Page Hog !

[debbidoo]

I came on originally to just ensure that Pagehog didn't get tarred with the same brush as other optimisation companies or any of the numerous Google scams out there as we do have a call centre and are aware this can leave us open to critisism and assumption.

Sensible decision - no doubt you've seen the numerous threads on UKBF about companies that scam people by pretending to be Google resellers. Unfortunately there are a lot of charlatans out there, who ruin things for the rest of us.

Good luck Jon, it's a battle I know. Do stick around though, UKBF is fab

 

[EastCoastInteractive]

The issue is that we want to educate people..

..If your site is in Flash then the optimisation at this stage to be honest would be all but pointless. Google can not read any of the text on your flash site so there is very little for them to find relevance in.

Jon, If you consider yourself an SEO professional then you should make it your duty to know the latest in SEO technology and developments.

Read this article http://googlewebmastercentral.blogspot.com/2008/06/improved-flash-indexing.html (from Google Webmaster blog themselves) and then explain to the audience why you are unaware of this development..?

 

[cmcp]

Jon, If you consider yourself an SEO professional then you should make it your duty to know the latest in SEO technology and developments.

Read this article http://googlewebmastercentral.blogspot.com/2008/06/improved-flash-indexing.html (from Google Webmaster blog themselves) and then explain to the audience why you are unaware of this development..?

Poor example - it's common knowledge in general ascii websites will rank better than Flash. Of course there are exceptions, but it's not a thread about swf optimisation, I think Jon made a fairly acceptable comment on the users site.

Thanks for the link, although it does come across like a petty shot at a competitor.

 

[KidsBeeHappy]

To be honest, that may be google's line but in principle it doesn't seem to be working that well. I'm working with a site that has a flash home page, and the home page ranks very poorly on not many terms.

However the internal (flash-less) pages rank better than the home page.

Which i have to say, isn't my typical experience.

 

[EastCoastInteractive]

I take it as read that normal html ranks better than a pure flash site. I'm not here advertising anything - there's no signature links from me. Whether swf spidering is effective or not is not the point.

The point is a thread which is being debated around expertise in SEO, a participant has shown quite clearly they are not aware of year old information that google themselves make publically available, and as such is worth flagging to other readers.

 

[cmcp]

You can optimize SE positions et al yourself for almost free. Check out the link on my profile and have fun.

Regards
Jules

Thank god for jules12345.

Would you also recommend Ideas you can profit from with resale rights?

 

[glasses123]

this all sounds a lot like what lavora marketing do and i would resist and it myself

 

[eventdomain]

So instead of paying £5 for one click (for very competitive keywords), you could be paying £5 for 10 clicks, or 50, or 100. Doesn't that make good commercial sense?

Ahh, but what you suggest is sacrificing main/popular keywords for the cheaper, less succesful ones. It may be cheaper, but less people will type those in, and any check on a keyword tool will confirm this.

Result will be: Less cost, but lower clickthrough. Can't have it both ways, bcos the decent keywords will always be expensive and is how Google makes its money. But easier keywords are small potatoes and won't give the same results as you'll get from popular main keywords. I'll bet that whatever bid you set these keywords up with, within 4 days you'll be paying £1.50 a click for junk keywords. Why? bcos everyones doing what you suggest and that must drive the cost/bids up.

Sorry, but I'd rather spend it down the pub, I'd get more satisfaction from it.

My advice is if people can't do PPC, then either learn to do this yourself for free or else stay away from it and use PFI.

 

[debbidoo]

Ahh, but what you suggest is sacrificing main/popular keywords for the cheaper, less succesful ones. It may be cheaper, but less people will type those in, and any check on a keyword tool will confirm this.

Result will be: Less cost, but lower clickthrough. Can't have it both ways, bcos the decent keywords will always be expensive and is how Google makes its money. But easier keywords are small potatoes and won't give the same results as you'll get from popular main keywords. I'll bet that whatever bid you set these keywords up with, within 4 days you'll be paying £1.50 a click for junk keywords. Why? bcos everyones doing what you suggest and that must drive the cost/bids up.

Sorry, but I'd rather spend it down the pub, I'd get more satisfaction from it.

My advice is if people can't do PPC, then either learn to do this yourself for free or else stay away from it and use PFI.

Not at all I bid a maximum of 5p per keyword, and as you know, once you set a maximum, that's the most you'll pay. As I explained previously, I ran the whole campaign on an average cost per click of 3p. 1500 visitors in 2 months for £45. Average 3p per click, maximum 5p per click.

Using key phrases rather than key words is a good way to keep your costs down. Many of the keyphrases I bid on included the word "Christmas" or "Xmas", which you would expect to be expensive at that time of year, but because I used phrase matching, exact matching and negative matching, and pointed each keyphrase to a very relevant page on the website, my costs were kept down yet I still got 1500 clicks (viewing an average of 3.3 pages per visitor - not just landing and then scooting off within 2 seconds) for £45. Using key phrases, matched using the methods I've just mentioned, means my ads still showed - and I received clicks - for searches for "Christmas gift", "Christmas present", "Christmas ideas", "Christmas dinner", "Christmas decorations", "Christmas crafts" etc etc.

There's no great mystery to AdWords - like you keep saying, you can of course learn to do it yourself. But, like we all keep replying, not everyone has the luxury of having enough spare hours in their day to study the techniques and experiment with them. And that's where professional PPC practitioners have their uses

Clearly we're never going to agree on this - you think you're right, and I know you're wrong - so let's just agree to differ, eh?

 

[eventdomain]

I bid a maximum of 5p per keyword, and as you know, once you set a maximum, that's the most you'll pay. As I explained previously, I ran the whole campaign on an average cost per click of 3p. 1500 visitors in 2 months for £45. Average 3p per click, maximum 5p per click.

hmmm, even with paying 5p a keyword, most websites deal in industries where the keywords are expensive, bcos their popular. Even if you reduce the spend to 3p per click, other bids will knock you down to nothing and reduce your clickthrough a lot - so I doubt this 1500 clicks you claim is possible. And as adwords only alllows 35 characters a line (max of 12 words), you won't have the room for these amazing keyphrases of yours anyway. There isn't enough room in the adwords for good ad copy:

Golden salamanders in the rich blue lakes of Greater London for £10.99

The above is all you will be able to fit into a single adwords advert! Not much room to play with, which makes using lengthy cheap keywords tough enough, but you try slotting in keyphrases and you'll never do it - not the ones you need to keep the costs down.

Another flaw in your argument is the cost of this eg: 3p a click - crap. It will fail and cost you more bcos you won't be the only one using these keyphrases. People will bid against you driving up your 3p to whatever, and you'll have to pay more just to run the ads!

Google will stop the ads running and tell you to increase your bid in your account - and if you don't, you dont get to run the ads.

Eg:

Bid is below first page bid estimate of £2.00

(and that's with a set rate at £0.05 a click), so don't make out this can be done bcos it can't. The rate was set by me and set at Max, so it was fixed - and the bids just drove it up to £2 a click - you lose!

Clearly we're never going to agree on this - you think you're right, and I know you're wrong - so let's just agree to differ, eh?

You don't know jack!

 

[cmcp]

 

[Rusty]

And as adwords only alllows 35 characters a line (max of 12 words), you won't have the room for these amazing keyphrases of yours anyway. There isn't enough room in the adwords for good ad copy:

Wrong, a good marketer will get you a stonking advert within the boundaries of the character limit. I have seen great ads, mediocre ads and down right awful ads. There is definitely a skill to creating great ads, a skill that is well worth paying for. If you have great ads, you will have a much better click through and conversion rate than if you have a mediocre or bad ad. There is so much more to an adwords campaign than picking a few keywords and slapping up just any old text in the ad, you have to make your ad say "PICK ME" and that's where an experienced adwords specialist comes into their own.

Another flaw in your argument is the cost of this eg: 3p a click - crap. It will fail and cost you more bcos you won't be the only one using these keyphrases. People will bid against you driving up your 3p to whatever, and you'll have to pay more just to run the ads!

It obviously escaped your attention but Debbidoo is talking from experience. I have known experienced marketers run very successful campaigns where the cost of the clicks is under 5p and often as low as 2p per click.

You don't know jack!

Wow, you really know how to charm people, don't you?

Kerry

 

[eventdomain]

There is definitely a skill to creating great ads, a skill that is well worth paying for.

but I wouldn't come on a forum to find it or hire it from people whom haven't studied the subject of marketing/advertising at even basic college level. Yet pass themselves off as experts and talk like they have degrees in it, bcos they don't and therefore aren't experts.

The majority offering these dodgy PPC services have never studied Advertising at uni, but know the basics of adwords, so they fancy themselves as experts and think its a way to easy money. Lot's of gullible people out there, and ripe for the taking

I've never heard something so rediculous as an 'Adwords Expert' - it's laughable, crazy and so obviously a con-job and it enrages me when people just get taken in with this crap!

 

[cmcp]

You are aware that some complex adwords campaigns can have thousands of entries, where aside from working out the click through rate, click through rate, cost per impression and all the easy stuff the PPC guy could be working out conversion rates against sales, costs per sale, and tweaking according to profitability?

I think your experience of adwords is setting up small time campaigns, when you forget there are companies out there spending your annual budget in a day.

 

[eventdomain]

You are aware that some complex adwords campaigns can have thousands of entries, where aside from working out the click through rate, click through rate, cost per impression and all the easy stuff the PPC guy could be working out conversion rates against sales, costs per sale, and tweaking according to profitability?

I think your experience of adwords is setting up small time campaigns, when you forget there are companies out there spending your annual budget in a day.

It's probably best you dont try and justify a false profession.

 

[cmcp]

What?! lol! You're tuned to the moon mate.

 

[eventdomain]

What?! lol! You're tuned to the moon mate.

we shall see won't we.

 

[Rusty]

I've never heard something so rediculous as an 'Adwords Expert' - it's laughable, crazy and so obviously a con-job and it enrages me when people just get taken in with this crap!

You clearly have a very biased and tainted view of other people's skill and experience, I am presuming you are speaking from a previous bad experience.

It is however unfair to taint everyone with the same brush. Granted there are loads of cowboys in any expertise, not just web marketing. With a bit of due diligence it is entirely possible to find very skilled PPC consultants, who, although not armed with a college certificate or uni degree, could take your online marketing to new levels of profit.

Frankly it is your loss if you choose to have such an outlook on this. There is no doubt in my mind that a professionally managed campaign will out perform anything that a less experienced person could hope to achieve. Yes, anyone can run an adwords campaign but some of the specialists can turn an ordinary campaign into an extremely profitable campaign. I know which I would rather have.

Kerry

 

[eventdomain]

You clearly have a very biased and tainted view of other people's skill and experience, I am presuming you are speaking from a previous bad experience.

Yup, I don't believe it to be a real or recognised service by any governing body in this country. Ofcourse I'd be biased, but that's my right to be that way, and just bcos I warn others, doesn't mean I've had some bad experience

<<inflammatory comments removed by mod>>

 

[serendipitybusiness]

...people whom haven't studied the subject of marketing/advertising at even basic college level. Yet pass themselves off as experts and talk like they have degrees in it, bcos they don't and therefore aren't experts...The majority offering these dodgy PPC services have never studied Advertising at uni

lol by the time someone has taken a degree in online marketing they are already 3 years out of date. It is all about being ahead of the game which is impossible if your guidance is from someone who has had to spend time gathered the information, putting it together, establishing a curriculum for 3 years worth of study, devising general exams etc.

Unfortunatly things move too fast in this game to enable this to be done effectively so only the basics can be taught which in itself removes the possibility for anyone to come out of university as an expert in this field unless they have done their own studies on the side to bring them upto scratch and one step ahead.

However, the bulk of the real information is behind closed doors, in close circles and is shared between professionals that have established this information based on experiance and analysis of their own experiments along with that of others. The only people that get access to this information are other leaders in the field that in return offer up their information and results of analysis and experiments and that is how you become an expert in this game.

Sorry but your talking absolute tosh here, I do agree that there are a lot of self proclaimed experts that don't have a clue and guess what some of these have just stepped out of uni and think that a degree is their badge of expertise.

However, the proof is always in the pudding and with something like pay per click this can be established quite quickly. When a PPC expert not only saves a company money but also increases their revenue/profit it provides a very valuable service.

 

[eventdomain]

Sorry but your talking absolute tosh here, I do agree that there are a lot of self proclaimed experts that don't have a clue and guess what some of these have just stepped out of uni and think that a degree is their badge of expertise.

Sorry, but you really should think - before you speak. Marketing courses are great bcos they teach 'anticipation of the consumer need' , basics of targeting, sampling of target market, - and that's what people need.

But a Degree does mean you're an expert lol. That's the whole point of the study in the first place, but I'll take someone with a degree over some webmaster kid that thinks SEO, PPC or chasing pagerank is the key to riches It's not!

 

[KidsBeeHappy]

But a Degree does mean you're an expert lol. That's the whole point of the study in the first place, but I'll take someone with a degree over some webmaster kid that thinks SEO, PPC or chasing pagerank is the key to riches It's not!

Do you ever watch the apprentice? all them arrogant folks running around telling us they have degrees, scholarships from sandhurst, top of my class, first class honours, etc.

All that says is that they are good at passing exams. Being able to spot a weakness, identify a solution, manage and implement that solution, is totally different.

Expert, comes from Experience.

Qualifications are about getting the necessary foot in the door, whether or not you're allowed to stay, that depends on skill, not qualifications.

 

[fisicx]

But a Degree does mean you're an expert lol.

No. It means you are good at passing examinations. I have a degree in quantum mechanics but it doesn't make me an expert, all it means is I understood the subject well enough to pass an examination. My step-daughter has a degree in business managment but can't even write a CV.

 

[serendipitybusiness]

Sorry, but you really should think - before you speak. Marketing courses are great bcos they teach 'anticipation of the consumer need' , basics of targeting, sampling of target market, - and that's what people need.

But a Degree does mean you're an expert lol. That's the whole point of the study in the first place, but I'll take someone with a degree over some webmaster kid that thinks SEO, PPC or chasing pagerank is the key to riches It's not!

I do think before I speak, I am not the one lacking in knowledge or logic here! Yes marketing courses are good, I agree. However, as you pointed our yourself they teach the basics of GENERAL marketing. PPC and SEO cannot be learnt via standard marketing methods, the internet is an ever evolving medium that requires quick adaptation, statistical analysis and market knowledge.

Which is best, to anticipate market need or to actually know the market need based on statistical data accumalated and direct experiance? This is the point of PPC and conversion analysis, you actually know which phrases perform more effectively because you monitor and adapt based on results and experiance in this specific area. From this data and EXPERIANCE you are able to predict market need regarding specific marketing methods more effectively.

Most experts in this field study it specifically, day in day out for years, far more years than it would take to get a degree but they are studying this specific area and using upto date information rather than 3 year old study text.

But hey your money your choice as to who you spend it with! I am sure there are plenty of kids that have just stepped out of uni with a marketing degree, that will be happy to experiment with your money on google!! Good luck.

 

[eventdomain]

oh yeah very good lol.

But hey your money your choice as to who you spend it with!

Yep, but it won't be with you

 

[serendipitybusiness]

lol your right there. I have a choice too!

 

[eventdomain]

Do you ever watch the apprentice? all them arrogant folks running around telling us they have degrees, scholarships from sandhurst, top of my class, first class honours, etc.

Oh come on, be fair - now they obviously had something else besides a degree and doubt they got selected on a degree alone.

All that says is that they are good at passing exams. Being able to spot a weakness, identify a solution, manage and implement that solution, is totally different.

But there's a big difference to working in industry as a rated, officially ranked professional, than self-appointed PPC status - and like I keep saying, skill can be learnt to a certain extent, and more than enough to run good PPC campaigns.

But this crazy argument is about whether people want to worry about managing a PPC campaign or not. PPC knowledge is easy to learn, and like the web is too easy to declare oneself as 'expert', but it's not a recognised profession (service yes/not profession) in its own right, and bcos anyone can just set themselves up doing this, it carries little weight and much distrust.

Expert, comes from Experience.

yes it does, a significant amount is needed, I'd say at least 3 years experience is required for expert status.

 

[quikshop]

But a Degree does mean you're an expert lol.

A degree means you understand, experience makes you an expert

 

[eventdomain]

lol your right there. I have a choice too!

That's fine

 

[tiger750]

Hi Jon (welcome to UKBF),

If you are legit then that's a refreshing change. There are far too many scammers fleecing small business with PPC deals. A good friend employed some to do just this and they set up completely daft campaigns that weren't targeted and every ad went straight to the homepage.

One question though, do you geotarget the adverts? I counldn't tell from your post if you did or not.

PAGEHOG are cowboys.

Like so many others, I accepted their trial period and allowed them to advertise on my behalf for 3 months - During this time I called a number of times to advise them that my advert wasn't showing. It would then appear for a day or two and disappear again!

THE REAL ISSUE :- I read their terms of cancellation and sent a cancellation email to cancellations at pagehog .... thinking that was an end to it.

I then received my usual monthly email from them telling me that my account was suspended but would continue to accrue a debt.

I called and asked what they were charging me for - since they had stopped my advert (as requested in my cancellation) - I couldn't get a sensible answer from them. - Again I told the guy CANCELL MY ACCOUNT.

8 months later - I was still getting the email, every month and every month I called and told them my acount was cancelled and closed - their reply .. it's cancelled but still accruing a debt !!! I still couldn't get them to tell me what they were charging for.

Yesterday, I received a letter from Direct Rout Debt Recovery advising me that I am due PAGEHOG £896.95. I called the debt agency and askred them to pass on my response to PAGEHOG ......
They are getting NOTHING from me and please ask them to take me to court ... I will crucify them.

AVOID PAGEHOG AT ALL COSTS - THEY ARE COWBOYS, CON-MEN AND OPERATE A TOTAL SCAM.

YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED

 

[Pagehog]

Given the low level of complaints we receive, I am aware of your company and your case having liased with Direct Route on this case just yesterday.

I have no desire to trade blows on here however with regards the issues you have had with cancelling your account, we have an obligation via our merchant to ensure cancellations are backed up in writing. This is clearly shown in our terms and conditions of service and any client who calls or emails wishing to cancel the service is given clear instruction to cancel in writing. We advise people to send recorded delivery for their peace of mind.

Pagehog is a budget service, many of the systems are automated, unlike our competitors we charge no set up fees of any kind on day one so we are only profitable as a result of clients continuing to work with us over a period of time. The only action we ever request clients to take upon themselves is that in the instance they do see the need to cancel, to provide us with a letter. We even allow people to pause their account when cancelling to avoid accruing further debt if they are in communication with us.

I can provide testimonials from hundreds of happy clients. The clients we find the best results from are the ones who communicate with us and follow our advice on how to continue improving their campaigns over time. Marketing is a process not an event.

However I appreciate due to automation, at some stage here a breakdown in communication has occured.

If you would like to message me your details and a preferred time of contact I'll happily get in touch to see if we can reach a compromise that is mutualy agreeable.

Regards,

Jon