PAYE Fiasco – should the UKBF accountants help?

[elaine@cheapaccounting]

Hi

I am also one of Elaine's associates and I will be helping out with this (no thumb screws required)

Andrea Dobson

welcome to Andrea

She is here:

http://www.cheapaccounting.co.uk/andreadobson/

Be nice to her as well please

 

[elaine@cheapaccounting]

And now we have 10 qualified accountants.

Two more from us:

Nigel Herring:

http://www.cheapaccounting.co.uk/nigelherring/

Toni Young:

http://www.cheapaccounting.co.uk/toniyoung/

 

[Becky Midgley]

In response to this thread we have set up a dedicated sub-forum under Accounts & Finance: http://www.ukbusinessforums.co.uk/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=122

 

[elaine@cheapaccounting]

In response to this thread we have set up a dedicated sub-forum under Accounts & Finance: http://www.ukbusinessforums.co.uk/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=122

Yeah - thank you Becky

Off we go.

Max - have you got the copy ready?

 

[elaine@cheapaccounting]

Action to all those volunteering - please email me your biog ..

Just a few lines please and a photo if you have it.

I will include it on our forum!

 

[maxine]

Blimey, just got out of my meeting... shall get on it now

 

[Tom McClelland]

IMO this will happen again - see my blog:

http://www.cheapaccounting.co.uk/blog/?p=802

There is another reason why it will happen again.

My understanding is that the 840,000 underpayments relates to only the most recent PAYE year. Now that HMRC have combined the data from the separate systems that use to be involved my understanding is that they intend to repeat the exercise for further historic PAYE years, presumably only if they get plenty of income out of the first year's bills.

So this could just be the start. Can they go back 7 years with this?

I don't think that we're equipped to give professional advice about this to taxpayers. But if any of you come across a situation where advice from the payroll processor/software point of view would be helpful then feel free to get in touch.

 

[elaine@cheapaccounting]

Blimey, just got out of my meeting... shall get on it now

Great - go girl

I have asked for biog from all of us - best do mine then

 

[elaine@cheapaccounting]

So this could just be the start. Can they go back 7 years with this?

If you are owe tax then you can!!!!!

 

[RAL]

There is another reason why it will happen again.

My understanding is that the 840,000 underpayments relates to only the most recent PAYE year.

Absolutely agree. This will happen again and there will be more notices issued.

These notices (840,000) relates to tax year 2008/09 and 2009/10.

 

[David Griffiths]

Just to throw up an interesting question - will you tell people that checking their tax bills for them might result in the liability actually increasing?

There is no guarantee that the revised bills are correct, and they could be wrong either way.

What will you do if the tax bill is too low and the taxpayer refuses to point this out?

 

[weebly_one]

I would - but as a lowly bookkeeper I leave tax to the expert- my accountant!

 

[adamsgi]

Happy to throw my hat into the ring too. Owner of a payroll bureau with special interest in foreign taxes (in particular Ireland, Isle of Man, and Channel Islands). We are already offering a similar service to employees of our clients.

 

[elaine@cheapaccounting]

Just to throw up an interesting question - will you tell people that checking their tax bills for them might result in the liability actually increasing?

There is no guarantee that the revised bills are correct, and they could be wrong either way.

What will you do if the tax bill is too low and the taxpayer refuses to point this out?

Providing a free service in no way compromises on the professional standards that we would all follow.

If this were to happen we would inform the tax payer. It is up to them how they act on the info as it is for any of our clients in our Practices.

As always we have to follow our professional ethics and ML regs.

 

[taxattack]

Just to throw up an interesting question - will you tell people that checking their tax bills for them might result in the liability actually increasing?

There is no guarantee that the revised bills are correct, and they could be wrong either way.

What will you do if the tax bill is too low and the taxpayer refuses to point this out?

David (as usual) raises a very important point. Without wishing to pour cold water on Elaine's excellent initiative, the ML implications need to be considered. In my view (and I'm very open to correction) the proposed assistance would not fall within the 2007 Regulations, not being a business transaction, and therefore KYC would not apply. However, POCA 2002 would apply, and S330 is likely to come into play from time to time.

The above, and something similar I shall be doing locally, make me hesitate to join in at present, but good luck with it.

Chris

 

[elaine@cheapaccounting]

So let's just give a reality check here then ....

We shouldn't do this because we may fall fail of money laundering regs?

Is that what everyone thinks?

 

[Williams lester]

Is that what everyone thinks?

Not everyone....those of us who want to do it...let's do it. Those who don't, don't!

 

[MyAccountantOnline]

So let's just give a reality check here then ....

We shouldn't do this because we may fall fail of money laundering regs?

Is that what everyone thinks?

My thoughts....

It really is a very sad world when you cant offer a charitable service and offer other people genuine help for fear of breaching legislation like this.

Truly very sad indeed, but sadly the reality.

I think we need some specialist advice to safeguard us all.

Isn't their a chap on AccountingWeb who is a ML expert - I so rarely go on there and cant recall his name, but perhaps he could help if anyone knows who I mean.

 

[elaine@cheapaccounting]

Isn't their a chap on AccountingWeb who is a ML expert - I so rarely go on there and cant recall his name, but perhaps he could help if anyone knows who I mean.

great idea - we just need clarification.

Anyone know his name?

 

[Philip Hoyle]

great idea - we just need clarification.

Anyone know his name?

David Winch I think - he usually answers the questions relating the money laundering and tax crime etc - I think he runs his own money laundering consultancy practice.

 

[elaine@cheapaccounting]

Now I had my second cup of tea and brain engaged my thoughts ....

The tax payer is not and will not be a client (unless contracted to the accountant separately and then normal rules apply).


The disclaimer on ALL correspondence with the tax payer is that:


The information given is advice ONLY.



No responsibility at all can be accepted for any loss incurred etc etc.


(I will post in legal to get a proper wording)


I am sure that the CAB and the likes must have the same issue.

 

[elaine@cheapaccounting]

David Winch I think - he usually answers the questions relating the money laundering and tax crime etc - I think he runs his own money laundering consultancy practice.

Is it this David Winch?

http://twitter.com/davidwinch

 

[David Griffiths]

The tax payer is not and will not be a client (unless contracted to the accountant separately and then normal rules apply).

.

I don't think that would affect ML issues. The reportable matters are those that come to the attention of the accountant in their capacity as an accountant - i.e. not necessarily directly related to client matters. And if you are not advising the "victims" in your capacity as an accountant, in what capacity are you doing it?


And for the record, I've already PM'd Elaine to explain that I will not be joining in the initiative and giving reasons, one of which is that I've done this kind of free advice thing before.

 

[taxattack]

Is it this David Winch?

http://twitter.com/davidwinch

No, that's another David Winch! This is the relevant David Winch

http://www.mlrosupport.co.uk/

Chris

 

[elaine@cheapaccounting]

I don't think that would affect ML issues. The reportable matters are those that come to the attention of the accountant in their capacity as an accountant - i.e. not necessarily directly related to client matters. And if you are not advising the "victims" in your capacity as an accountant, in what capacity are you doing it?

then surely this applies to us giving advice on here

 

[MyAccountantOnline]

No, that's another David Winch! This is the relevant David Winch

http://www.mlrosupport.co.uk/

Chris

Thats the chap I was thinking of

 

[taxattack]

So let's just give a reality check here then ....

We shouldn't do this because we may fall fail of money laundering regs?

Is that what everyone thinks?

It was not my intention to put everyone off, merely to sound a cautionary note. To repeat myself, and with added emphasis:

In my view (and I'm very open to correction) the proposed assistance would not fall within the 2007 Regulations, not being a business transaction, and therefore KYC would not apply. However, POCA 2002 would apply, and S330 is likely to come into play from time to time.

​

The point about POCA would apply in exactly the same way as to any other engagement.

Chris

 

[elaine@cheapaccounting]

OK to clarify on this:

- we will give advice only

- in the same way as all UKBF accountants give on here every day

- we will apply the same ML considerations as are applied to the posts here and advice given on here

 

[elaine@cheapaccounting]

I
The point about POCA would apply in exactly the same way as to any other engagement.

Chris

It is not an engagement.

Do you give a half hour free consultation to prospective new client?

 

[taxattack]

then surely this applies to us giving advice on here

It is not an engagement.

Do you give a half hour free consultation to prospective new client?

Yes (often longer actually) and my understanding is that POCA applies in these cases, subject to professional privilege, if applicable.

The point about POCA is that it applies to everyone, not just accountants, but with particular application to those within the regulated sector.

The difference with advice on the forum is that the identity of the poster is not generally known, and therefore no reporting obligation can arise.

I am not an apologist for the legislation - I detest it - but it's there and we have to work within it.

Btw, I'm guided by the CCAB Guidance http://www.ccab.org.uk/PDFs/070612 CCAB Guidance Clean.pdf

Chris

 

[elaine@cheapaccounting]

I am sure that if we find a reporting need under the POCA we all would report it as we would in all instances that we come across.

Let's try to keep this real ....

We are talking about PAYE tax payers here who find themselves presented with a tax demand.

Yes there is a risk that they may be a 'wrong un' but IMO the risk is small.

Otherwise we are living in a world where all tax payers are criminals !!

I think not

 

[gordano]

Checking online there are lots of articles about the error but I cannot find any examples of letters received from HMRC. Has anyone actually received a letter yet?

 

[elaine@cheapaccounting]

Checking online there are lots of articles about the error but I cannot find any examples of letters received from HMRC. Has anyone actually received a letter yet?

nope - still waiting for our first taker!

Maybe it is all a myth and the letters don't exist

 

[Becky Midgley]

nope - still waiting for our first taker!

Maybe it is all a myth and the letters don't exist

Don't! I'm panicking every day when I get home; don't want to check the post! It's like my life has been put on hold until I find out either way if I owe / am owed / or unaffected (although I understand if the latter then I won't get a letter at all which means my breathing is on hold until the press say 'It's all over').

Horrible, horrible time for UK taxpayers on PAYE.

 

[elaine@cheapaccounting]

Don't! I'm panicking every day when I get home; don't want to check the post! It's like my life has been put on hold until I find out either way if I owe / am owed / or unaffected (although I understand if the latter then I won't get a letter at all which means my breathing is on hold until the press say 'It's all over').

Horrible, horrible time for UK taxpayers on PAYE.

More than happy to check your figures to put your mind at rest

 

[Becky Midgley]

More than happy to check your figures to put your mind at rest

Thanks Elaine, I wouldn't know where to start!

It's true what they have been saying in the press by the way: the common person has very little knowledge of tax matters, and perhaps this is of our own doing, but to me, it has always been something which is done automatically and I have, rightly or wrongly, assumed that my tax codes have been correct. The tax office issue them, never for a second thought to question them.

What would you need? Copies of P60s, payslips?

 

[elaine@cheapaccounting]

That is exactly my view ....

And TBH - why would you.

That was the whole reason that PAYE was introduced.

Otherwise we would go the route of say the USA and do an annual tax return for everyone.

Not sure everyone would want that but it would be good for accountants.

To emphasis though - those with businesses and complex tax affairs would be completing a self assessment.

So their tax will be right (assuming all is declared!)

It is PAYE tax payer that are affected and they are unlikely to have an accountant or be used to receiving a brown envelope from HMRC.

OK - for me to check each tax year I need P60 and P45s to start with.

Just email over scanned items or give me a call with the figures and I will do a quick initial check to see if there is likely to be a problem.

 

[Faevilangel]

I think what you "lot" have agreed to do is brilliant, and as you put in the introduction Elaine, the hardest hit will be those who don't know they would owe it.

I am a member of a forum where a lot of people who will be affected, would visit, do you mind me putting the details up on their site so the users can contact you?

The site is a UK based consumer forum so would be the perfect audience!

 

[elaine@cheapaccounting]

I think what you "lot" have agreed to do is brilliant, and as you put in the introduction Elaine, the hardest hit will be those who don't know they would owe it.

I am a member of a forum where a lot of people who will be affected, would visit, do you mind me putting the details up on their site so the users can contact you?

The site is a UK based consumer forum so would be the perfect audience!

go for it - yes please

 

[frauke]

Hi Elaine,

I've not been here for a while, and have not read every post ... amazed by the number, but you can count me in.

I have been helping friends and reletives without UTRs for years (I recently help sort my "step-daughters" rebate for 2007/08 and 2009/10 and now trying to help her get a tax code (She's on BR Wk1! and she only has one employer). I discovered all this by accident, when I help her set up a filing system for her paperwork which were all still in unopened envelopes!