been stopped much earlier on. So it doesn't look promising to start suing.
     
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    kulture

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    The OP apparently only noticed that the work wasn't being done satisfactorily until the contractor had completed the job.

    The only loss to the OP seems to have been the costs of the materials and the time wasted in putting things right - which he can't claim for as he would have had to pay such costs anyway.

    The work should have been stopped much earlier on. So it doesn't look promising to start suing.

    It would help if you actually read what the OP said rather than invent it and then pass opinion on that invention.

    The OP said that they had problem after problem and eventually ended the contract early. Then they said that much of the material originally purchased was not up to standard and had to be replaced.

    So the OP is out of pocket for the ADDITIONAL material costs, the ADDITIONAL labour costs to remove the sub-standard work, and hassle.
     
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    Nico Albrecht

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    evidence in terms of photos/videos of the poor work
    Just for curiosity how did you come to that conclusion?

    Did you decide yourself it was poor, the other company finishing it or did you have an expert on site writing a report confirming this.

    Same goes for materials. Any testing done etc... or just your opinion or the other contractor it is no good.
     
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    intheTRADE

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    The 'contract' consisted with as much as, a Facebook message including what we would get for what price, we paid it. No T&C's, no quantities, no agreed suppliers for any of the materials. We paid him a lump sum and he did the rest, I really don't think he has any supporting evidence to fall back on.
    This one could go either way, but I am sensing it will go against you for not allowing rectification

    Slightly off topic, using Facebook to source and then not asking for T&C's and full breakdown of works, materials and time scales before just handing over a lump sum is sheer stupidity.
     
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    Michael Loveridge

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    Don't bother unduly about the allegations of not giving him an opportunity to rectify the work. It's a common - and mistaken - belief that you are obliged to do so. If a contractor makes a serious error, and even more so where he makes a series of errors, as in your case, you're quite entitled to terminate the contract immediately.

    If you're thinking of going to court there are the following crucial points to consider:

    1. Do you know exactly who your contract is with? If there’s a limited company involved then you must check out the financial status of the company before starting court proceedings. There are many small traders who hide their incompetence behind a limited company, knowing that they can just dump it and set up a new one if it gets sued. You would simply be throwing good money after bad in such a case.

    2. If you are dealing with him as an individual and not a limited company, check whether he owns his house at the Land Registry. If he does, then he's probably worth suing. If he doesn't then he probably isn't.

    3. The court will order that a report from an independent expert witness is obtained. As it's only a small claim you will be expected to agree on who that witness should be. It might therefore be a good idea to do this before going to court, as the report might well come down on one side or the other, and either persuade you that it's not worth suing him or persuade him that he'd better try to settle with you.

    4. People think that because it's only the small claims court the procedure is simple. It can be where the dispute itself is simple, e.g. a washing machine that doesn't work. But this type of case is not simple. You must still comply with the court rules, even though you know nothing about them. In particular, you need to set out your claim properly, and establish on legal grounds why the court should award you damages (financial compensation) for breach of contract.

    This means that when you issue the claim you must set out the terms of the original contract, full details of the breaches, and an evidence-backed estimate of the remedial costs. Such an exercise is not easy for a lay person.

    5. Before you go down the court route check to see whether or not the contractor is a member of a trade body, e.g. the British Association of Landscape Industries, as if he is there may be some form of dispute resolution process you can use. This would almost always be much cheaper and quicker than going to court.
     
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    ethical PR

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    When consulting citizens advice, they advised me that if I can prove a poor standard of work has been demonstrated throughout, then you don't have to give them the option to rectify the work, I have photo's/video's and verbal accounts of those that would testify to the recurring poor examples of work.
    presumably you got a landscaping expert to come in and provide a report that confirmed what your state happened?
     
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