Opening a hot food takeaway with delivery planning permission

[kash]

We are opening a hot food takeaway very soon but stuck with few requests from the council. Would be great if someone can explain the situation.

The property (registered as a commercial property) that use to be a bakery takeaway and delivery. It was closed end of 2020. I enquired with the council last year June 2021 and they said that the property is listed as A5. A5 class allows selling of hot food as takeaway and allows deliveries - which is perfect for us.

Since then we started decorating the property and installed canopy extraction fan system with flue ducting going outside the building (back garden).

Now the council is saying we need to apply for a change of use to Class Sui Generis Takeaway (which since Sept 2021 hot food takeaway A5 moved under this new class). Change of use can take 8 weeks and we were planning to open next month. The council also said we need planning permission for the canopy extraction with air quality assessment. They asked for elevation drawings for the canopy extraction fan system.

Does the A5 not automatically move to the new class?
As the whole property is registered commercial property (terraced property), and the next doors are also commercial properties, does it actually need planning permission for the extractor system?

As I am now dealing with the planning permission retrospectively, I provided photographs instead of elevated drawings but the council said they still need drawings. I spoke to one architecture who said that usually elevated drawings not needed for this unless the building is listed which is not listed.

What is air quality assessment and how do I do one? When googled it seems like its for serious stuff like traffic pollution and large factories.

 

[estwig]

Planning want existing and proposed elevations of the property, drawn to scale, showing the extraction system.

The air quality thing, is about the quality of air the system will be realising, the supplier of the extraction system can help with this.

 

[IanSuth]

Don't annoy the council, talk top the supplier of the extractor and the solicitor you used when you signed the lease (i assume you had all this checked up front by a professional)

This is what happens when you wing it - https://www.readingchronicle.co.uk/...urant-served-warnings-belching-noxious-fumes/
&

Reading takeaway slammed for failing to deal with 'overpowering smell'

A takeaway restaurant has been criticised for failing to deal with a “pungent and overpowering” smell.

www.readingchronicle.co.uk

It can start to get expensive changing things after the event

 

[kash]

Did anyone install canopy extraction system where you had apply for planning permission for it?

 

[WaveJumper]

@kash yes you are going to need to supply what ever the council ask you for or you really are going to hit a brick wall. My advice would be to invite someone from building control to visit have a meeting onsite discuss what you have done intending to do etc etc they will be only to happy to offer advice and you will be getting them onside.

The council have every right to ask for plans surprised they have not also asked for drawings of shop front and signage a lot of councils are pretty hot on that topic too.

 

[fisicx]

As others have said @kash, it doesn’t matter what you read online or what others have done. If your local council need to see proper drawings and requires an air quality test and maybe even a noise assessment that’s what you need to do.

What you don’t want to do is open before permission is granted. That will almost certainly result in you being shut down or fined.

 

[kash]

@WaveJumper, thats a good idea to get a building control person in and discuss, thanks.

We've gone over budget now, so trying to save every little penny if possible by minimising any unnecessary costs (obviously will do anything that's required by council/law and health and safety etc, by borrowing more).

 

[Bob Morgan]

You need an Architect to look after Planning, Building Regulations and Environmental Health - It will be relatively inexpensive and will also halt any Enforcement Action. He can also argue the point on 'Sui Generis' which means Non-Conforming.

 

[estwig]

You need an Architect to look after Planning, Building Regulations and Environmental Health - It will be relatively inexpensive and will also halt any Enforcement Action. He can also argue the point on 'Sui Generis' which means Non-Conforming.

Everything you've said is wrong.

I can't be bothered to argue with randoms on the internet, so I'm not going to explain why.

 

[WaveJumper]

@WaveJumper, thats a good idea to get a building control person in and discuss, thanks.

We've gone over budget now, so trying to save every little penny if possible by minimising any unnecessary costs (obviously will do anything that's required by council/law and health and safety etc, by borrowing more).

Out of interest what council are you dealing with

 

[kash]

Out of interest what council are you dealing with

Ipswich Council

 

[MOIC]

Do what the council have asked.

Did the canopy extraction installers prepare drawings for their own use? If so, you can use those drawings.

Ask the landlord to look into the change of use, that's not for you to do.

Air quality assessment will be influenced by what you're cooking and may impact on other residents nearby.

 

[Bob Morgan]

I'm not going to explain why.

I am grateful to have been spared!

 

[estwig]

Why do people have to air an opinion on planning matters, when they've no idea what they are talking about it. It's always been this way, with anything planning related, it baffles me!

Even the internet when it comes to anything to do with planning, is an endless echo chamber of rubbish. Builders talk crap too. I should be grateful really, if people knew what they were doing, they wouldn't need me!

This is a simple application, existing and proposed elevations showing the extraction flue, manufacturers pdf's detailing the extraction and air quality, and a change of use to sui generis. That's all it takes.

I used to do loads of these all over the country, working from pics, land registry info and an agents listing. I got fed-up of the endless nonsense people would spout at me, about how to do this and what they thought should be done.

 

[fisicx]

@estwig - I think their problem is not so much getting planning permission as the length of time it's going to take (up to 8 weeks). But getting a visit or even going to visit the planning department could smooth the way.

We need some help earlier in the year so I made an appointment and everything was sorted in a couple of days. My homemade drawing was sufficient.

 

[WaveJumper]

There's lots of info too on the Ipswich Councils website plus contact numbers etc as I said get them on side, have a meeting and get your business up and running:

https://www.ipswich.gov.uk/content/what-you-must-do-law

https://www.ipswich.gov.uk/content/food-business-registration

Low Emissions SPD - Practical Guidance for Applicants and Agents | ipswich.gov.uk

The Ipswich Low Emissions SPD provides guidance for developers on managing air quality in new developments to comply with local policies and improve air quality across Ipswich.

www.ipswich.gov.uk

 

[Mark T Jones]

My head is in my hands & I'm groaning.

After the event for you, but to anyone starting a premise-based business - particularly an F & B one - licences, permits & planning are the first things you must sort. I even wrote an article on it.

Over time & over budget – the curse of fit outs.

Over time & over budget – the curse of fit outs. As the only broker wholly dedicated to funding premise fit outs, I am privileged to get a lot of insight to the projects themselves, and into the things that can, and often do, go wrong.

www.linkedin.com

In your case, follow the above - talk to them. Do what is required, and accept that you might be delaying your opening.

 

[estwig]

@estwig - I think their problem is not so much getting planning permission as the length of time it's going to take (up to 8 weeks). But getting a visit or even going to visit the planning department could smooth the way.

We need some help earlier in the year so I made an appointment and everything was sorted in a couple of days. My homemade drawing was sufficient.

It's rare to find a planning department you can actually visit, they don't normally come out, it's just a waste of their time, going to see people spouting random nonsense. It won't speed anything up, they have said they want an application in, so that's what they want.

You've done the same thing here almost everyone does, look for a way to circumnavigate the planning process with a visit and a chat of some sort. You've also made the assumption because a previous matter involving planning was handled in a certain way, they are all handled like that.

Planning is vast, within the LPA there are a dozen or more departments, all of whom specialise in a certain aspect of planning. To make assumptions based on how a previous application was handled, and then try and apply that to another application, is bonkers, but everyone does it.

 

[fisicx]

Maybe different where you are. But I picked up the phone and asked them exactly what they needed. That's when they said a homemade drawing was sufficient for the simple change we wanted to make. On another occasion I asked about some historical documents and they said to come into the office to use the microfiche.

I wasn't suggesting the planning process gets circumnavigated, it was just that a phone call can confirm what sort of drawings and so on are needed.

But it still seems it's the timescale they are concerned about not the actual process.

 

[estwig]

Maybe different where you are. But I picked up the phone and asked them exactly what they needed. That's when they said a homemade drawing was sufficient for the simple change we wanted to make. On another occasion I asked about some historical documents and they said to come into the office to use the microfiche.

I wasn't suggesting the planning process gets circumnavigated, it was just that a phone call can confirm what sort of drawings and so on are needed.

But it still seems it's the timescale they are concerned about not the actual process.

It's a different type of planning application, totally different, a different department within planning, a different set of forms, a totally different criteria. The application will be assessed, against the correct aspect of planning policy.

The timescale is what it is, it can't be circumnavigated, it can only be mitigated by handling the application and the planning department correctly.

I luv planning, it shows so much about human nature, our need to simplify things, group things into simple boxes, to try and understand, is just one example. The terms planning think in, their mindset, their ethos, everything about planning is totally alien to almost everyone, people just can't get their head around it.

 

[SMEMartyn]

This is a fairly common thing that is going to have not be resolved before you open sadly. If you open without the required permission they will walk in and close you down. i do not know what trading hours you will have but if it is going to be for late night refreshment you will need a Personal Licence. I teach that course and one of the requirements is to have a Premises Licence. You will not get that if the planning permission is not sorted out so you really are stuck until this is resolved. You probably have done this already but I would seek some legal advice. As has already been said this is not something that can be ignored. I hope you can resolve this promptly.

 

[WaveJumper]

Also as a slight aside to this councils are very much more "revenue driven" and have been for some time now making up for cuts in central government handouts etc, hence when you do start to look at planning you will notice there seem to be quite a few fees imposed from various departments who will all have a keen "interest" in what you are doing, and unfortunately, looking to see if there is something in it for their department.

Ultimately planning departments are there for a reason and if you try to circumnavigate the process thats when they will come down on you like a ton of bricks. Ive worked on schemes that have taken over five years plus to get through planning so if you get it done in 8 weeks count yourself lucky.

 

[estwig]

Another two posts which are completely wrong, no idea what they are talking about, yet they are happy to spout rubbish like it's gospel.

I really can't be arsed arguing with randoms over this stuff, a quick nibble from me, all planning fees are heavily subsidised by central gov.