PAT Testing

[sri_130]

How much do you pay per item?
I found a new company (local to me) that did our entire shop for £50! I thought that was a bargain. The previous year we paid £1.50 per item and it totalled £100+.

Not sure I should advertise on their behalf, but just wondering if I got a good deal.

 

[GemmaC]

Thats a great price - I usually pay £1.00 per item! A typical sweep of the office will cost in excess of £200!

Who are they? Do they service London?

 

[Bri]

How much do you pay per item?
I found a new company (local to me) that did our entire shop for £50! I thought that was a bargain. The previous year we paid £1.50 per item and it totalled £100+.

Not sure I should advertise on their behalf, but just wondering if I got a good deal.

great that you got it done for that, dont know how long he will be in business for though so you may be back to your 1.50 an item next year.

 

[sri_130]

UPDATE:

He's been back earlier today to replace a plug on one of our stylist straightners as the report showed that it failed a test - needless to say the repair was free and I've taken some flyers to help out some of the other small businesses around here.

I asked him about London and the rest of the UK and he operates out of Leeds, but also rents a tiny office in Oxford to cover the South. He tries to fit in all the Londony based sites within a few weeks of the year and therefore can charge cheap (northern I presume) prices to you southerners without commuting from up here just for the odd job.

Not sure if I can post their details but will give it a go and face the music. The company is called FusedUk and the details on the flyer say web address of fuseduk (dot) co (dot) uk.

Their website doesn't have anywhere to leave a review, it links to another site, but I think i'll put something on there - looks like a few hair salon's have given it a go, already!

anyway, hope its of some use to someone, pretty easy way to cut costs this year, it was double that in 2009.

 

[Bri]

He's been back earlier today to replace a plug on one of our stylist straightners as the report showed that it failed a test - needless to say the repair was free and I've taken some flyers to help out some of the other small businesses around here.

Free????What he didnt charge you for the plug and the return visit. How local is he, does he live on top of your salon?Please carry on using and recommending him because you are getting one hell of a bargain there.The man is going to be a busy fool.

 

[sri_130]

Free????What he didnt charge you for the plug and the return visit. How local is he, does he live on top of your salon?Please carry on using and recommending him because you are getting one hell of a bargain there.The man is going to be a busy fool.

LOL!

No, it was free! He is about 4 miles away I think, but was doing another shop over the road, I totally forgot the thing failed too, good job he came back!

I've checked his website and it says "free repairs" so I guess I should have expected it.

Good luck to him, he was dead nice and really thorough. I guess he'll be really busy with a decent service like that. I think I'll write them a review tomorrow.

 

[luvbusiness]

Wow ...does he do free rewires too

 

[sri_130]

Wow ...does he do free rewires too

What does that mean!? It was a pair of Wella straighteners (a few years old now) and they failed a bondage (oo er) test or something! A new plug, fresh sticker and a print out of some sort of electronical readings and he was on his way!

Sorry - not exactly clued up on stuff like this!

 

[sri_130]

Just asked my husband (he registered us on here) and he said that rewiring electrics is an electricians job?!

 

[paulears]

Re-wiring a plug as the result of PAT doesn't need an electrician. After all, if the tester is competent to carry out the test and produce a conclusion, he should be knowledgeable enough to manage a plug, and then certify it as safe!

Personally, I have a big beef with PAT when carried out by people who've been on the course, but have no real knowledge of what they're doing.

If you are having equipment tested to generate paperwork showing you've taken steps to ensure your equipment is safe, then anybody with a tester can provide the service at a low cost. If you actually want testing to genuinely check the equipment to reduce the danger, then it takes longer, and cannot be this cheap.

A good example is that in practice, visual inspection is the first component of the test. Visual inspection, some would argue, means taking the lid off any re-wirable plug and checking the three terminals are tight, and the wiring internally is in good condition. Cheap firms take the stance (in general) that the visual inspection doesn't involve anything other than looking at the bits you can see without a screwdriver. Then you plug it in and press TEST. If it passes, move on. It doesn't show you the wire from the live terminal that's almost, but not quite touching the earth!

PAT is time based. Do the sums. Work out how many tests they did and how long they were actually on the premises. 50p a test, means that to earn minimum wage they need to do 12 tests an hour - 5 minutes per test. Considering that you'd have to go some to do that many, and you have visual inspection, the test and the paperwork to do on each one - let alone moving from item to item, something doesn't quite add up. A good trick is to test things like the computer, or the photocopier, and then test every single IEC (Kettle type) lead, bam, bam, bam and if they are in a big pile you can do these really quickly to make up the quantity. You could of course test the computer and lead as a single assembly - you can't test the computer without the lead to power it up. If the computer or cable is faulty, it will fail. Moulded IEC cables rarely fail the test unless they're damaged, so check to see if yours are tested separately from the equipment they power - it's unnecessary testing, but can easily be justified. I've lost count of the number of calls I get who say "we do testing to help you comply with the Electricity at Work Act ...".

I borrow (or occasionally hire) a tester, and do my own. I'd estimate that 80% of my failures are spotted from the visual inspection. I'm not a 'proper' electrician, and there's no need to be - just a competent person.

I've got some pretty specialist equipment and there is no way I'd let some testers I'm aware of connect any of this to their tester and just push the button.

If you are paying £1 or so a test, and you know they do a good job, this seems fair. If it's half this price, what part of the testing process is being missed?

 

[Beachcomber]

I found a new company (local to me) that did our entire shop for £50!

Could I ask how long he was there for?
Also, what info / paperwork did you get?

 

[TotallySport]

I don't know if anyone is interested, but PAT testing isn't a legal requirement, due diligence is a legal requirement of which PAT testing can be part of.

 

[Beachcomber]

I don't know if anyone is interested, but PAT testing isn't a legal requirement, due diligence is a legal requirement of which PAT testing can be part of.

Isn't it usually a condition of your insurance though?

 

[What If]

What does that mean!? It was a pair of Wella straighteners (a few years old now) and they failed a bondage (oo er)test or something! A new plug, fresh sticker and a print out of some sort of electronical readings and he was on his way!

Sorry - not exactly clued up on stuff like this!

How David Brent is that!

 

[Bri]

Bless his little cotton socks, he's gonna be so busy, coming up form this.I hope he wises up at some stage for his own sake.

 

[paulears]

I've got nothing in my policy about testing that I can see. It's just necessary to take all reasonable steps to ensure safety.

The defence against a prosecution under the EAWR is...

QUOTE
...it shall be a defence for any person to prove that he took all reasonable steps and exercise all due diligence to avoid the commission of that offence.

 

[TotallySport]

I've got nothing in my policy about testing that I can see. It's just necessary to take all reasonable steps to ensure safety.

The defence against a prosecution under the EAWR is...

QUOTE
...it shall be a defence for any person to prove that he took all reasonable steps and exercise all due diligence to avoid the commission of that offence.

I personally think that in some case PAT testing is a good thing, however in many cases I think Pat Test all applicance every year is unnessesary, it would be interesting to know the stats on injuries casesd in the work place by electrical products with electical faults that are pat tested and none pat tested and which sectors they are in.

And all reasonable steps depends on your point of view, the amount of companies trying to sell me PAT testing in the last 6 months telling me its a legal requirement, and the putting the phone down rudely when I point out its not and the cannot back up their claim is getting silly.

 

[TehBen]

Just browsing this forum and I came across this thread.

I used to carry out portable appliance tesing at my previous place of work.

I just wanted to point out that although not exactly a legal requirement of some insurance policies. If something, god forbid, did happen and an employee was hurt or even killed by a faulty electronic appliance, it could be argued that due diligence was not carried out as the appliance had not been PA tested.
A record of visual inspections at least would help in the event of something happening.

With regards to appliance testers not, for example, opening a plug to view the internal connections; an insulation and continuity test will actually show whether the connections are properly connected. There is a threshold that would have been stored in any testing device that ensures that a good connection must be made. So if the plug passes an electrical continuity and insulation test, and the test was designed with the correct type of plug, type of appliance and length of cable, then there is a good chance that all internal connections are sound, and therefore there is no reason to open the plug.

Seeing as it is quite easy for some people to enter into this kind of work, I would make sure that the person doing the testing is using the proper equipment and has extensive knowledge of PAT, and ideally, is a qualified electrician. It is very easy to make an appliance pass a test by adjusting certain testing parameters; which is something that could easily get somebody killed.

 

[bdw]

Personally, I have a big beef with PAT when carried out by people who've been on the course, but have no real knowledge of what they're doing.

Unfortunately there's a lot of this going on. I just Googled "PAT Testing Regulations" and most of the sites at the top of the rankings mislead or lie about the legal requirements. On one site I see this statement, "Employers have responsibilities under PAT testing regulations in law to carry out a PAT Test on all items of portable electrical equipment."

IMO the laws with regard to PAT testing actually create a situation which encourages people to take risks by employing unqualified people to make decisions on the condition of their equipment. Anyone can take training for under £200 and set themselves up in a PAT testing business.

If you have a business where you have many tools and appliances and you employ staff then you would be better advised to get one of them trained up to do it in house.

Apart from misleading people about the legal requirements, the risks involved are often also exaggerated by people trying to sell these services. You guys should have a look at what the HSE say about this. You will find it quite enlightening. http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/indg236.pdf

(Incidentally I am a qualified electrical engineer.)
​

.

 

[Minuteman Press]

We pay 42p per unit.

 

[sri_130]

Could I ask how long he was there for?
Also, what info / paperwork did you get?

He was there from when I opened at 9.15 until approx 14.30. and then a few minutes the day after for the repair.

Paperwork is an itemised report on each appliance tested, it states what it is, where it is, some electronicy readings for each one and a number which ties in with its sticker.

On the back page of the folder is a certificate.

 

[sri_130]

Unfortunately there's a lot of this going on. I just Googled "PAT Testing Regulations" and most of the sites at the top of the rankings mislead or lie about the legal requirements. On one site I see this statement, "Employers have responsibilities under PAT testing regulations in law to carry out a PAT Test on all items of portable electrical equipment."

IMO the laws with regard to PAT testing actually create a situation which encourages people to take risks by employing unqualified people to make decisions on the condition of their equipment. Anyone can take training for under £200 and set themselves up in a PAT testing business.

If you have a business where you have many tools and appliances and you employ staff then you would be better advised to get one of them trained up to do it in house.

Apart from misleading people about the legal requirements, the risks involved are often also exaggerated by people trying to sell these services. You guys should have a look at what the HSE say about this. You will find it quite enlightening. http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/indg236.pdf

(Incidentally I am a qualified electrical engineer.)​

.

I can only speak from my experience of this company and previous companies, but looks like I've found a good one.

These straighteners that failed heat up to silly degrees and I've had them ages. The two previous firms I used (larger companies from electrical firms) spent half the time in my shop, charged more and nothing failed!!! I had no reports or anything. It just makes me wonder, if they tested anything at all. if I wasn't so busy, I'd have shadowed them, to ensure they werent' just putting stickers on.

So based on my opinion and experience, a smaller more specialised outfit might be the best way to go. I mean, I use these straighteners on customers hair!! They go so close to the scalp as well, god forbid anything going wrong, but I'm not a pat tester or an electrician or have the slightest Idea what to test for, so I thought I was just doing the correct thing by my customers having a professional brought in????!!!

My insurance doesn't require it either (at least I can't see it in the text) but for £50 - in my example - I'm more than happy that someone arrived, was curtious and completed the work to a satisfactory level (albeit I am not skilled in any other profession to judge his workmanship), I've got more paperwork and a nice certificate to boot. it cost me 2 x cups of tea and £50.

I think there will / can be lenghty debates on the topic, but I was just posting my experience to help everyone else out - if they want it. I thought it was right to praise, where praise is required to a small business, which benefited my small business!!! Spread the love (David Brent eat your heart out).



(INCIDENTALLY, I'M A HAIRDRESSER A good one!)

 

[Bri]

on that basis he may only be making £150/week without declarations.

as I said earlier you personally have had a good deal and as you say, super duper paperwork, which is essential( I had a lengthy heated debate just about paperwork on here last year ).My concern is whether he will be still around next yr to give you the same service and its a good lesson the you dont have to be expensive to give good service. You've had Rolls Royce service for mini prices.

 

[sri_130]

on that basis he may only be making £150/week without declarations.

Poor bloke I'll ask him how much he makes next year!

 

[bdw]

Perhaps he fancies you?

 

[sri_130]

Perhaps he fancies you?

hehe......

 

[paulears]

J
With regards to appliance testers not, for example, opening a plug to view the internal connections; an insulation and continuity test will actually show whether the connections are properly connected. There is a threshold that would have been stored in any testing device that ensures that a good connection must be made. So if the plug passes an electrical continuity and insulation test, and the test was designed with the correct type of plug, type of appliance and length of cable, then there is a good chance that all internal connections are sound, and therefore there is no reason to open the plug.

Sorry - but this is exactly the slack kind of PAT that to me, is pointless.
My example of the plug where the terminals were tight, the cable grip, form outside looked secure doesn't reveal that with just a few short plug in/plug out cycles, the extra bare conductor, where the plug was poorly fitted is about to touch something else - is the example where the machine says safe, but should really just safe safe now, not next week?

What is the point of a test that ignores potentially dangerous faults that could so easily have been repaired.

Many PAT companies seem to test, then when they get a failure, they cut off the plug, stick a fail label on, and move on. Fixing it - possibly a 1 minute job is ignored because tests make money, inspection and quick repair doesn't.

PAT has become a scam - which must annoy the decent testing companies, but what can they do about it.

Oh - by the way. There is no rules that states a yearly test. An item considered low risk - maybe something like a chest freezer, that is never unplugged or even moved could reasonably have a longer interval between tests, but maybe something in continual use like a hairdryer in a salon should really have a 6 monthly test - IF the idea is to protect the user?

 

[sri_130]

maybe something like a chest freezer, that is never unplugged or even moved could reasonably have a longer interval between tests, but maybe something in continual use like a hairdryer in a salon should really have a 6 monthly test - IF the idea is to protect the user?

Really good point.

 

[GemmaC]

PAT Testing isn't only to protect the user, it's to protect the business also. Losing a vital (expensive) piece of equipment like a photocopier could cause major problems - there is also the problem of plugging badly wired equipment into your mains and affecting other electrical items.

PAT testing often features on company's H&S policy statement and risk assessment although this is not mandatory. Most businesses are prudent about PAT testing with good reason.

I think it's a shame that people seem to be suggesting this guy is some sort of rogue trader. His website shows he has the right certifications. It's funny how we are all suspicious of suppliers who genuinely offer good value for money. If he's a start up maybe this is some kind of introductory offer in a bid to build his client base - nothing wrong with that. Let's not forget that this is only a salon not a busy office with 100 staff so maybe his pricing reflects that.

Nothing said here would put me off contacting him.

 

[GemmaC]

We pay 42p per unit.

Even better Minuteman! You show me yours, and I'll show you mine...

 

[bdw]

I think it's a shame that people seem to be suggesting this guy is some sort of rogue trader.

Well for my part I was not suggesting this at all. This guy sounds like he is doing a good job but I still think he fancies Sri.

 

[MASSEY]

There is more than just Pat testing to take into consideration, you also have to have a fixed wiring test at certain times dependig on type of property.

 

[Indigo Cherry]

I used to work for a private ambulance service and we found a local company in Kent that would come to us and do the whole lot for £45+VAT. This was a brilliant deal as th enearest we could find to that was £1.10 per item.

Of course it all depends on how big your business is and how many items need testing. If you only have 10 items, £45 isn't such a great deal! lol

 

[MASSEY]

I think pat testing is a waste of time which is why it is hard to find people interested enough.

The real money is on a domestic level, less paper work and all that blah blah insurance.

 

[Indigo Cherry]

I think pat testing is a waste of time which is why it is hard to find people interested enough.

The real money is on a domestic level, less paper work and all that blah blah insurance.

I agree it is a waste of time but a necessity for most companies.

 

[Bri]

I drove past a guy with an advert on his van on my way back from Cornwall today and thought about this thread straight away.

 

[draelectricals]

LOL!

No, it was free! He is about 4 miles away I think, but was doing another shop over the road, I totally forgot the thing failed too, good job he came back!

I've checked his website and it says "free repairs" so I guess I should have expected it.

Good luck to him, he was dead nice and really thorough. I guess he'll be really busy with a decent service like that. I think I'll write them a review tomorrow.

The guy should have replaced the plug before he did the electrical test then it would never have failed and he would not have had to come back and waste more money. Turning up at a job without spares is not good practice, just shoddy.

 

[draelectricals]

How much do you pay per item?
I found a new company (local to me) that did our entire shop for £50! I thought that was a bargain. The previous year we paid £1.50 per item and it totalled £100+.

Not sure I should advertise on their behalf, but just wondering if I got a good deal.

If last year it was £100+ and this year only £50 this guy is (a) a major bargain and (b) a fool who won't be in business next year.

I own a successful PAT testing company and for a min 66 items wouldn't ever charge only £50 that's not even worth the time. You also have to wonder if he is doing the job properly as at less than 75p per item he won't be producing much profit. It's like you saying to all your clients I'll cut your hair for 1/2 price, for the rest of your life - you wouldn't do it.

Have you checked your certificates to make sure all the correct tests have been done? A hairdresser is a high risk environment - all those electrical appliances, with close proximity to water, you need to be sure the tests are being done properley otherwise that £50 could be the most EXPENSIVE PAT you've ever had if someone gets a shock.

Please check what your getting for your money. As we all know very well - Cheapest is rarely the best.

 

[draelectricals]

I would just like to say, at the end of this post, everyone is entitled to their own opinion and we all have to respect that.

This guy that the thread is all about could be totally genuine, and be good at what he does, he just doesn't have that much business sense, or he would be charging more. It is not price but service that counts in any job, and if you sell the service well the price doesn't usually matter.

Most electricians will stick to electricals - house bashing etc. as that's where the money is. Some decide to do something else.

I decided to concentrate on business 2 business very early on in my business plan, and quickly learnt that PAT Testing was the way forward. With other services offered too I have a built up a strong and healthy business and I am 100% confident what I do is genuine and necessary.

No, it is not law to get a PAT test done, but it is law to follow a number of other steps and be able to prove you have taken all action possible to ensure you're appliances are safe, and the only way to prove that in the eyes of the law is by providing a PAT certificate:

A H&S inspector, and Insurance Ivestigater and a H&S consultant will all expect to see the PAT certificate, and if you ain't got them you will be expected to.

In addition - if someone wants to pay the money, do the course and set up on their own - good luck to them, we're in a recession and everyone has to do what is best for them. But only experience gives competance. Just passing a test doesn't. But how much experience is enough? Who am I to say.

In my experience the best pat testers are those that do it every day, not those that do it as a sideline to other things. Just like the best periodic testers do that every day, and the best fixers do that every day.

If a company wants to pay to train their own inhouse personnel to do testing, buy all the equipment, etc. that's fine. But in my experience by the time it comes to next tests that person will have totally forgotten what they are doing, and you'll still need to get someone in. This is only worth it for big companies where one guy will spend all year testing.

Final point - not everything needs testing every year - some things 3 months, some 2 years and some 4. Companies can get exposed into paying too much but on the other hand it can get complicated as no company will find every appliance they have will have the same interval. For example if you have 200 items, of which 120 have to be done every 2 years, 60 every 4 years and 20 every year it gets complicated and confusing for all parties.

If anyone wants to discuss this privately feel free to message me.

 

[bdw]

DRA above you say ...

No, it is not law to get a PAT test done,

On your website's homepage you say ...

All businesses no matter how big or small require a PAT Test.

That to me looks like you are suggesting that is is the law or at least a requirement, which it clearly is not.

As I said in post 19 of this thread ...

Apart from misleading people about the legal requirements, the risks involved are often also exaggerated by people trying to sell these services. You guys should have a look at what the HSE say about this. You will find it quite enlightening. http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/indg236.pdf

Bear in mind that the information I have posted is based not on my opinion but on what is stated in the above leaflet from the UK Health and Safety Executive. Read it, it is non technical and quite interesting.

Here's another, again from the HSE that is a bit more down to earth (no pun intended).

.