NMW Compliance Officer - How much time & information can they demand?

[Mr D]

Just out of curiosity, we don't have a dress code but we do insist that employees don't wear open toed shoes, any normal shoe will do but they must be fully enclosed, Should we be providing them?

Interesting.
There will be a few people who do not have fully enclosed toe footwear.

You willing to pay for them to have such footwear?

 

[BustersDogs]

Can I just clarify? Employers have to bear the cost of employee clothing if they need something sensible for their job, even if not a uniform, if to buy it themselves would take them below minimum wages, but as self-employed, then a company owner, I can't claim for the clothing needed for when I do the same work as them.

So in effect my company could potentially be paying for walking boots for my staff, but couldn't claim for my own walking boots? Also how long would a purchase be spread over? Buying a £60 pair of boots this week might well take someone below minimum wage, but they last minimum of 6 months, which would only be £2.50 a week, and therefore wouldn't take them below it?

 

[lesliedocherty]

Can I just clarify? Employers have to bear the cost of employee clothing if they need something sensible for their job, even if not a uniform, if to buy it themselves would take them below minimum wages, but as self-employed, then a company owner, I can't claim for the clothing needed for when I do the same work as them.

So in effect my company could potentially be paying for walking boots for my staff, but couldn't claim for my own walking boots? Also how long would a purchase be spread over? Buying a £60 pair of boots this week might well take someone below minimum wage, but they last minimum of 6 months, which would only be £2.50 a week, and therefore wouldn't take them below it?

Good point, does seem a bit of a minefield

 

[Newchodge]

Can I just clarify? Employers have to bear the cost of employee clothing if they need something sensible for their job, even if not a uniform, if to buy it themselves would take them below minimum wages, but as self-employed, then a company owner, I can't claim for the clothing needed for when I do the same work as them.

So in effect my company could potentially be paying for walking boots for my staff, but couldn't claim for my own walking boots? Also how long would a purchase be spread over? Buying a £60 pair of boots this week might well take someone below minimum wage, but they last minimum of 6 months, which would only be £2.50 a week, and therefore wouldn't take them below it?

Someone stated above that NMW and tax law are not the same, even though they are both within HMRC! Scalloway mentioned this.

If you require, or the job requires an item of clothing that the employee does not possess, and the employee has to pay for it, you may fall foul of NMW rules. If the (monthly paid) NMW employee pays £60 for a pair of boots in month 1, their month 1 wages are £60 down. That £60 must be made up by the end of month 2 to comply with NMW.

It is important to remember that this is all about NMW and nothing else. If you bought £60 boots for an employee earning £10 per month over NMW and they repaid you @ £10 per month, they would still have received NMW so it should not be a problem.

 

[Mr D]

Can I just clarify? Employers have to bear the cost of employee clothing if they need something sensible for their job, even if not a uniform, if to buy it themselves would take them below minimum wages, but as self-employed, then a company owner, I can't claim for the clothing needed for when I do the same work as them.

So in effect my company could potentially be paying for walking boots for my staff, but couldn't claim for my own walking boots? Also how long would a purchase be spread over? Buying a £60 pair of boots this week might well take someone below minimum wage, but they last minimum of 6 months, which would only be £2.50 a week, and therefore wouldn't take them below it?

Reducing food bill by £60 that week? Reducing mortgage payment by £60 that month? Reducing petrol use by £60 that week / month?
Usually when buying footwear I am paying the seller up front and it costs there and then, not over 6 months.

With a better quality walking boot then maybe lasting more than 6 months.

Self employed - you can buy clothing specifically for work?

 

[SunshineSheila]

Are there many people that dont own black or dark clothes?

 

[Newchodge]

Are there many people that dont own black or dark clothes?

Yes. Many students will only have T shirts with slogans/designs on them. Many people will not own dark clothes.

 

[Mr D]

Are there many people that dont own black or dark clothes?

I have just the one plain black t-shirt. Most of my t-shirts have logos or images on them. Would anyone mind if to work I wore a black t-shirt with ghost rider image on it - skulls etc?
I don't own any other plain dark t-shirts.

 

[SunshineSheila]

We have aprons that cover the whole chest area, so slogans and pictures there wouldn't been seen anyway. When staff come in for their interview, 98% arrive in black clothes. They may have purchased for the interview, but they do already own at time of employment offer? So can they not wear these for work going forward, and not be below NMW?

 

[Mr D]

We have aprons that cover the whole chest area, so slogans and pictures there wouldn't been seen anyway. When staff come in for their interview, 98% arrive in black clothes. They may have purchased for the interview, but they do already own at time of employment offer? So can they not wear these for work going forward, and not be below NMW?

How many such clothes do you want them to wear in a week?

Say I work 3 days in a row, wear the same top 3 days in a row?

 

[Newchodge]

How many such clothes do you want them to wear in a week?

Say I work 3 days in a row, wear the same top 3 days in a row?

If you read an earlier post she was upset that full timers working long shifts wanted 3 tops otherwise they couldn't wash them. Are these people in the real world?

 

[Mr D]

If you read an earlier post she was upset that full timers working long shifts wanted 3 tops otherwise they couldn't wash them. Are these people in the real world?

Minimum I've ever had is 2 tops and a pair of trousers - a weekend installation turned into almost 2 weeks. Washing clothes in a bucket every night then leaving them to dry. Very much emergency method.

For normal purposes I'd expect at least a couple of trousers and say 5 t-shirts. Didn't use to do washing every day.

 

[Bushman]

Interesting.
There will be a few people who do not have fully enclosed toe footwear.

You willing to pay for them to have such footwear?

That's what I was asking, if we should be providing it then yes quite happy to do so. But as we pay well above the minimum wage it seems like it doesn't apply in this case.

 

[SunshineSheila]

If you read an earlier post she was upset that full timers working long shifts wanted 3 tops otherwise they couldn't wash them. Are these people in the real world?

When did I say I was upset? From all your posts it is clear you do not live in the real world. I can't see many businesses would want to pay for your 'expertise' after reading your posts on this thread.
You sound like you have had a privileged life, and never had to actually face real issues financially, or work with a business without a infinite budget.

As I have said, and others have agreed with, actually having run businesses themselves, I started providing uniforms, but when you order £1k in uniform month one, and by month 3 you have a handful of tops with holes in left, you start to wonder how often you can keep ordering, as much as you would like to, as a bankrupt business cannot pay any wages...

I really would like sensible HELPFUL answers, not the judgemental drivel you force onto the threads.

I would like to find a solution which is fair for everyone.

 

[Newchodge]

We started with uniforms provided, but for full timers doing long shifts they ended up wanting 3 each or they just wouldn't wash them.

That is living in the real world?

 

[The Byre]

When did I say I was upset? From all your posts it is clear you do not live in the real world. I can't see many businesses would want to pay for your 'expertise' after reading your posts on this thread. You sound like you have had a privileged life, and never had to actually face real issues financially, or work with a business without a infinite budget.

Now you are just being insulting. You came to the forum, asking for advice, you got the right answer again and again - but it was not the advice you wanted to hear.

Well, how about taking some advice from me? I run and/or am partner in several companies. In the past I have run all sorts of enterprises such as music shows, PA and lighting companies, music production companies, a market research company, a trade news agency - and most of these companies made a profit. Some made very little profit and were subsequently closed and one, the news agency, was sold in 1999 for a largish sum that has set me up nicely, so that I can launch life-style companies and do things I believe in.

I do know what it means to turn a profit and I do know how hard that can be, so perhaps you might like to stop listening to the answers that you hope to hear and just listen to the real answers.

I am sure that you are a decent employer and that you are trying at all times to do the right thing for your staff. But despite good intentions, you found yourself possibly falling foul of NMW laws. That is like speeding in a 30mph zone, because you did not realise that it was a 30mph zone. Ignorance of the misdemeanour unfortunately does not mitigate! You get fined anyway!

But let's look at NMW and indeed, let's look at all things wage-related. I am not the best paid person in my company. That honour falls to one of the youngest members of staff. She gets well paid because she turns the most profit. It is that simple!

The age of the low-skilled, low-wage employee is rapidly coming to an end. The gofa, the work-experience gig, the unpaid 'volunteer', the minimum wage flunky are becoming creatures of the past. We all have to structure our businesses in such a way, that we have fewer staff who are profit oriented and better paid.

If you are running a restaurant, that means more automation, fewer dishes, more self-service and better food at higher prices. If you are running a garage, it means having the best and latest machines and diagnostic software that allow staff to turn over repair jobs at a faster rate. When I was running a news agency, we partially automated article writing. If you are manufacturing widgets, you'd better have the fastest and most modern Widgematic with all the latest software!

I shall not restate the excellent advice already given about the knotty problem of paying NMW and uniforms or specific items of clothing. The law is the law and we all have to comply with the law. No exceptions! We may not always like it, but them's the apples on the tree!

Because the age of low wages is rapidly coming to an end, you may like to reassess the structure of your business and if you need help with that task, I and other here would be only too happy to help you.

But please do not be rude to Cyndy. Your remarks are so dreadfully wide of the mark, that you may like to consider an apology. She is a hard working person who goes out of her way to help others.

 

[SteveHa]

You sound like you have had a privileged life, and never had to actually face real issues financially, or work with a business without a infinite budget.

Nope, I just happen to work in an industry that is very much led by legislation, and have an obligation (punishable with penalties if I fail) to give correct and legal advice. I take the same view of these forums. Any response I give will be in accordance with what the law actually is, and not what people think it should be.

 

[Mr D]

When did I say I was upset? From all your posts it is clear you do not live in the real world. I can't see many businesses would want to pay for your 'expertise' after reading your posts on this thread.
You sound like you have had a privileged life, and never had to actually face real issues financially, or work with a business without a infinite budget.

As I have said, and others have agreed with, actually having run businesses themselves, I started providing uniforms, but when you order £1k in uniform month one, and by month 3 you have a handful of tops with holes in left, you start to wonder how often you can keep ordering, as much as you would like to, as a bankrupt business cannot pay any wages...

I really would like sensible HELPFUL answers, not the judgemental drivel you force onto the threads.

I would like to find a solution which is fair for everyone.

Newhodge and Stelacca are each one of the most helpful, knowledgeable posters regarding certain aspects of business. I'd suggest reading anything they type.
I'd hire them services in a heartbeat if I needed their help.

Rather than a solution which is fair for everyone how about a solution that meets your legal requirements?

 

[SunshineSheila]

She has been rude, and judgemental from her first post. Others have been very helpful, I was looking for information not judgement.

 

[Mr D]

She has been rude, and judgemental from her first post. Others have been very helpful, I was looking for information not judgement.

Perhaps a forum for consumers would have been better for you.
Less helpful and more likely to agree with you.

 

[Higgsy]

She has been rude, and judgemental from her first post. Others have been very helpful, I was looking for information not judgement.

Problem is, a lot of people can most likely see your point. But the law is as it is, and if someone with experience tells you the facts, sometimes they can't be changed. In a forum based discussion words can come across how they may not have intended too.

That being said;

If you are not strict in terms of your clothing policy. Maybe don't mention dark clothes at all, say the staff can wear what they like, and ensure you have robust aprons that they wear over the top of their own clothes. Then you are out of the predicament of them wearing dark clothes. Worst case, if you want them in black tops, unfortunately its buy online, I did a quick search and you can get 50 of different sizes for £80. (there are more than likely cheaper options).

As for them wanting details, give them, don't worry about what they are going to say, face that as it happens. As long as you have your HR records as to why they were dismissed, the NMW compliance officers will put them together. Treat them nice and they will be nice back.

 

[SunshineSheila]

Thank you Higgsy, I appreciate that I have been in the wrong with my preferred uniform requests. And I take on board the advice given, it was the way some posters wrote their disgust with me. I stand by a certain poster being rude & judgemental.

I just wanted some polite facts, so I could prepare myself for what may come. HMRC now have all employee addresses, and a few have contacted me to say they have received letters.

The calls have been general conversations about pay, no fixation on uniform, it was mentioned, but only as much as having payslips, hours & pay as expected, deductions & final pay including holiday (where relevant) P45s P60s etc
I'm sure some will ring in with a tongue of venom, but whether that will be taken as fact with most having fair reports on how I pay, only time will tell.
Hopefully this will be the end of the matter. Possibly they will make the uniform issue an official warning, and most hopefully there will be no fine, as for this year being the way it has been, that would be the end of business for me. Which would be as devastating for myself as it would be to my employees.

 

[lesliedocherty]

Newhodge and Stelacca are each one of the most helpful, knowledgeable posters regarding certain aspects of business. I'd suggest reading anything they type.
I'd hire them services in a heartbeat if I needed their help.

Rather than a solution which is fair for everyone how about a solution that meets your legal requirements?

Don't agree, ive came across a few posts where Newchodge was out of order.

 

[BustersDogs]

Reducing food bill by £60 that week? Reducing mortgage payment by £60 that month? Reducing petrol use by £60 that week / month?
Usually when buying footwear I am paying the seller up front and it costs there and then, not over 6 months.

With a better quality walking boot then maybe lasting more than 6 months.

Self employed - you can buy clothing specifically for work?

I have been told I may put in my walking boots, but that hmrc might throw them out if I ever get an audit because I apparently have to wear shoes to work.

Boots only have a certain amount of miles in them - if you buy two pairs and alternate that can sometimes be stretched out a bit, but walking 15 miles a day means walking boots won't last as long as someone walking 15 miles a week.

I never ask my staff to wear anything in particular, this job can be done in normal footwear like trainers. Some of them choose to wear walking boots, but my point was why can they get them paid for through work and I cannot.

 

[Mr D]

I have been told I may put in my walking boots, but that hmrc might throw them out if I ever get an audit because I apparently have to wear shoes to work.

Boots only have a certain amount of miles in them - if you buy two pairs and alternate that can sometimes be stretched out a bit, but walking 15 miles a day means walking boots won't last as long as someone walking 15 miles a week.

I never ask my staff to wear anything in particular, this job can be done in normal footwear like trainers. Some of them choose to wear walking boots, but my point was why can they get them paid for through work and I cannot.

So whats the difference between you claiming for boots and staff claiming for boots?

Yes know what you mean about walking 15 miles a day in boots, used to work logistics where 15 miles would be a light shift.

 

[Newchodge]

but my point was why can they get them paid for through work and I cannot.

NMW rules are separate legislation from income tax. A self employed person can only claim for things bought exclusively and necessarily for the business. If the job can be done in trainers then it is not necessary to buy walking boots, so not claimable. The trainers aren't claimable as they are dual use - business and private.

If you pay for walking boots for your staff, because you want them to look professional or choose to have rules that they must wear walking boots, you can claim that as an expense against your tax.

 

[SteveHa]

For employees, it's wholly, exclusively and necessarily. For self-employed, it's just wholly and exclusively.