Minimum wage - docking pay

[john1989]

Hi All,

Is it lawful to dock someone 15 minutes pay for being 1 minute late.

The person is on minimum wage, so would this be unlawful as it would mean they would be paid under the NMW for the time worked?


Thanks,
John

 

[Hammur IT]

1 minute late????? by who's watch?

 

[john1989]

The clocking in system.

 

[Chris Ashdown]

Simple no as you have no way to define the correct time to within a minute (your time or their's), but rather sill move anyway as any number of reasonable reasons why they are slightly late

Keep a eye on it and mention it to them, If its always the case give them a written notice

 

[stevebrownlie]

If this question is indicative of the kind of 'motivational strategies' you employ to get the best out of your already low-paid workforce then you're losing a lot more than 1 minute a day from every employee whether they turn up on time or not.

 

[roydmoorian]

I wonder if the employee has ever been 1 minute late clocking off

 

[john1989]

Sorry, my fault for not saying, but I'm not enquiring as an employer.

I'm posting on behalf of my dad, who is the employee.

He was 1 minute late, and he was docked 15 minutes wage and was given a verbal warning ... along with several other employees that had been late over a three month period.

I really wanted to know if it was legal to do this if it effectively took their pay below NMW.

 

[Chris Ashdown]

Not being paid for 15 min so pro-rata they are being paid the minimum wage just don't need to work for another 14 minutes

I guess if they are i minute late and get full paid they are in-fact payed over the minimum wage only working 59 minutes for the same money

Is a fine for being late legal or not

Could be a can of worms

Come on Karl where are you on this point of principle

 

[john1989]

They can’t not work for the other 14 minutes, they would face disciplinary for that too.


I planned on writing the appeal to his verbal warning on the basis that it’s disproportionate to the ‘offence’ and is not a regular occurrence. Just wanted to know if there was anything in my thinking regarding the minimum wage.

 

[rmmfree]

I think that is not very ethical. I'm not agree with paying the minimum wage to an employee. Also it's preferred to give the people a margin of 10 minutes to come to the office. In case that you can't pay more to them, and they have been late a total amount of more than 1 hour per month, you could ask them to work 1 hour later one day to compensate it.

 

[Scott@KarmaContent]

This exact issue is mentioned in an article in today's Guardian about some of Sports Direct's somewhat dubious employment practices.

http://www.theguardian.com/business...irect-effectively-pays-below-minimum-wage-pay

From the article above:

Lagadec added that docking 15 minutes of pay for clocking in slightly late is “arguably a breach of the national minimum wage, which carries both criminal and civil sanctions”.

The legal basis of her views was also confirmed to the Guardian by an employment law barrister at one of London’s top legal chambers.

 

[Bob]

This exact issue is mentioned in an article in today's Guardian about some of Sports Direct's somewhat dubious employment practices.

http://www.theguardian.com/business...irect-effectively-pays-below-minimum-wage-pay

From the article above:

Lagadec added that docking 15 minutes of pay for clocking in slightly late is “arguably a breach of the national minimum wage, which carries both criminal and civil sanctions”.

The legal basis of her views was also confirmed to the Guardian by an employment law barrister at one of London’s top legal chambers.

You just beat me to that. Saw the article on Twitter

 

[Employment Law Clinic]

Come on Karl where are you on this point of principle

Where was I Chris? Just where Sift have encouraged me to be: on other forums, and other places to discuss things – where I’m more encouraged to engage with the sites, and take an interest by the site owners.

I guess the policy on here is to turnover numbers of members, regardless of value of contribution, and change the forum in random ways alongside that, and as I don’t see any change to that attitude anytime soon (to the contrary, they stifled discussion on new changes, announced & locked the thread to “new replies” before any were posted). I expect to still pop in, but won’t be here as often as I once was.

Not being paid for 15 min so pro-rata they are being paid the minimum wage just don't need to work for another 14 minutes


I guess if they are i minute late and get full paid they are in-fact payed over the minimum wage only working 59 minutes for the same money


Is a fine for being late legal or not


Could be a can of worms


Come on Karl where are you on this point of principle

Sorry, my fault for not saying, but I'm not enquiring as an employer.


I'm posting on behalf of my dad, who is the employee.


He was 1 minute late, and he was docked 15 minutes wage and was given a verbal warning ... along with several other employees that had been late over a three month period.


I really wanted to know if it was legal to do this if it effectively took their pay below NMW.

Anyway, to the case in point – or cases, given the mention of Sports Direct too.



To start with the Sports Direct (SD) article & comments on that (which I did see long before I saw this thread), I actually don’t see them as being as bad as the media wish to portray. (With respect to Sports Direct policies, these are not my personal views, as I would have a lot of sympathy for the staff; I’m just commenting on my interpretation of the legal position.)


Where SD apparently deduct 15 minutes if a worker is late, the article actually suggests that the shift & pay is reduced by 15 minutes – that if a worker doesn’t arrive on time (even if a minute late), the time to be worked in the shift is reduced, and alongside that the pay is reduced accordingly. Not an entirely unreasonable policy for an employer to adopt, and nothing unlawful about that either.

(If a worker then takes a cautious approach, clocks in early for their XX:15 shift, and starts work early, that’s not perforce, and arguably beyond the revised contractual hours.)


Still with SD, the security checks are something I’m sure Amazon were exposed for some years ago. The law isn’t entirely clear on this, but if the worker cannot walk out, is still under the control of the employer, it’s fair to say they should be paid for this time – and the law appears to support this, although case law for this sort of scenario hasn’t been determined yet, to my knowledge.

The figures reported by the Guardian cannot be relied upon alone though, as they are based on extremely limited information (a couple of reporters working for a couple of weeks if I recall the article correctly), but it’s the length of time speculated (1.25 hours I think was calculated) that the article suggested led to SD not paying the minimum wage; the way this was written, it implied that if, for example, the security checks only took say 45 minutes average that they wouldn’t fall foul of the NMW – which suggests SD is actually paying slightly above the minimum wage elsewhere to allow for this.



The biggest problem I have with the NMW, particularly in terms of the Name & Shame policy of employers that don’t comply, are how this is determined. For sure the hours worked – to the minute, not the next quarter hour after you start work – should be paid, regardless of lateness starting. (Repetitive lateness, regardless of public transport or other excuses, should be dealt with through disciplinary procedures; it doesn't need a specific financial penalty, although this is something that could be allowed for in disciplinary policies.)

What is less clear is whether those in SD queueing to leave should be paid the minimum wage. I think the law is clear that it would rule in this direction (would, as it hasn’t been tested yet), but the only people to judge that are not journalists, and not civil servants from HMRC enforcing the NMW, but judges. Until we know how the NMW is calculated, what time is counted – decisions of judges to interpret the law, not civil servants – I don’t think it’s fair for the government to Name & Shame; of course, the media is free to report it’s investigations, but I don’t think it should be said as a fact that an employer failed to pay the NMW unless that is absolutely clear – and that isn’t so in the case of SD.

Hi All,


Is it lawful to dock someone 15 minutes pay for being 1 minute late.


The person is on minimum wage, so would this be unlawful as it would mean they would be paid under the NMW for the time worked?

There could be some circumstances when it would be lawful to make a deduction of 15 minutes for 1 minute late, if this was within the contractual terms of employment. However, that doesn’t apply where this would bring the pay below the minimum wage for the time actually worked.


If there are no other complications involved to determine the working hours – and in the case of SD, it appears that there are, as if you don’t clock in on time, the shift is reduced automatically, so you couldn’t be penalised for not working the other 14 minutes – this would be an unlawful failure to pay the NMW, and arguably a deduction from wages if the 14 minutes work had to be done without being paid for it – a matter to be decided by a tribunal judge, the right authority to determine these things. (Although it would cost a lot more to determine the case than the value, unless taken as a group action.)



Karl Limpert

 

[john1989]

Thank you for such a comprehensive reply, Karl.

My dad was going to just accept the verbal warning. But the manager has made some lies in the letter which can be proven so he is going to appeal out of principle.

On another note, it has been suggested to me that the clocking in machines must be calibrated annually. Do you know if this is correct?

 

[chris2014]

Not sure if this is a normal thing happening all over but I am not on minimum wage, on quite a decent salaried job yet we are treat the same, if we are 1 minute late we have to work 15 minutes extra or be docked the 15 minutes.

When we started getting docked like this we stopped working all the extra (unpaid) hours we were doing.

I feel bad for people on the minimum wage and being treat in this way. It certainly is demotivating and will not mean employers get the most out of their staff.

 

[Barry29]

Hi any advice would be great my employer is docking my wages for throwing a rolled up pair of gloves to another employee at the end of a shift he called it horseplay.. he said he will be taking an hour of my next wage but he said it was off the record. Is the legal??

 

[Barry29]

Hi any advice would be great my employer is docking my wages for throwing a rolled up pair of gloves to another employee at the end of a shift he called it horseplay.. he said he will be taking an hour of my next wage but he said it was off the record. Is the legal??

 

[Newchodge]

Hi any advice would be great my employer is docking my wages for throwing a rolled up pair of gloves to another employee at the end of a shift he called it horseplay.. he said he will be taking an hour of my next wage but he said it was off the record. Is the legal??

It is legal if your contract states that he can do this. if not, he is in breach of minimum age regulations.

 

[Barry29]

It is not in my contract and its the part where he is docking me and keeping it off the record that bothers me and it doesnt bring me under the min wage.. it just seems shady

 

[Mr D]

Think it was the posting on a minimum wage thread that was confusing people.

So he is going to deduct money but he is going to do it off the record?
Be an interesting trick.

Perhaps like a Tommy Cooper trick?

 

[Barry29]

Its a first for me he told the foreman to take an hour off of us for monday so not sure if he can or not

 

[obscure]

Its a first for me he told the foreman to take an hour off of us for monday so not sure if he can or not

What they are doing is illegal. An employer can not deduct money from salary earned unless the employment contract has a clause that specifically allows this (IE you contractually agreed to allow them to make deductions).

Also, how do they intend to keep it "off the record"? You worked X hours and legally they must pay you for them. The only way to hide the deduction would be to falsify the records of how long you worked - which would be fraud.

If your employer wants to take action for what they believe is unacceptable behaviour they can do that by disciplining you under the company's disciplinary policy (EG giving you a warning). They can not legally deduct wages.