Lorry accident liability

[LegallyBrunette]

Hi All, I hope everyone is keeping safe and well?

I wonder if anyone might have some advice on situation, that I am stumped on! I am an accountant, so this sort of law, is not my realm.

A friend drives Class 1 for a national firm. A few months ago, he walked into work and was told someone had called in and said he damaged their wall. He knew nothing of this, and that was the last he heard of it.

Last night, a police officer calls him to ask a few questions - which he had expected - and then the officer told him that his firm wouldn't pay for the damage, and so he had to - about £1000. The officer suggested this be through his own car insurance, or out of his own pocket. He wanted my friend to go to all the way over to the Yorkshire police station, to discuss it further. (a good hour drive)

I find this highly irregular... am I behind the times? I would have expected that his firm would pay out and they would be the ones to take back any money, should that be appropriate.

I have advised him, in the first instance, to ask for the officer to put the situation in writing, with evidence of damage, proof it was him, and a copy of any invoices... and I advised him not to give out his address - the officer should know it. I've also told him to get in touch with his firm's head office to find out more, as no one has spoken to him about this.

ACAS told me this wouldn't be an employer/employee issue.

I just wondered if anyone had any knowledge of these situations? Why are the police asking my friend to pay for the damage? Shouldn't this be a civil court issue - if indeed the homeowner can prove my friend has done any damage?

Any advice is greatly appreciated. This is a genuine friend situation, and I'd like to help as he isn't very good at this sort of thing. It might be that he needs a solicitor, I am just trying to get ahead of what he can do, at this stage.

PS - apologies if this is in the wrong part of the forum. I just saw "Legal" but now see that's for running a business.

 

[Paul Norman]

The law here is not black and white.

If I commit an offence in a company vehicle, I remain responsible. If I drive a company van with bald tyres, it is my license that will be endorsed.

My company may, or may not, choose to reimburse me.

In this case, the company would normally deal with it through their own insurance for the lorry. That would be the correct procedure, but the driver would be liable for any charges - such as dangerous driving.

His car insurance won't be interested. It just is not there problem. The lorry insurance will obviously want some evidence that the damage was caused by him.

I don't think the police have dealt with this correctly, but beyond solving the incident it is not their job to sort out the 'who pays' thing, either.

I would suggest giving the police any information, including the insurance details that covered the lorry at the time.

 

[Newchodge]

The driver of any and every vehicle is always responsible for damage they cause or driving offences they commit.

An employee who is driving a vehicle owned by their employer cannot make a claim through insurance as they do not have an insurance policy to permiot them to drive the vehicle. Their employer has to make the claim through their insurance. Unless there is something in the employment contract to the contrary the employer cannot require that the employee pays.

If an individual believes that a driver has caused damage to their property (of whatever kind) they should report it to the police who will investigate whether the offence of failing to stop after or report an accident. I believe that summons for that offence must be issued within 6 months of the commisison of the offence. Other than that the individual can try and take a civil claim against the driver.

The police officer has no right whatsoever to demand any payment or suggest that the driver commit fraud by claiming through their own insurance when the vehicle is insured by another. The police only role is to investigate the potential case outlined above.

Your friend should report the conversation to his employer and telephone the police force involved and ask to speak to the duty inspector at the police station to report the conversation on the grounds that he believes it may have been a scam. (ie no police involvment).

 

[Darren_Ssc]

Last night, a police officer calls him to ask a few questions - which he had expected - and then the officer told him that his firm wouldn't pay for the damage, and so he had to - about £1000. The officer suggested this be through his own car insurance, or out of his own pocket. He wanted my friend to go to all the way over to the Yorkshire police station, to discuss it further. (a good hour drive)

I find this highly irregular... am I behind the times? I would have expected that his firm would pay out and they would be the ones to take back any money, should that be appropriate.

First thing I would do is raise a complaint against this police officer. It may turn out there is a connection between him and the owner of the wall?

If there is one thing I have learned over the past few years is that the Police will avoid getting involved in any such case at all costs. This situation has dodgy written all over it.

 

[LegallyBrunette]

Thanks to you both for your kind replies.

I've told him to root out his employment contract, and to contact Regional Head Office instead of going through the numpties as his local depot. I agree the police seem to be stepping outside their duties. He said someone was whispering to the officer, telling them to ask certain questions!

There would be no dangerous driving involved, but I have suggested to him that maybe the homeowner is claiming he fled the scene of an accident, and that's why the police are involved. He has told the officer that he isn't aware of causing any damage. The trailers are massive, so its possible he could clip something on a tight road, and not realise it. But I am surprised work haven't reported to him that one of his trailers was damaged. How can he prove or disprove, at this point? All we know is that someone took his registration number.

I've asked him to get the officer name, officer number, his station, and a case reference. And when the officer rings back, I've told him to request something in writing. That should determine whether its bonafide police involvement.

He does feel bad for the homeowever, if indeed he has caused such damage. He just isnt sure how to go about things, the way they have been presented to him.

 

[Newchodge]

How can he prove or disprove, at this point?

That is not how our criminal system works. The police would have to prove that he was responsible and aware that he was responsible. That is not going to happen, which is why the police involvment is suspect.

For the civil system it would be for the property owner to produce evidence to support the allegation that it was him and for him (via his employer's insurance company) to produce evidence that it was not him. It is then down to what the judge (on the balance of probabilities) believes.

 

[LegallyBrunette]

That is not how our criminal system works. The police would have to prove that he was responsible and aware that he was responsible. That is not going to happen, which is why the police involvment is suspect.

For the civil system it would be for the property owner to produce evidence to support the allegation that it was him and for him (via his employer's insurance company) to produce evidence that it was not him. It is then down to what the judge (on the balance of probabilities) believes.

Thanks Cyndy, really appreciate your input.

 

[Michael Loveridge]

I'm afraid it sounds to me as though someone was impersonating a police officer, which is itself a serious criminal offence. I just can't believe that a genuine officer would make comments like that - it's not their role to assist people to pursue civil claims. Furthermore, a genuine officer would realise that your friend's car insurance couldn't possibly cover him.

Unless your friend has proof that the person was a genuine police officer I think he should contact the police directly and tell them what's happened. It's not unknown for police officers to overstep the mark, and if he was genuine he needs a good talking to. If he wasn't then he will pretty soon discover that impersonating an officer is not a good idea.

 

[LegallyBrunette]

Thanks Michael.

He now has a meeting planned with his depot manager, when he finishes his shift later, to find out what the company has said and done, via their insurance company. I am sure they have cameras on the lorry somewhere, so if the company isn't paying out, there must be no evidence. Its a top company in the UK, so I doubt they would haggle over such small amounts, if they felt it was the drivers fault. If the cost of fixing is £1000, that suggests a considerable amount of damage.. and how does one do that without noticing, even in a Class 1 lorry. That sounds like a full wall takeout!

I've told him to take down the officers details and station, should he call back, and to verify this person with the police. The officer asked him where he lived, so one wonders how they would not know this... this is why I have told him to tell this officer to put things in writing. If its a genuine officer, they would already know the address. They called at 7.30pm last night, so he was taken off guard. I know police will make calls, but from experience, that is usually after a visit or some form of face to face.

Thanks to all, for your comments. My friend is reading them and feeling more confident about what steps he needs to take.

 

[The Byre]

1. The police do not investigate civil matters - ever!
2. The police have access to a complete reverse look-up for all landline tel.numbers.
3. A policeman is obliged to identify him/herself and their station when first approaching a member of the public, unless in person and in uniform (they are numbered in case they get lost).
4. The police have to have full knowledge of insurance and liability laws.
5. Impersonation of a police officer is a criminal offense.

Make a note of the number calling (record the call next time if possible) and report it as the possible crime of impersonating a police officer.

 

[LegallyBrunette]

I do feel it is dubious myself. But I cant see how else this person would have gotten my friends mobile number.

 

[Awinner2]

As others have said this is likely to be a scam operation. Phone call to your friend asking them to drive 1 hour away from home (after he established the home address! Yes let's get someone out of the house while we pop in to raid it. Double dodgy goings on here.

 

[Darren_Ssc]

I do feel it is dubious myself. But I cant see how else this person would have gotten my friends mobile number.

Seeing as you don't know whether this wall actually ever existed, it could be anyone who happens to have his number and who also knows where he works.

 

[LegallyBrunette]

He said he didn't give out his address, which is a relief. He only said the area in which he lived in. He will be calling this person back, and requesting his details so that he can confirm he is an officer. On the off chance, it is an officer, he doesn't want to just ignore it.

The only reason my friend knows about this incident, is because his depot manager told him someone had rang in. He is in a meeting now with said Manager asking for details of what's been said between the employers insurance company and the homeowner. I've said whatever the company's reason for not paying out, is probably his defense, as well.

Thanks again for all your comments. Bit of drama for a friday!

 

[JEREMY HAWKE]

I don't actually think these are the facts
There is no way an officer would do this !

It is down to the haulage company's insurers to decide weather the company is liable or not . This was the policy in place at the time while the driver was in his employ and rightly or wrongly destroyed the wall while in this employ !

I dont see him as personally liable as far as the wall repair is concerned but he is liable for any road traffic offence

This boy has been mislead and stitch up by all concerned if the facts are accurate

 

[Bob Morgan]

"Thanks for calling Officer, let me return the call to the Police Station!"
SCAM!

 

[smallclaimsassistance]

As others have said, this is nothing to do with the police. Either they charge your friend with an offence, or they don't. This sounds like a scam.

If it is a genuine accident committed by your friend while he was driving his company vehicle in the course of his employment, he should refer it to his employers, who should refer it to their insurers. S151 of the Road Traffic Act (1988) (in short) LEGALLY OBLIGES insurers to deal with unsatisfied judgements in respect of vehicle accidents against their insured. This puts the onus upon the insurer to investigate and then either pay or deny and fight the claim.

Your friend should direct all enquiries to his employer and if his employer refers those back to him, he should obtain details of the vehicle's insurers (he is a Class 1 HGV driver and I would expect the insurance details to be carried in the cab) and report the claim to the insurers himself.

Dean