Non Dom status

[Michael14]

Hello forum,

Until the latest events with Mr. Sunak's wife, I was not aware that something like Non-Dom even exists.

I started living in the UK in 2016, (to study) and started my employment (and paying taxes) in 2019.

In case I start claiming non dom status, what would be the start year? Is it the year when I came to the UK, when I started paying taxes, or now when I declare it?

I am aware that there are changes after 7 and 14 years, as well as that status ends after 15 years in a 20 year period. This is why it would be nice to know what counts as start date.

Kind regards,
Alex

 

[WaveJumper]

Maybe start here:

Tax on foreign income

Find out whether you need to pay UK tax on foreign income - residence and ‘non-dom’ status, tax returns, claiming relief if you’re taxed twice (including certificates of residence)

www.gov.uk

 

[Gyumri]

Also look up the deeming provisions as you can be deemed to be domiciled for tax purposes even if you are not UK domiciled.

 

[japancool]

Costs £30,000 a year though. And not recommended if you're going to marry a politician.

 

[Newchodge]

So you have large amounts of foreign income? Non-dom status only affects foreign income. You would pay normal UK tax on all your UK income.

 

[Karimbo]

non dom your name too, guy with michal usename signs off as alex,

 

[Karimbo]

So you have large amounts of foreign income? Non-dom status only affects foreign income. You would pay normal UK tax on all your UK income.

that's probably the most innocent intrepretation of it.

It becomes a bit different, if a non-dom person pays starts using irish tax loopholes and uses various shell companies to draw down their income through licensing fees and reducing the profits of any income she receives from this company.

She is the wife of the chanceller of the exchequer, would be very naive if you think she's not making use of that connection for commercial gain.

Ofcourse I have no proof of that, but the very fact that the chancellers wife has such vast wealth outside of the UK irks me a bit. Our chanceller has through proxy huge business interests in India and a country we are in a proxy war with.

 

[japancool]

and a country we are in a proxy war with.

Which country? Russia? Infosys are shutting down their Russian operations.

 

[Karimbo]

Which country? Russia? Infosys are shutting down their Russian operations.

When, after the media backlash? Seems fishy rishi to me.

 

[japancool]

When, after the media backlash? Seems fishy rishi to me.

Fishy? Sunak is not involved with Infosys, and his wife holds less than 1% of its shares. She's not a board member. What does it have to do with him?

Why do you imagine an Indian company worth billions cares what British public opinion is?

 

[Employment Law Clinic]

Fishy? Sunak is not involved with Infosys, and his wife holds less than 1% of its shares. She's not a board member. What does it have to do with him?

Why do you imagine an Indian company worth billions cares what British public opinion is?

Ministerial Code

Ministerial Code setting out the standards of conduct expected of ministers and how they discharge their duties.

www.gov.uk

7.3 On appointment to each new office, Ministers must provide their Permanent Secretary with a full list in writing of all interests which might be thought to give rise to a conflict. The list should also cover interests of the Minister’s spouse or partner and close family which might be thought to give rise to a conflict.

If he's setting these rules, including on non-dom status & how or when it's available, it's a matter of public interest.


Karl Limpert

 

[japancool]

If he's setting these rules, including on non-dom status & how or when it's available, it's a matter of public interest.

Did he change the rules when he came into office?

But even so, what does Infosys closing its Russian operations have to do with Sunak?

 

[Employment Law Clinic]

Did he change the rules when he came into office?

But even so, what does Infosys closing its Russian operations have to do with Sunak?

As I'm not the Permanent Secretary of the Treasury, I have no idea.

But it is a "potential" public interest matter when the office & home of Chancellor is held by an American citizen, and their wife an Indian citizen, particularly in a post-Brexit era, when we aspire for trade deals with both countries.

If all is in order, I'm sure Lord Geidt will exonerate him, but let's not forget, benefit claimants get sanctioned simply for ticking the wrong box...

Karl Limpert

 

[japancool]

But it is a "potential" public interest matter when the office & home of Chancellor is held by an American citizen, and their wife an Indian citizen, particularly in a post-Brexit era, when we aspire for trade deals with both countries.

He's not an American citizen. He had a green card, which means he could legally reside permanently in the US if he so chose.

So... are we saying people with foreign spouses should not be made Government ministers? Or that Government ministers should not marry foreign citizens? How does that square with employment law?

 

[Karimbo]

He's not an American citizen. He had a green card, which means he could legally reside permanently in the US if he so chose.

So... are we saying people with foreign spouses should not be made Government ministers? Or that Government ministers should not marry foreign citizens? How does that square with employment law?

JC, Let it go? You're making it a personal crusade to defend Rishi, replying to every post. Defending Rishi even when you're not sure about the facts,

A US green card holder pays US tax just like US citizens. US does not allow non-doms, If you're a green card holder, you pay US tax on your worldwide income. Even when you're not living in the US. Americans have to file their US income tax and pay US tax wherever they are in the world.

Do Green Card Holders Living in the UK Have To File US Taxes?

Many UK citizens live or work in the US at some point, and they often acquire Legal Permanent Resident status, also known as a Green Card.

brighttax.com

So look at the optics here, the secretary holds a green card and pays US tax on his UK taxpayer funded salary. His wife is a non-dom and lives here and keeps her wealth outside of the UK treasurer.

You're defending this!

I can't see him surviving this, he's going to be out.

 

[WaveJumper]

Have just been reading a few articles on this topic and you just have to wonder what happened to the morals of the politicians in this country maybe its always been like this but now difficult to dodge with all the media groups we now have. I think unfortunately more on this will be coming out in the wash over the coming weeks

 

[Newchodge]

Have just been reading a few articles on this topic and you just have to wonder what happened to the morals of the politicians in this country maybe its always been like this but now difficult to dodge with all the media groups we now have. I think unfortunately more on this will be coming out in the wash over the coming weeks

Do you mean it is unfortunate it is coming out (surely not?) or unfortunate that it is more widespread?

 

[Employment Law Clinic]

So... are we saying people with foreign spouses should not be made Government ministers? Or that Government ministers should not marry foreign citizens? How does that square with employment law?

So far as I've followed this debate, the public are simply saying that those in office should have the same rules & standards applied to them as they apply to others.

In the case of the Chancellor, he applied to the PM, who agreed that the Chancellor be referred to the independent ethics adviser, so an independent, public report will be available in time (perhaps very quickly, if all was above-board, and there's records to prove it).

If all is found to be fair insofar as his household being able to benefit from avoiding UK tax while he applies policies to the majority of the UK residents (who either can't afford to pay for this option, or simply don't have alternative citizenship to call upon), we'll see that when the report is complete.


I don't believe many employment laws typically have a material effect with the appointment of government ministers, or others; never looked into the detail of their appointment, but the obligation to resign when invited to is certainly not a common practice in employment, so some variations are applied.


Karl Limpert

 

[WaveJumper]

Do you mean it is unfortunate it is coming out (surely not?) or unfortunate that it is more widespread?

Perhaps worded that incorrectly I was thinking from the perspective this just shames the (politicians) even further and my lack of respect for these people when I thought it could not get any lower has hit a new low. Hope that makes sense.

 

[Ian J]

In 1947 in the case of Commissioner v. Newman judge Learned Hand claimed:-

"Over and over again courts have said that there is nothing sinister in so arranging one's affairs as to keep taxes as low as possible. Everybody does so, rich or poor; and all do right, for nobody owes any public duty to pay more than the law demands: taxes are enforced exactions, not voluntary contributions. To demand more in the name of morals is mere cant."

As this is a business forum I'm guessing that many if not most of the members do whatever they can to minimize their own tax bills. I certainly do

 

[WaveJumper]

And do you have green card status and hold the chancellor of the exchequers job. It's about transparency and morals as far as I am concerned.

 

[Employment Law Clinic]

In 1947 in the case of Commissioner v. Newman judge Learned Hand claimed:-

"Over and over again courts have said that there is nothing sinister in so arranging one's affairs as to keep taxes as low as possible. Everybody does so, rich or poor; and all do right, for nobody owes any public duty to pay more than the law demands: taxes are enforced exactions, not voluntary contributions. To demand more in the name of morals is mere cant."

As this is a business forum I'm guessing that many if not most of the members do whatever they can to minimize their own tax bills. I certainly do

I agree entirely with the principle, Ian, but not sure it applies equally to the actual Chancellor: when you're setting the rules (for both the country, and your own household), I don't think it can be said that you're so free to be deemed entirely free of sinister motives, unless everything is open & declared - which it perhaps wasn't, but Lord Geidt will no doubt make appropriate comment on.


Karl Limpert

 

[Michael14]

@WaweJumper, thanks!

@Karimbo (regarding your comment on my signature and user name), I know it might be hard to imagine, but some people have name AND surname, and some countries use their surname (or short version of it) as family signature. But very good try to be funny.

@Newchodge I don't have it (foreign income) at the moment, but I would like to know my options in future. I don't have anything against paying taxes and with my medical condition I benefit from NHS (which is funded by taxes), but at the same time I do not see a reason to voluntarily increase my tax presence in one country over the other (where I came from and where my family lives). I do have plans to work with my father in future and I always thought that I would need to pay tax in the UK on that too, that is all.

 

[STDFR33]

I agree entirely with the principle, Ian, but not sure it applies equally to the actual Chancellor: when you're setting the rules (for both the country, and your own household), I don't think it can be said that you're so free to be deemed entirely free of sinister motives, unless everything is open & declared - which it perhaps wasn't, but Lord Geidt will no doubt make appropriate comment on.


Karl Limpert

What is sinister about operating within the law? A law that was in place before you took the position.

And why does transparency have to extend to family?

Personal tax affairs are just that. Personal.

 

[Scubadog]

So what people seem to be saying, is that if you earn money in India, are an Indian resident but live in the UK for a short time, you shouldn't pay indian taxes and instead should line the pockets of the UK tax payer?


Seems a hard line to justify to me.

I'm sure if it was the reversed people would be outraged?

Presumably people will now start disputing any threads on legal tax questions on this forum now?

 

[MOIC]

I'm not referring to the OP. But generally regarding the Chancellor's wife . . . .

Some racism, some envious of the rich, some labour supporters, some not understanding the non-dom legalities, some thinking that Sumak's position is a conflict of interest. . . . . . . .

Any of the above.

 

[Gyumri]

particularly in a post-Brexit era, when we aspire for trade deals with both countries.

What type of trade can be done with India or the US that couldn't be done before with the EU? I don't know of anyone aspiring to do business with a country thousands of miles away.
We're be perspiring to do business rather than aspiring.

 

[Karimbo]

What type of trade can be done with India or the US that couldn't be done before with the EU? I don't know of anyone aspiring to do business with a country thousands of miles away.
We're be perspiring to do business rather than aspiring.

We can buy stuff from new Zealand and Australia now don't you know? We can buy things like wine, eggs, wheat etc. It doesn't matter that the shipping cost 4x as much from our EU neighbours!

 

[Gyumri]

So what people seem to be saying, is that if you earn money in India, are an Indian resident but live in the UK for a short time, you shouldn't pay indian taxes and instead should line the pockets of the UK tax payer?
Seems a hard line to justify to me.

You don't need to justify it because it only applies if certain conditions are met to fall foul of the deeming provisions.

If you have a house in the UK and your children go to school here for example but you personally come and go when you feel like it and return to the UK for more than a set number of days etc then your income derived from the UK is taxed as if you were domiciled here. The same applies to being resident for tax purposes even if you are not resident here!

 

[Gyumri]

buy things like wine, eggs, wheat etc. It doesn't matter that the shipping cost 4x as much from our EU neighbours!

It would surely be cheaper to keep our own chickens and get them to lay their eggs here. A container load of chicken eggs is also asking for trouble.

 

[Mark T Jones]

Have just been reading a few articles on this topic and you just have to wonder what happened to the morals of the politicians in this country maybe its always been like this but now difficult to dodge with all the media groups we now have. I think unfortunately more on this will be coming out in the wash over the coming weeks

I'll throw in a little curved ball here

Sunak let slip his wife's non-dom status to avoid the threat of being made PM

 

[simon field]

I'll throw in a little curved ball here

Sunak let slip his wife's non-dom status to avoid the threat of being made PM

Or just not run for PM?

 

[Mark T Jones]

Have just been reading a few articles on this topic and you just have to wonder what happened to the morals of the politicians in this country maybe its always been like this but now difficult to dodge with all the media groups we now have. I think unfortunately more on this will be coming out in the wash over the coming weeks

I strongly suspect that the moral integrity of politicians is far greater than it has been - perhaps because they are so visible & accountable.

Government is, by its very nature self serving, which easilly leads to being corrupt.

Communism is the solution, except that it doesn't work.

 

[Mark T Jones]

As this is a business forum I'm guessing that many if not most of the members do whatever they can to minimize their own tax bills. I certainly do

A discussion I've had many times with business owners getting all righteous about XYZ BigCorp avoiding tax.

I've yet to meet a business owner who looked for ways to pay the maximum tax. All are seeking ways to legally avoid tax - a good number are illegally evading it in some way.

 

[Kitsunae]

@WaweJumper, thanks!

@Karimbo (regarding your comment on my signature and user name), I know it might be hard to imagine, but some people have name AND surname, and some countries use their surname (or short version of it) as family signature. But very good try to be funny.

@Newchodge I don't have it (foreign income) at the moment, but I would like to know my options in future. I don't have anything against paying taxes and with my medical condition I benefit from NHS (which is funded by taxes), but at the same time I do not see a reason to voluntarily increase my tax presence in one country over the other (where I came from and where my family lives). I do have plans to work with my father in future and I always thought that I would need to pay tax in the UK on that too, that is all.

Non dom (or more technically, the remittance basis) is not just an opt out of Uk tax. You give up some allowances as well as the annual fee, so it only makes sense if you earn somewhere in the six figures, as well as having significant overseas income.

 

[Employment Law Clinic]

A discussion I've had many times with business owners getting all righteous about XYZ BigCorp avoiding tax.

I've yet to meet a business owner who looked for ways to pay the maximum tax. All are seeking ways to legally avoid tax - a good number are illegally evading it in some way.

I agree nobody wants or typically will pay more tax than is absolutely necessary, but this case - of Akshata Murthy - is about the issue of claiming non-dom status - claiming that she does not, or does not intend to, live permanently in the UK. This claim being made at the same time as her family occupied a flat in Downing Street, her children going to school in the UK, and her husband holding one of the highest offices in the land (aspiring perhaps for even more).

If she had no intention of settling in the UK, as non-dom status implies, she had every right to claim non-dom. But the activities of her immediate family don't really support that argument - although it's not for us to judge, only to pass an opinion; Lord Geidt, or perhaps HMRC (... which happens to be controlled by her husband) will decide if the rules to apply for non-dom were appropriate.


The argument here is about tax avoidance, versus tax evasion. And as a spouse of a cabinet minister, any issues of potential conflict of interest.

(Why a spouse is included in the rules, as someone above asked, is not for us to say: it was our Prime Minister, Boris Johnson, that signed that document, in August 2019.)


Karl Limpert

 

[Employment Law Clinic]

I strongly suspect that the moral integrity of politicians is far greater than it has been - perhaps because they are so visible & accountable.

Very moral, to question the views of a jury, having sat only through part of the trial.


Karl Limpert

 

[Newchodge]

Very moral, to question the views of a jury, having sat only through part of the trial.


Karl Limpert

Very fascist for an MP to question the result of a jury trial in this way.

 

[Scubadog]

I'm not referring to the OP. But generally regarding the Chancellor's wife . . . .

Some racism, some envious of the rich, some labour supporters, some not understanding the non-dom legalities, some thinking that Sumak's position is a conflict of interest. . . . . . . .

Any of the above.

Nail, head, hammer, hit.


It always seems to be the same posters ready to criticise anything a tory government does.....often whilst sinoulataneously doing very similar things themselves!

 

[NickGrogan]

Very fascist for an MP to question the result of a jury trial in this way.

In general? or in this specific case only?