New business loan

SunnyK

Free Member
Feb 20, 2020
13
1
Hi All,

So I’m in the process of setting up my business banking with NatWest and it's taken a month to even get any contact with them. I called them to discuss leading to get some initial working capital circa £100k. Now my business is sound it’s going to be a new bar/ restaurant concept in an amazing location with definite prospect and an expected turnover of £80-100k a month turnover.

However after talking through my idea to the chap on the phone, he said they are not taking on new business only helping out existing ones. This is a bit of a kick in the balls, as I assume this will be the same with most banks, and Mark Jones has also confirmed this in a different post.

An angel investment company called Uncapped also turned me down for the same reason.

Can anyone help please.

Cheers

SK
 

intheTRADE

Free Member
Apr 14, 2019
737
303
I think you are going to struggle to be honest securing that level of funding in these times, especially in the hospitality sector

How have you arrived at that estimated monthly turnover when you haven't even opened your doors yet and the rest of England's pubs are just reopening theirs today with no idea what the future is going to look like
 
  • Like
Reactions: ethical PR
Upvote 0

Aniela

Free Member
Mar 28, 2020
934
145
I think you are going to struggle to be honest securing that level of funding in these times, especially in the hospitality sector

How have you arrived at that estimated monthly turnover when you haven't even opened your doors yet and the rest of England's pubs are just reopening theirs today with no idea what the future is going to look like

Have to agree with intheTRADE with this one.

It's going to be virtually impossible to get a lender/investor to give you 100k in a industry that has been one of the hardest hit and one that the near future is extremely uncertain. Unless you're putting your home on the line or something.

1 million revenue in that industry, in your first year is quite a large sum. So would be interested to know how you got to that figure also.

Have you considered that for the next few months at least, you could be in a situation where the business isn't even allowed to operate normally?
 
Upvote 0

Mr D

Free Member
Feb 12, 2017
28,924
3,630
Stirling
If your concept is new then you'll have worked out how many people you can serve in a time period - is the business viable under new distance rules?
Plenty of pubs and bars may find they aren't making anything like as much money as last year. And you want to enter the market now with zero data on use?
 
Upvote 0
Jun 26, 2017
2,713
1,012
How much of your own money do you have for the project to add to the £100k you want to borrow?

Startup loans of that size are very unlikely in any industry, never mind hospitality! Don’t want to be negative but it’s a rough industry to get into at the best of times, Covid aside. Your projections would be optimistic for an established business...not sure for a start up coming in cold...
 
  • Like
Reactions: nelioneil
Upvote 0
There are currently 4 types of lender out there:

  1. Closed for the duration (a few won’t be re-opening)
  2. Only offering CBILS
  3. Open for business - with far less liberal criteria than in February (despite what they may tell you)
  4. Scumbags who are abusing the situation to push people into very onerous facilities - often under banners like ‘Covid loans’
The final category might be described as a tiny but visible minority.

You can expect the first 3 categories to slowly relax as lockdown eases

Any lender will be expecting your plan to focus heavily on social distancing and impending recession.

Mindful of the above, it’s actually a pretty good time to be thinking about opening a restaurant

Competitors struggling with lack of revenues
Lots of cheap equipment
Good potential to negotiate rents
Rates relief
Staff availability

Obviously, as as ever the case, you do need a very good understanding Of who your customer is.
 
Upvote 0

Chris Ashdown

Free Member
  • Dec 7, 2003
    13,381
    3,001
    Norfolk
    Presumably you sent the bank a full business plan of the whole operation including your own and other staff experience in that sector, cash flow projections and how much you were putting to the enterprise

    Banks and other lenders will want to fully check that you have considered all possibilities, have the experienced team to carry it out and are risking your own money with theirs
     
    Upvote 0

    LanceUk

    Free Member
    Jan 8, 2018
    127
    41
    You have to remember, that the poeple who give the OK to a business (or any other) loan are credit risk officers (also called underwriters in the retail/domestic/small corp end of the market).They are NOT business people, nor do they pretend to be.

    They will take all the information you give them and put them into a computer which augments your data with historical, credit agency, current martket data, etc, to come up with the following:
    • Probability of Default (sort of your credit rating): What is the probability that you/your new business will default over a time horizon (for large corps, it was 1 year from memory - no idea about the SME/retail end of the market).
    • Exposure at default: Over the next 12 months, should you/your company default, what will be the maximum you/you company will owe?
    • Loss given default: What will be the total loss should you default in the next 12 months? That is usually more than the exposure as they have to factor in insovlency, recovery costs, etc, They then reduce it by any solid collateral put up by you and they have senior claim to it; in which case it reduces the loss given default by the hair-cut valuation of the collateral.
    If you multiply these, you will get an figure called the expected loss. Then they have to figure out the unexpected loss, which is basically to cover for inaccuracies of the quantitative and statiscial models and any porkies/over optimistic projections you give them that they have not been able to correct.

    Bear in mind, they use statistical models (and I would guess by now, some nueral network based artifical intellifence, which is a form of applied probability) to the information you give them augmented with the other data mentioned above. They will also perform a scenario analysis, such as what if you only achieve half your projected revenue; what if the value of your collateral collapses, etc. and weight these depending on your application (their models may tell them that typically, applicants in your industry over-estimate their revenue by 100%, for example). They will assess you business plan (possibly), but they are looking more obvious lunacy in a business plan rather than assessing whether your plan really provides that much of a USP that you will get your revenue. They may pass off to an industry expert for an assessment (which you will be slugged for as part of the application process). They are not business people - they are credit risk officers.

    Re Natwest, I don't think they are the only ones not issuing new (small/medium) business debt during COVID-19.. way too risky.. especially that amount and that industry. If you feel you have that good an idea to generate that much revenue and a healthy profit margin, my advice would be to find a good commercial/business finance broker who fronts multiple financial institutions and run your idea past that person. They will be able to give you first hand knowledge about your different options and different institutions that may be able to help... it may not be a bank at all.

    (fair warning.. I know a bit about the credit risk assessment process for large corporates and various market structures.. I have never worked in the retail/SME end of the market.. and I have been out of working in the credit risk area for a few years now. Also, the above is a very high level overview of what goes on.. credit risk is far more detailed and there are other factors they have to take into account).
     
    Last edited:
    • Like
    Reactions: UKSBD and AllUpHere
    Upvote 0

    nelioneil

    Free Member
    Jan 22, 2013
    789
    136
    Even in a booming economy no one is going to lend £100k to a new business, even with substantial collateral.

    How much are you investing is something a prospective lender would want to see and proof of funds before they may even consider stumping up their money.
     
    Upvote 0

    SunnyK

    Free Member
    Feb 20, 2020
    13
    1
    Hi,

    I’m actually a Banking professional with 20 years experience. Also note that Basel II was my speciality, and I worked in Credit Risk as a senior BA.

    ROI is more likely to be of interest to them.

    Cheers

    Sunil

    You have to remember, that the poeple who give the OK to a business (or any other) loan are credit risk officers (also called underwriters in the retail/domestic/small corp end of the market).They are NOT business people, nor do they pretend to be.

    They will take all the information you give them and put them into a computer which augments your data with historical, credit agency, current martket data, etc, to come up with the following:
    • Probability of Default (sort of your credit rating): What is the probability that you/your new business will default over a time horizon (for large corps, it was 1 year from memory - no idea about the SME/retail end of the market).
    • Exposure at default: Over the next 12 months, should you/your company default, what will be the maximum you/you company will owe?
    • Loss given default: What will be the total loss should you default in the next 12 months? That is usually more than the exposure as they have to factor in insovlency, recovery costs, etc, They then reduce it by any solid collateral put up by you and they have senior claim to it; in which case it reduces the loss given default by the hair-cut valuation of the collateral.
    If you multiply these, you will get an figure called the expected loss. Then they have to figure out the unexpected loss, which is basically to cover for inaccuracies of the quantitative and statiscial models and any porkies/over optimistic projections you give them that they have not been able to correct.

    Bear in mind, they use statistical models (and I would guess by now, some nueral network based artifical intellifence, which is a form of applied probability) to the information you give them augmented with the other data mentioned above. They will also perform a scenario analysis, such as what if you only achieve half your projected revenue; what if the value of your collateral collapses, etc. and weight these depending on your application (their models may tell them that typically, applicants in your industry over-estimate their revenue by 100%, for example). They will assess you business plan (possibly), but they are looking more obvious lunacy in a business plan rather than assessing whether your plan really provides that much of a USP that you will get your revenue. They may pass off to an industry expert for an assessment (which you will be slugged for as part of the application process). They are not business people - they are credit risk officers.

    Re Natwest, I don't think they are the only ones not issuing new (small/medium) business debt during COVID-19.. way too risky.. especially that amount and that industry. If you feel you have that good an idea to generate that much revenue and a healthy profit margin, my advice would be to find a good commercial/business finance broker who fronts multiple financial institutions and run your idea past that person. They will be able to give you first hand knowledge about your different options and different institutions that may be able to help... it may not be a bank at all.

    (fair warning.. I know a bit about the credit risk assessment process for large corporates and various market structures.. I have never worked in the retail/SME end of the market.. and I have been out of working in the credit risk area for a few years now. Also, the above is a very high level overview of what goes on.. credit risk is far more detailed and there are other factors they have to take into account).
     
    Upvote 0

    SunnyK

    Free Member
    Feb 20, 2020
    13
    1
    Hi,

    i shouldn’t have said new concept, it was 03:00 when I posted.

    I have been extremely conservative with my turn over calculations.

    Cheers

    sunil


    £80k-£100k turnover: is that adjusted for Covid social distancing?

    Not all bars are bothering to open, because they've done their sums and worked out they will be operating below break even.

    are there any 'new concepts' in the bar business?
     
    Upvote 0

    Porky

    Free Member
  • Dec 27, 2019
    703
    2
    425
    Staffordshire
    Hi,

    i shouldn’t have said new concept, it was 03:00 when I posted.

    I have been extremely conservative with my turn over calculations.

    Cheers

    sunil

    Hi Sunny

    No idea how sound your business plan is but if you worked in credit risk for 20yrs then you understand it’s not ROI they are concerned with its ability to repay the debt and the debt risk itself.

    If you are putting a good chunk of your own money up, you have security and can secure the loan against your home, then you shouldn’t have much trouble getting £100k even in this climate

    If you are not then why should someone else shoulder the risk for your dream? Equity is your other option but you need a bloody good business plan and an exit strategy for investors
     
    Upvote 0

    Aniela

    Free Member
    Mar 28, 2020
    934
    145
    Hi,

    I am able to offer SEIS to investors as my company fulfils the criteria. Also An investor IS going to be interested in ROI.

    Cheers

    sunil

    As Gordon just stated, your threat title is 'New Business Loan' and now you're talking about investors?

    Also, you're saying that £80-100k a month for turnover is conservative... for a bar/restaurant that isn't opening with a new concept... in one of the worst times in recent history for bars/restaurants.

    I'm not sure you've thought things through correctly.
     
    Upvote 0

    SunnyK

    Free Member
    Feb 20, 2020
    13
    1
    Hi All,

    Rightio, let me give you guys a little more information.
    - The venue is amazing, it’s under a new build with over 500 flats.
    - It’s opposite a mainline train station.
    - There are many offices within 1/4 of a mile.
    - There is little or no direct competition in the area.

    My fitout will be covered by a lease rental agreement, however being prudent I want to ensure that I have enough working capital to cover me for my rent deposit, legal fees, wages, etc. Hence why I wanted a loan, now to be honest I’m sure that I could pay this back rather quickly.

    As banks are being c*nts at the moment to new businesses, alternatives would be to offer an investor the SEIS scheme. Does this make sense?

    Cheers

    Sunil
     
    Upvote 0

    Aniela

    Free Member
    Mar 28, 2020
    934
    145
    Hi All,

    Rightio, let me give you guys a little more information.
    - The venue is amazing, it’s under a new build with over 500 flats.
    - It’s opposite a mainline train station.
    - There are many offices within 1/4 of a mile.
    - There is little or no direct competition in the area.

    My fitout will be covered by a lease rental agreement, however being prudent I want to ensure that I have enough working capital to cover me for my rent deposit, legal fees, wages, etc. Hence why I wanted a loan, now to be honest I’m sure that I could pay this back rather quickly.

    As banks are being c*nts at the moment to new businesses, alternatives would be to offer an investor the SEIS scheme. Does this make sense?

    Cheers

    Sunil

    That makes sense. Thanks for clarifying.

    If you've worked in Credit Risk like you say you have, you would understand banks are not being c*nts to new businesses.

    Someone with no experience in the industry (it appears?), expecting £80-100k a month in one of the worst times in recent histories in that industry... is going to get laughed at straight from the outset for investment. Even with SEIS.

    I don't think you've run your numbers correctly and properly grasped what you're proposing.
     
    Upvote 0

    Aniela

    Free Member
    Mar 28, 2020
    934
    145
    It also appears, from your other thread on this forum, you've been looking at the space since Feb? Unless it's another location, I do apologise.

    The place has been empty for 5 months in such a prime spot that you expect 100k a month in? I would start questioning why that is, if it's the same place you discussed back in Feb.
     
    Upvote 0

    Aniela

    Free Member
    Mar 28, 2020
    934
    145
    Hi,

    Okay, I’ve actually run my turnover figures with friends in the industry and my accountant, my premises will be open for breakfast, lunch and dinner IE, It will be open from 07:00 - 11:00.

    Cheers

    Sunil

    You need to ignore your friends and sack your accountant.

    There's no logic behind anything so far.

    Is this space the same space you were considering back in Feb?
     
    Upvote 0

    Mr D

    Free Member
    Feb 12, 2017
    28,924
    3,630
    Stirling
    That makes sense. Thanks for clarifying.

    If you've worked in Credit Risk like you say you have, you would understand banks are not being c*nts to new businesses.

    Someone with no experience in the industry (it appears?), expecting £80-100k a month in one of the worst times in recent histories in that industry... is going to get laughed at straight from the outset for investment. Even with SEIS.

    I don't think you've run your numbers correctly and properly grasped what you're proposing.

    While not necessarily agreeing with the premise, I can certainly understand the banks reluctance.

    Offer £900k up front of his own money and just need a £100k secured loan? Maybe.
    Risky for him but not for the bank.

    If banks are bad he'll have incredible fun with investors. Much harder questions for one thing.
     
    Upvote 0

    Mr D

    Free Member
    Feb 12, 2017
    28,924
    3,630
    Stirling
    Hi,

    Okay, I’ve actually run my turnover figures with friends in the industry and my accountant, my premises will be open for breakfast, lunch and dinner IE, It will be open from 07:00 - 11:00.

    Cheers

    Sunil

    Which then means considerable staff numbers.
    Plus of course lots of cleaning. Can't say I've come across many bars that are busy for breakfast prior to April.
    Pub by the railway station, across the road from it almost, in Leicester. Breakfast there a couple of times, been the only customer in. Most don't even appear to open for breakfast.
     
    Upvote 0

    LanceUk

    Free Member
    Jan 8, 2018
    127
    41
    If you think you have a viable idea and it will work to your projections (which should include a meticulously forecast P&L and all operational, legal and licensing requirements), then great - go for it.. I am more on the optimistic side that things will bounce back in reasonably quick fashion, though after yesterday, I am predicting a second wave - albeit smaller than the first, form what I saw in the supermarket and looking into a couple of pubs..

    I personally would be waiting to see what happens until after Autumn (unless your premises is in a holiday area) as they are also predicting a second wave then.. and it could all be lock down again...

    Look, I have worked heavily in Basel II - also as a BA and a risk modeller; Basel IV is being implemented which tigthens the reg stuff. You will (or should) know banks have to hold capital - and I doubt a loan of that size will be able to be placed in a secondary loan market - so if they want to manage the risk off their balance sheet, they will have to tip into into an asset backed secuirty (CLO, anyone?) and while unsecured ABS bonds have been sold, they are hideously expensive to the issuer.

    But why would you want a straight out loan.. you have the debt and are playing full interest from day 1 for cash flow support. Maybe go for a revolving line (overdraft).. it will be uncommitted which means you may be (ever so slightly) more likely to get it because they can pull it at any time - leaves you high and dry but if they pull it, chances are it is because you have been placed on a watch list/early warning list or whatever the bank you bank with calls it. But, at most you will pay an unutilised fee as they still have to hold capital, but it will be a lot less than the interest rate you can expect until you start utilising it, which I would imagine will be past 7% (again, I only worked on the large corp and government side of borrowing - different rules....). I know banks don't like them anymore...

    Given that the fit out is covered under the lease and this is to finance cash flow - so unless you are putting up your house, or T1 like investments (say a maturing investment with a known payout, shares, etc) and you provide covenants with them, then you are uncollateralised. As a credit risk BA, you will know that each sector/size has an unserured recovery rate - how much they can expect to recover from you in the event of default. For large corps, where I was, was around 40% net of secured assets. For an outfit like you are presenting, I would imagine they would require a directors guarantee and assume you have a £10K car.. I have no idea.

    The other option is to find an active business partner who can lend the company money when needed.. they may be more up for it (on the assumption they share your optimism), because the will have daily knowledge of what is going on and can make a decision on a day by day basis off how much to kick in when it is warranted. There are many pitfalls with this to.

    Don't forget, the bank will want forecast EBIDTA and cash flow... they want to kow you can pay it back... Any as you know, they will haircut it pretty hard without any trading history.

    Good luck with it... I personally would be holding off.. but I have no idea of where it is, what due diligence you have done or the deal you have struck.
     
    Upvote 0

    SunnyK

    Free Member
    Feb 20, 2020
    13
    1
    Hi Lance,

    thank you for you response. I can’t go into too much detail on location as I don’t want anyone else bidding against me ☺️. I’ve managed to strike a decent deal on the unit.

    I strongly believe that there is a market for what I want to offer,

    Cheers

    Sunil
     
    Upvote 0

    Mr D

    Free Member
    Feb 12, 2017
    28,924
    3,630
    Stirling
    I strongly believe that there is a market for what I want to offer,

    Cheers

    Sunil


    We all think that when we set up in business.
    Normally more than half of us turn out to be wrong, sometimes just a few months after opening.

    That's under normal circumstances.

    These are not normal circumstances and may never be again.

    Figure out what to do by all means. Also figure out what to do if something doesn't go as you expect.
    Manage risks, reduce chances, stack the deck in your favour. And hope that you are right in your belief. Or it will cost you.
     
    Upvote 0

    LanceUk

    Free Member
    Jan 8, 2018
    127
    41
    As usual, @Mr D (amongst others on this forum) have great advice. I don't recognise you from the photo, but if you have had breakfast at the Breakfast Club in Artillery lane, chances are we have crossed paths somewhere - even if just in the street or at the Polo Bar after a drunken night.. . But, from your mug-shot, you don't look half the old fa... fella I am.. so even if it does go mammaries-up, you will learn a hell of a lot and have time to recover and capitalise on your learnings. I am not saying be cavalier, etc.. after all, the stats are against any new business... in or out of COVID times..

    My point about location was that a lot of companies are not returning to full workforces - but so I would wait before committing my money and effort/employees you will have to lay off until it is clear we aare out of the woods and discretionary spending is not too impaired.. unless, based on the traffic on the M5 yesterday and the number of grockles (tourists) in the area, you are in a tourist hotspot... in which case, make hay while the sun shines (and make sure you have health insurance).

    BTW, my prediction on a second wave, though smaller is based on the fact that lots of grockles weren't adhereing to any form of social distancing where I am in the South West.... During the whole pandemic so far, I haven't been as cautious about doing the shopping as I was yesterday...
     
    Upvote 0

    Chris Ashdown

    Free Member
  • Dec 7, 2003
    13,381
    3,001
    Norfolk
    Cafe Rouge

    Apart from Cafe Rouge closing most of their outlets are you comparing like for like. You have a pub / restaurant with no history and so far little money to market the place, against a well known business that has probably spent millions on getting the brand out to get people to recognise and want to use them

    Pubs are notoriously difficult to manage properly with fickle customers which is why so many go bust. the same with restaurants

    Realistically how many people rushing to a station in the morning, get up early, to be able to spend time having breakfast away from home before there train leaves. they may grab a coffee and sandwich but that's by far Mr and Mrs average. On the return a few will stop at the pub but most just want to get home

    You do seem reluctant to say what your putting into the business, and £100K is very little to fit out a pub/ restaurant and the other startup costs, a good kitchen may take a big chunk of that
     
    Upvote 0

    LanceUk

    Free Member
    Jan 8, 2018
    127
    41
    The lease apparently is covering the fitout - which means the rent will be a bit more and I would expect there will be a premium to pay as well.. The 100K is for cash flow support from what I read. Which us why I don't think a loan is the right way to go.. a revolving credit line (such as an overdraft - although these are no longer really liked by the banks because of the regulatory captial treatment they now are subject to is almost the same as if it was money lent). I know nothing of the restaurant trade - apart from liking to eat at restaurants - I would have no whether such an operation could support through cash flow, the operating costs during the start-up phase of the business? As a cash (or near enough to cash) business, one would expect it to sustain without needing to tap credit lines once it was established.

    On the breakfast thing, during the week, the intention wouldn't be to catch the crowd leaving for work.. As I recall, there were offices nearby, so my guess is to catch the commerical crowd doing breakfast team meetings, etc. It can work in normal times and quite well.

    My concern is that we don't know what a post-COVID world will look like - how many of those office workers are going to return every day to the office.. There has been a push by banks to reduce their office footprint, for example, as it is a huge cost. Any business will be looking at their information workers to see if they can offload them to home working to save money. This is a risk to the footfall at any time of the day. ALthough, at least the block of flats he is under should mitigate it

    Intuitively, well executed, it seems like a reasonable opportunity assuming the timing is right.
     
    Upvote 0

    MarkOnline

    Free Member
    Apr 25, 2020
    609
    239
    ^^This. What happened to starting small and earning a few quid then moving up with the money you have made? wash repeat and so on. If you get past first base then move a little closer to the front of the class if you lose your shirt move to the back with the other dreamers re-evaluate and go again . If you have the necessary skills required you will get to the front eventually, but it does take time. Everyone seems to be in one hell of a rush, maybe its the super wealthy telling everyone anybody can do it.
     
    Upvote 0

    richard10002

    Free Member
    Dec 3, 2015
    39
    2
    £80 -£100k per month????????

    £3,000 a day. £187 per hour. Say 60 covers, average stay 2 hours, average spend, £12.50, 50% full, on average, i.e. 240 covers a day. Not unrealistic on a business plan.

    Having said that, I struggled to get a £20k overdraft from Nat West a few years ago, despite having many many times that in equity, so I'm not sure Nat West is a good first port of call, nor a bank to have your business account with.

    I got a personal loan in the end - no questions asked apart from filling in the form.

    I wonder if the OP has a few partners in the business all of whom could take out £20k or £30k personal loans. There may be other creative ways to get the money - remortgage the house?

    Whilst the bank have made their polite excuses for refusal, it's possible that there is a unwritten blanket ban on loans to the hospitality sector within the bank - which is not a surprise.
     
    Upvote 0

    Latest Articles