PAT testing query

[FirstClassVirtualOffice]

Can a PAT tester carry out pat testing on their own business equipment?

 

[simon field]

Yes indeedy

http://www.pat-testing-expert.com/training/faq.php

 

[paulears]

That's why we bought our own machine - to only use for our own kit!

 

[msec]

I would say yes of course.

However, there is an obvious difference between a PAT tester testing thier premises and an unqualified, inexperienced person buying a PAT testing machie and doing it themselves.

 

[paulears]

One you make an assumption that people are unqualified and inexperienced, buying one for themselves - but most importantly the VAST majority of testers I meet are testing on the basis of a one day course, and repeatedly fail equipment because they do not understand it - and also have misplaced belief in that they somehow have magical powers that allow them to cut off the plugs of 'dangerous' equipment. I use many specialised pieces of professional power equipment - and I have had expensive moulded patch cables cut up because they could not be tested, 15A unsleeved plugs cut off as dangerous, and Class II equipment with plastic mouldings into a aluminium body failed because the earth probe was attached to a metal part that is totally insulated - so please lets not start the PAT joke again. Some people are competent to test, others are not - and telling the two apart needs more than a couple of lines of text! (and I do NOT mean the one day course). How many paid for tests still stick on the next test date? The fact this is no longer a requirement has ben kept very quiet by many testing businesses!

 

[fisicx]

You do know that you don't need to have anything tested. It's up to you as the owner as to the level of testing carried out

http://www.hse.gov.uk/electricity/faq-portable-appliance-testing.htm

It says:

Is PAT compulsory?
No. The law simply requires an employer to ensure that their electrical equipment is maintained in order to prevent danger. It does not say how this should be done or how often.

 

[paulears]

almost every day I get a call from a testing firm telling me they're in my area and would love to help me comply with the law. I ask them a technical question to do with three phase dimmer packs, and listen to the rubbish they come up with. It's a very protective business area - not in terms of safety but in terms of frightening clueless customers.

 

[DDAFIRE]

You do know that you don't need to have anything tested. It's up to you as the owner as to the level of testing carried out

http://www.hse.gov.uk/electricity/faq-portable-appliance-testing.htm

It says:

Is PAT compulsory?
No. The law simply requires an employer to ensure that their electrical equipment is maintained in order to prevent danger. It does not say how this should be done or how often.

Be careful with this.

Although the Law doesn't state that Portable appliance testing is compulsory, the HSE also gives guidance on how often certain portable electrical items should be tested as part of a suitable maintenance regime. The time frames outlined in this document are the standard that you will [most likely] be judged to in a court of law, should something go wrong.

 

[FirstClassVirtualOffice]

Just to elaborate, the pat tester works for an organisation that has a few shops selling second hand goods so they pat test them before selling them on.

Now presuming they got their employers permission, can the pat tester carry out testing on items that belongs to their own equipment in another small business that the employee owns, and most importantly would it affect anyone's insurance should anything later go up in smoke that had been pat tested by them? Meaning, could the insurers say, no sorry, you're not covered because you were the pat tester of your own equipment?

 

[fisicx]

Be careful with this.

I agree but the pont I was making is that many devices don't ever need testing.

For example: If you are in an office with properly installed IT equipment then PAT is just not needed.

FCVO: have you read the documentation? The chap doing the testing just needs to be competent, they don't need to be trained. The whole PAT thing is a myth perpetrated by those with the test equipment.

Caveat: just becasue you can test your kettle doesn't mean you are qualified to repair it. I always use a sparky to play with the wiggly amps.

 

[DDAFIRE]

Just to elaborate, the pat tester works for an organisation that has a few shops selling second hand goods so they pat test them before selling them on.

Now presuming they got their employers permission, can the pat tester carry out testing on items that belongs to their own equipment in another small business that the employee owns, and most importantly would it affect anyone's insurance should anything later go up in smoke that had been pat tested by them? Meaning, could the insurers say, no sorry, you're not covered because you were the pat tester of your own equipment?

As Above, in the eyes of the law anyone can do the testing as long as they're deemed competent (someone with relevant knowledge, experience, or training). The insurance company shouldn't have a problem with it, but due to the potential conflict of interest (and the fact that insurance companies will generally try to use any excuse to get out of paying out on claims), it would be better to ask them first.

 

[paulears]

If you are in an office with properly installed IT equipment then PAT is just not needed.

This is exactly the opposite of how it is. If you open up one of the cables you probably have with screw terminals inside - 13A plugs, 4 way cables - that kind of stuff, I'd almost guarantee you find some where the terminals are loose, and probably even the odd one where the earth wire is out - because somebody tripped over the cable and never said anything. Computer power supplies often part-fail making them fail a test, even though they carry on working, and it's not unknown for kettle bases to be full of water!

Test failures are often unpredicted - "but it was ok last year, and not been used" meaning very little.

However - most faults are discovered by the visual inspection rather than the tester. At least that's how it appears to me. Only recently the rules changed so that once a year is no longer the key feature. You can decide that something might be more sensible to test twice a year, but maybe a well used power tool would be better tested monthly. The new system also means people have to think, and not blindly follow a date on a green sticker. The intent is safety. There's no doubt that electrical safety is a reactive process for many - you do it after somebody gets a shock. The sensible system is to prevent the shock in the first place!

 

[fisicx]

I disagree. The plugs I'mm looking right now are sealed units. The only way to get inside is to cut it open with a knife.

I do agree that the onus is in the user testing but the old days of an inspector coming round for the 'Mandatory' PAT are long gone.

It had been a bit of a scam from day one. There never was a law that said you had to have everything tested. It was all dependant on your safety case.

 

[FirstClassVirtualOffice]

I think they keep it vague so the insurers can wriggle out of whatever they need to since there is no clear cut guidelines on time definitions of when to pat test.

But yes, seems a call to insurers would be best.

That was my suggestion to them but I wasn't sure if they could choose who could pat test and be covered.

But you would think there is a clear rule of anyone who has been on a course and pat tests anything then it is covered by their insurance full stop. So long as everything was done and recorded correctly of course.

 

[fisicx]

The problem is the a PAT like the MOT in that it only tells you it passed on the day of the test.

You couild get your man to do the test and the next day some numpty crushes the cable or mashes the plug. If there was a fire or something then the assessor would what before use inspections were carried out. The PAT would be irrelevant.

 

[FirstClassVirtualOffice]

But if you have done what the law and hse etc guided, and say you pat tested annually for averagely used items, then you won't, at least, get done for not pat testing....which is as much as the law requires.

 

[Mpg]

The problem is the a PAT like the MOT in that it only tells you it passed on the day of the test.

You couild get your man to do the test and the next day some numpty crushes the cable or mashes the plug. If there was a fire or something then the assessor would what before use inspections were carried out. The PAT would be irrelevant.

My father does PAT testing. He tested a lead at a site last week that had been "Tested" for a number of years. Only to find the positive and negative leads were reversed. (molded plug) so has been like that since the factory.

Obviously the last guys were just sticker changers.

Good job he's a stickler for doing it right
Based in the North West if anyone needs someone decent an priced correctly.

Shameless I know

 

[CKG]

I used to see a loads of dodgy PAT testing.

We used to work on 3 phase commercial dishwashers and I saw the PAT company guy do his test one day. Plug in machine, press button, pass, apply sticker.

He din't have a clue that the machine was full of contactors that switch various circuits in and out meaning his test was just checking the cable and harness up to the contactors and not worth the paper it was written on.

I've been out to a huge restaurant carvery unit that caught fire. Complete with PAT pass sticker issued the day before. The equipment was a right mess with burnt out wires and heat damage all over it. The tester missed the fault because he didn't understand electrical control systems and how equipment is built.

The industry is a complete con job when it comes to more complex bits of kit.

Try starting a PAT company that charges £80 to properly test one dishwasher and see how far you get. Not very would be my guess.

 

[fisicx]

All of which means the insurers couldn't give a toss about PAT.

It's the assessors who matter not the sticker on the kit.

But if you have done what the law and hse etc guided, and say you pat tested annually for averagely used items, then you won't, at least, get done for not pat testing....which is as much as the law requires.

Except the law doesn't require PAT. It never has. You cannot be prosecuted for not doing the test. What you can be prosecuted for is not ensuring the kit is safe to use - this is whay many second hand/recycling shops wont accept electrical goods.

 

[FirstClassVirtualOffice]

It all sounds like a red tape money making nonsense.

 

[paulears]

Chinese moulded cables can be very hit and miss - not uncommon to pop a poorly made earth connection or even discover there isn't even an earth connected! The visual inspection fails more items than the tester ever does!

 

[draelectricals]

You do know that you don't need to have anything tested. It's up to you as the owner as to the level of testing carried out

http://www.hse.gov.uk/electricity/faq-portable-appliance-testing.htm

It says:

Is PAT compulsory?
No. The law simply requires an employer to ensure that their electrical equipment is maintained in order to prevent danger. It does not say how this should be done or how often.

Please be careful with what your saying here as your making a big bold statement that isn't actually correct. What the HSE actually say is that class 1 electrical appliances must undergo a portable appliance test as part of a maintenance programme and class 2 appliances must at least have a visual inspection.

What the HSE don't stipulate is how often this should be done as this is down to you, and your risk assessment. Now if you don't get appliance testing done just remember you need to have a valid risk assessment in place that states clearly you don't need it doing, baring in mind that a risk assessment calculates risk and if you can say there is no risk whatsoever from equipment that carries elect rickety then you must have some pretty good kit - better than the rest of us.

Try to remember also that the HSE and insurance companies get PAT done so if it wasn't required would they get it done?


Regards,

Richard Ayre
Director, DRA Solutions Ltd

 

[draelectricals]

Can a PAT tester carry out pat testing on their own business equipment?

To answer this question

Yes PAT can be done in house; in a large company where the person doing the testing is an employee and not a director of the business it's completely fine, however

In a small business some insurance companies wouldn't like this, so check, as I know a DJ who did a course, bought the gear, tested his own kit, then when he made the claim it was considered invalid because he had certified his own equipment as being safe.


Regards,

Richard Ayre
Director, DRA Solutions Ltd

 

[paulears]

Then the insurance ombudsman should have been involved. The PAT course is lacking in content, requires no in-depth understanding of what is actually being done, or the potential implications of the equipment. While many PAT companies are exceptionally good, there are some very, very poor ones. The good ones get tarred with the very dirty brush the poor ones generate.

If the DJ did an approved course, at a proper institution, then as he knows his own equipment, and how it gets used - the facts are that his test would probably be a more accurate one than a stranger. Especially with this type of equipment, because not only is poor testing likely to damage the kit, certain design elements of it will guarantee a fail, if the earth clip, for example is connected to the wrong place. Not all metal exposed parts may be bonded to the chassis by design. There are even a few things - cheap smoke machines, for example, that have IEC mains type connectors as part of a remote control circuit. 3 phase motor hoists that have yellow 110V CEEforms for control, not power. I even had experience of one PAT company who cut off dozens of 15A unsleeved pin mains plugs, declaring them all unsafe!

Somebody who paid to go on a course to test their own kit, and bought the equipment to do it sounds like a positive, to me!

Every week I get cold called by 'responsible professional' companies who start by asking me if they can help me comply with the law by testing my equipment at a great price. I always ask them "what law?" and the rubbish they come out with is so funny.

I also note that the changes to the system so labels do not now need a retest date have been kept very quiet by companies providing testing services.

I've looked in my specialist policy and there is no mention of PAT testing, it simply mentions safe condition. That DJ should have taken it further, the insurance company publicised and further action taken. Disgraceful.

When the Government make it a requirement that PAT testing can ONLY be carried out by a proper certified electrician - with a kind of 'Part P' system, like they have done for Bathrooms and Kitchen work - Part T? then we have a system. Until then, testing requires very low skill levels. I read a document that suggested current testing courses are pitched at either Level 2 or below - and frankly, that doesn't even need understanding to be tested, simply 'knowledge of'.

It must be very annoying to be in an industry where tester's skill levels can vary so much - and there is no way of quantifying it. Richard, I assume would be quite pleased if he could state in his advertising Level 3 testers, while Joe Bloggs could only say Level 2 - and he could even justify a price difference. At the moment, a one day course is pitched against a sparks with maybe 30 years practical experience. This is what makes no sense.

The course I went on at the local college was a joke. The certificates were printed before we even arrived. A day wasted. I learned nothing whatsoever. Somebody asked a very sensible question about testing long cables. He was told that if they fail, they are dangerous and should be put out of action. He explained about equipotential zones, disconnect times and the other information that would, in his opinion render them safe, or unsafe when used - but was told no - if they fail, then that is that. We had a laugh in the coffee break. The non-specialists in the room just had black and white answers. He thought it quite ironic that B&Q were selling cable drums that if tested, would fail because of resistance, but are perfectly fine to sell - and of course, use.

Me - I still have great difficulties in the notion that cables are an appliance in themselves. However, everyone tests them now - and at least a fail is a good reason to spend some time tightening screws!

 

[safetynut]

Is PA Testing a legal requirement? Confusing for the consumer driven, by insurance companies.

There is no specific Legal Requirement however, there is a combination of a bunch of legislation that applies to all electrical equipment used in, or associated with, places of work. This includes the smallest piece of electrical equipment.

Here is some Technical jargon

"'Electrical Equipment' includes anything used, intended to be used or installed for use, to generate, provide, transmit, transform, rectify, convert, conduct, distribute, control, store, measure or use electrical energy."

It is clear that there is a requirement to inspect and test all types of electrical equipment in all work situations.

Here is a Senario

Regardless of any legal requirements, the consequences of an electrical fault causing a fire or resulting in somebody receiving an electric shock or even a fatality as a result of failing to maintaining / testing electrical equipment to an efficient state then a prosecution may be in order for the employer.

Here is a Prosecution

A 17 year old collapsed in a pool of water after he moved a plate-warmer that became live because of a badly made plug. He died just days after handing in his notice at xxxxxxxx.

At least four other employees had received electric shocks from the same machine before the tragedy. The plugs earth wire had been disconnected and was lying over the live cable.

PA Tests later showed 11 out of the 56 appliances in the diner were faulty

As PA Testing is a form of checking that equipment is safe, it is a point of good practice.

 

[paulears]

Sometimes you need to read accurate reports by people who know what they are talking about. Clearly here there is some editorial drift with the phrase "The plugs earth wire had been disconnected....". This infers the conductor had been deliberately disconnected, and if so, and allowed to touch the live connection, then this would almost certainly be a criminal offence - negligence causing death. The report comes from the Daily Star, a newspaper not noted for it's fair and scientifically based reporting. The headline was "Boy Fried Alive". The incident took place on august 18th 1998. An inquest jury decided he was unlawfully killed. The person in charge of H&S at the chain did not have enough time to prepare his defence, and the case was dismissed - I can find no trace that the Council appealed the decision.

Although I'm a sharp practice PAT sceptic, appliances DO fail - so testing does make sense. On Saturday I spotted an appliance with the earth disconnected - an audio amp that hummed, and the old stupid practice of disconnecting the earth still lives on. I heard the keyboard player complain his lips tingled when he touched the microphone. The earth was restored quickly.

The premise of testing does make sense. What is wrong is when the testing is flawed.

 

[FirstClassVirtualOffice]

Why would someone want to disconnect the earth cable in a plug?

 

[paulears]

Sound systems have always been very sensitive to what audio people call 'earth loops' - essential where the earth path from point A to point B can be by the audio cables, mains cable earths and building earths. Lighting equipment can use huge amounts of current, and the earth voltage often moves away from the real earth potential - so there can be small voltage differences between grounding points - this means a small amount of current flows, but as it's mains frequency, the sound equipment produces a nasty 50Hz hum - especially guitar amplifiers. Over the years, the really simple (and stupid) 'cure' was simply to disconnect the mains plug earth wire. The rather foolish justification was that the item was still earthed by the audio cable earth, so was safe. In practice, this was never safe because the thin cable was not intended to carry big fault currents, and of course, plugs fall out, get broken, stamped on etc etc. It's frowned on now - and many venues will double check this hasn't been done. It's very common to see earth wire disconnected plugs with nice PAT stickers, so some venues will test each item before they allow it to be plugged in, others don't. It's something we think started in the states, where grounds are kind of optional. Here, it's simply crazy, but I suspect many of us would privately admit to having done it at some point to save the show. Not good - but it still happens.

 

[fisicx]

Please be careful with what your saying here as your making a big bold statement that isn't actually correct. What the HSE actually say is that class 1 electrical appliances must undergo a portable appliance test as part of a maintenance programme and class 2 appliances must at least have a visual inspection.

I can't find that requirement - do you have a reference?

The HSE guidance says it is 'recommended' that class 1 equipment are tested. I'm not saying PAT isn't useful in some cases, but for people working in low-risk environments the HSE says it's just not needed:

http://www.hse.gov.uk/electricity/faq-portable-appliance-testing.htm

http://www.hse.gov.uk/press/2012/hse-pattesting.htm

http://www.hse.gov.uk/myth/july.pdf (from 2007!)

http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/indg236.pdf

 

[safetynut]

From the HSE point of view PA Testing is just not needed in Low risk environments, that sounds great for the small business owner, but insurance companies and local fire enforcement officers tell a different story.

If you are a business owner what does your Risk Assessment say? Is any of the electrical equipment I use considered a hazard?

A business owner selling potted plants and garden furniture from an old timber building (a low risk business?) which needs potable lighting, heating and a small Radio to keep him company in the quiet periods - may take the HSEs quotes.... then one day BOOM there's a fire caused from faulty appliances.

Where would one stand by following the advice from the horses mouth?

A bit extreme I know but equally possible, for me PAT is required for the right Equipment in the right Environment by the Right People and should not be blown apart by scaremongering Scam artists.

 

[paulears]

I suspect the problem really comes from the reliance on a title to provide evidence of safety. We're not looking at making sure we're safe, we're looking at proving that in the case of an insurance claim, we took adequate steps to ensure our responsibilities under law were complied with. If, for example, we were not compliant with the requirements of the Heath and Safety at Work Act, then any employees injured or worse will be firmly our problem. Where insurance exists, it could easily be a get out if the Act had been compromised. If you can test your own equipment competently, all is well. If you can't, then an external company makes sense. The arguments are all to do with the standard and competency of this paid for activity. If testers are incompetent and miss potential danger, or over react and declare safe items unsafe, this does nobody any good.

 

[fisicx]

I agree. What I don't agree with is those offering PAT telling me it's mandatory or a legal requirement or whatever.

I've also checked with my insurance company and would not refuse a claim just because the test wasn't carried out. All they want to see is evidence that user checks were don't before use.

If you want to pay for PAT then do so. But do it for the right reasons not just because someone has wrongly said it's the law.

 

[paulears]

Sadly, the dis-information is just a crafty marketing tool - and any email or phone call just adds another company to my dodgy company list. The trouble seems to be that many really do believe that PAT is mandatory. Something the testing companies obviously wish to spread. The insurance aspect is a red herring. There seems to be no actual evidence of insurers refusing claims and even the often quoted HSE prosecutions are very old and more complex than they appear.

It's becoming a scam - which is a shame for the reputable companies.

 

[lockyer]

Insurers never ask about PAT testing, neither is it a policy condition.

They do sometimes require sight of your fixed wiring testing (i.e the buildings wiring) which legally needs to be done every five years

 

[fisicx]

Insurers never ask about PAT testing, neither is it a policy condition.

Exactly.

It's all a big con by the PAT industry.

 

[draelectricals]

Have a read of page 2 on this document http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/indg236.pdf

Bullet point 4 and you will see clearly stated in a health and safety executive published document: "arrange for equipment that is not double insulated to have a portable appliance test (including leads)..."

Not double insulated means class 1, and class 1 equipment includes computers, monitors, leads, kettles, photocopiers, printers, microwaves, etc. etc.

PAT Testing isn't required by Health & Safety because it's a slang term

Portable Appliance Testing is required by Health & Safety because it is the correct term.

The HSE in an official document states that to ensure the safety of electrical equipment you should get portable appliance testing done.

 

[fisicx]

Page 4 of the same document:

...it is recommended that Class I equipment has a portable appliance test to ensure the earth connection is sound.

Recommended means just that. It is NOT mandatory. It has never been mandatory.

Check the lagal defintion of SHOULD. It does not mean MUST.

I have been doing H&S surveys for years and have checked and double checked my facts. If a client want's to do them that's fine - but they don't have to. You cannot be prosecuted for not doing the test. You can be prosecuted for not ensuring the equipment is safe to use but that's not tha same thing.

 

[KM-Tiger]

It's all a big con by the PAT industry.

Has been for as long as I can remember.

Though I'll bet they are peed off that it's nowhere near as good a scam as Part P.

 

[fisicx]

Has been for as long as I can remember.

Though I'll bet they are peed off that it's nowhere near as good a scam as Part P.

HSE were telling people they didn't need everything testing back in 2007.

Part P?

 

[Root 66 Woodshop]

All businessmen & women need to know is this.

If you have a competent person working within your company they are able to do the PAT test for you with the correct equipment. It doesn't cost a lot.

Plus, with regards to the

"Not double insulated means class 1, and class 1 equipment includes computers, monitors, leads, kettles, photocopiers, printers, microwaves, etc. etc. "

Majority of printers and photocopiers have a power supply similar to laptops. Such products DO NOT need to be PAT Tested at all. It is the PSU that should be tested.