Knowing the mind of God
- Thread starter cjd
- Start date
http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2009/03/25/turtles-all-the-way-down/
"When a person like this is asked who or what created God, the standard answer is that God always existed. But why can't we say the same about the Universe itself? It's entirely possible the Universe is a part of a larger structure, a metaverse, if you will, that always existed and always will. Our understanding of the nature of time is still incomplete, so something like this is not out of the question."
"When a person like this is asked who or what created God, the standard answer is that God always existed. But why can't we say the same about the Universe itself? It's entirely possible the Universe is a part of a larger structure, a metaverse, if you will, that always existed and always will. Our understanding of the nature of time is still incomplete, so something like this is not out of the question."
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- Original Poster
- #6,324
The BBC has a Religious Calender showing the celebration days of the major faith systems. It's a good reminder that the world has made up many, many different gods.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/tools/calendar/
For example yesterday was the Annunciation, celebrating the Angel Gabriel's 'visit' to Mary and nine months later Jesus was born. Quite bonkers and obviously totally made up to get Joseph out of trouble, but nevertheless, believed by millions.
Anyway today is important to Zoroastrians:
Khordad Sal
Khordad Sal is celebrated as the birthday of Zoroaster.
This is known as the 'Greater Noruz' and happens six days after Noruz, although the date is as much Zoroaster's birth date as the 25 December is the birth date of Jesus in Christianity.
This festival is considered one of the most important in the Zoroastrian calendar. Zoroastrians gather in Fire temples for prayers and then celebrate with feasting.
Zoroastrianism is one of the world's oldest monotheistic religions.
It was founded by the Prophet Zoroaster in ancient Iran approximately 3500 years ago.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/tools/calendar/
For example yesterday was the Annunciation, celebrating the Angel Gabriel's 'visit' to Mary and nine months later Jesus was born. Quite bonkers and obviously totally made up to get Joseph out of trouble, but nevertheless, believed by millions.
Anyway today is important to Zoroastrians:
Khordad Sal
Khordad Sal is celebrated as the birthday of Zoroaster.
This is known as the 'Greater Noruz' and happens six days after Noruz, although the date is as much Zoroaster's birth date as the 25 December is the birth date of Jesus in Christianity.
This festival is considered one of the most important in the Zoroastrian calendar. Zoroastrians gather in Fire temples for prayers and then celebrate with feasting.
Zoroastrianism is one of the world's oldest monotheistic religions.
It was founded by the Prophet Zoroaster in ancient Iran approximately 3500 years ago.
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The king of arguing the universe must have had a beginning and that beginning must have been caused and caused by a personality etc etc - all that horse**** - is double doctorate William Lane Craig. He can do 10,000 words on it without pausing for breath. I find him very hard to watch without a sick bucket but you can read his kalam cosmological revamp transcripts if you stick matchsticks inbetween your eyelids.
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Well I've seen weeks spent arguing over the word 'spontaneously' here. I don't think you're allowed to say it, as spontaneity is a temporal whatsit and comparitive dooberry or something. The universe is certainly mostly nothing and the somethings aren't much really.
Hope that clears things up.
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- Original Poster
- #6,328
Catholics are top of the news again today.
Our wonderful Royal family can't marry a Catholic and still claim the throne - a little reminder that organised religion was always only about politics and power and, in another throw back to the dark ages, the Pope is being accused of distorting science in support of Catholic ideology:
Our wonderful Royal family can't marry a Catholic and still claim the throne - a little reminder that organised religion was always only about politics and power and, in another throw back to the dark ages, the Pope is being accused of distorting science in support of Catholic ideology:
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Many atheist commentators hail Darth Ratzinger as the best thing for their cause since sliced witches, but I think the punters are going to keep loving it and the business will expand. How would more death damage a death cult? Ratzi's already made it clear that non-catholic christians are going to fry - they love this stuff! Shroud wavers want more shrouds.
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Here's a brief stolen checklist for creationists - if you can do these you may not be kidding yourselves:-
- Show that the universe was created
- Show that the creator was a deity
- Show that this deity is interventionist and omni-maximal (omnipotent, omniscient and omni-benevolent)
- Show that this deity is that of a small tribe on a small planet, orbiting a fairly ordinary star. The star being one of 400 billion others in a galaxy, which in itself is just one of 150 billion others
- Show that all of this is documented in the holy book of a set of cattle sacrificing primitives
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D
dagr
I shouldn't laugh really because it is a serious subject, but listening to some bishops here in France first try to justify the Pope's dodgy science claims about condom usage through even worse pseudo science (e.g. size of AIDS virus versus size of rubber molecules - bloody brilliant!), and then second, see them backtrack as they realise they are talking utter crap, has been most entertaining.
In some ways it's a pity they were shot down in flames so quickly by scientists as I was looking forward to further nonsensical claptrap, like Jesus taming the dinosaurs, etc.
In some ways it's a pity they were shot down in flames so quickly by scientists as I was looking forward to further nonsensical claptrap, like Jesus taming the dinosaurs, etc.
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And even better....
4 reasons why you shouldn't be an atheist (oh, and buy my book!)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Qpm7GpYzQ0&feature=related
4 reasons why you shouldn't be an atheist (oh, and buy my book!)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Qpm7GpYzQ0&feature=related
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- Original Poster
- #6,336
How we like to believe in frogmen...
or
How We Staged the Morristown UFO Hoax
Chris Russo & Joe Rudy
Have you ever seen the face of the Virgin Mary on your grilled cheese? How about the image of Satan in a cloud of smoke? Or Sasquatch running through the woods? What about an alien spacecraft in the sky?
It is not difficult to find people who respond with an astounding yes! to one of these or all four. Humans are, by nature, experts at finding patterns whether they are real or not, and UFOs are among the most common patterns people find in the skies. Now, you may be thinking that UFOs are only seen by a mullet sporting, tobacco chewing, dolt whose highest aspiration is to make an appearance on the Jerry Springer Show, but in fact doctors, lawyers and even pilots report seeing flying saucers, flying triangles, and aerial shapes of all manner of an unidentified nature. Even over the skies of an affluent suburban community in New Jersey. Enter Joe Rudy and Chris Russo and the great UFO hoax of 2009.
headline from Morris County Daily Record January 31, 2009
In November of 2008, we found ourselves sitting around one evening discussing pseudoscience and the large numbers of people that still believe in its various guises. We had always had a strong interest in why people were so easily fooled by such irrational superstitions as psychic ability, spiritual mediums, alien abductions, and the like. Despite the lack of evidence to support these notions, we were baffled. How could so many people in an age of science still buy into dogma that is no more or less ridiculous than the notion of an elderly obese man delivering presents to every child on Earth in one evening? And like most other people, we had always heard about the uneducated farmer spotting an alien spaceship hovering over his farm, but we wondered if that amount of gullibility could be found in our upper-middle class hometown of Hanover, NJ, and the surrounding cities.
The modern UFO phenomena began in 1947 when a pilot named Kenneth Arnold spotted objects that he described as crescent shaped, adding that they moved like a saucer would if you skipped it across the water. He was subsequently misquoted by an Associated Press reporter as having seen flying saucers, which he later corrected, noting: They said that Id said they were saucer-like. I said they flew in saucer-like fashion. Nevertheless, the flying saucer craze was born and 60 years later, despite the fact that there is still no evidence of their existence, the UFO myth is as strong today as ever, fed by cable channel shows that prop up UFO experts who claim to be authorities on a subject thats on par with astrology and palm reading. These charlatans make a career by perpetuating the E.T. fairy tale and exploiting credulous people who want nothing more than a good conspiracy theory to believe in.
ad published by a local auto dealership taking advantage of the publicity
It is in this context that we set out on a mission to help people think rationally and question the credibility of so-called UFO professionals. We brainstormed the idea of producing a spaceship hoax to fool people, bring the charlatans out of the woodwork to drum up controversy, and then expose it as nothing more than a prank to show everyone how unreliable eyewitness accounts are, along with investigators of UFOs.
We hatched the idea of tying flares onto helium balloons and launching them in a nearby field an open yet isolated area surrounded by woods. There we were sure that we would have the privacy to prep the balloons, and that we wouldnt have our plot foiled. From the beginning we decided to document all aspects of the project, including setting up the flares and balloons, launching them into the sky, and recording any media coverage that the UFOs received. The documentation was especially important in order to prevent conspiracy theorists from claiming that we were part of a cover-up of the truth when we revealed the hoax.
On January 5, 2009, we set out into the woods on the border of Morris Plains and Hanover, NJ, carrying one helium tank, five balloons, five flares, fishing line, duct tape, and a video camera. After filling up one 3-foot balloon with helium, we tied about five feet of fishing line to the balloon, secured the line with tape, then tied and taped the flare to the other end of the line. Once all five balloons were ready for takeoff (with our fingers on the verge of frost bite), we struck the 15-minute flares and released them into the sky in increments of fifteen seconds apart from each other. We filmed the UFOs as they floated away, and then walked the half-mile stretch out of the woods to our car. The hoax was underway.
national media coverage on Fox News
The media coverage the incident received over the next few days was extensive. Both local and national news stations were covering the UFO over New Jersey. The local paper had a field day with it, quoting a doctor who said the mysterious lights traveled against the wind, and quoting another man who said the object didnt appear to be manmade. The most sought after witnesses were the Hurley family. Paul Hurley, a pilot, along with his family, made appearances on just about every major news station, describing the strange lights that they saw in the sky. The Morristown UFO became the talk of the town.
We followed up our light show with four more performances, gaining media attention every time. Every conspiracy website and radio show was mentioning it. To add fuel to the fire, we made appearances ourselves on News 12 New Jersey, on the Jeff Rense Program (a radio show that promotes conspiracy theories), and at an Illinois UFO symposium hosted by MUFON. We even provided our own footage.
To see a number of media stories, along with the footage we shot of our hoax being prepared and under way, follow the links at the end of this article.
fishing line was duct-taped on the flares
The icing on the cake came when the popular History Channel show UFO Hunters featured the Morristown UFO as their main story one week. Bill Birnes, the lead investigator of the show and the publisher of UFO Magazine, declared definitively that the Morristown UFO could not have been flares or Chinese lanterns. Surely Birnes, who has written and edited over 25 books and encyclopedias in the fields of human behavior, true crime, current affairs, history, psychology, business, computing, and the paranormal, and the co-author of The Day After Roswell (a New York Times bestseller in 1997 and subsequently a documentary on The History Channel), could not have let himself be fooled by a couple of twenty- somethings with no formal education in psychology. He could.
This begs an important question: are UFO investigators simply charlatans looking to make a quick buck off human gullibility, or are they alarmists using bad science to back up their biased opinions that extraterrestrial life is routinely visiting our planet? Either way, are these people deserving of their own shows on major cable networks? If a respected UFO investigator can be easily manipulated and dead wrong on one UFO case, is it possible hes wrong on most (or all) of them? Do the networks buy into this nonsense, or are they in it for the ratings? How can a television network that has pretensions of providing honest and factual programming be taken seriously when the topic of one of their top rated shows deals with chasing flares and fishing line? In fact, we delivered what every perfect UFO case has: great video and pictures, credible eyewitnesses (doctors and pilots), and professional investigators convinced that something amazing was witnessed. Does this bring into question the validity of every other UFO case? We believe it does.
Watch the videos
Part 1 The Setup
Part 2 The Launches
Part 3 The Reactions
or
How We Staged the Morristown UFO Hoax
Chris Russo & Joe Rudy
Have you ever seen the face of the Virgin Mary on your grilled cheese? How about the image of Satan in a cloud of smoke? Or Sasquatch running through the woods? What about an alien spacecraft in the sky?
It is not difficult to find people who respond with an astounding yes! to one of these or all four. Humans are, by nature, experts at finding patterns whether they are real or not, and UFOs are among the most common patterns people find in the skies. Now, you may be thinking that UFOs are only seen by a mullet sporting, tobacco chewing, dolt whose highest aspiration is to make an appearance on the Jerry Springer Show, but in fact doctors, lawyers and even pilots report seeing flying saucers, flying triangles, and aerial shapes of all manner of an unidentified nature. Even over the skies of an affluent suburban community in New Jersey. Enter Joe Rudy and Chris Russo and the great UFO hoax of 2009.
In November of 2008, we found ourselves sitting around one evening discussing pseudoscience and the large numbers of people that still believe in its various guises. We had always had a strong interest in why people were so easily fooled by such irrational superstitions as psychic ability, spiritual mediums, alien abductions, and the like. Despite the lack of evidence to support these notions, we were baffled. How could so many people in an age of science still buy into dogma that is no more or less ridiculous than the notion of an elderly obese man delivering presents to every child on Earth in one evening? And like most other people, we had always heard about the uneducated farmer spotting an alien spaceship hovering over his farm, but we wondered if that amount of gullibility could be found in our upper-middle class hometown of Hanover, NJ, and the surrounding cities.
The modern UFO phenomena began in 1947 when a pilot named Kenneth Arnold spotted objects that he described as crescent shaped, adding that they moved like a saucer would if you skipped it across the water. He was subsequently misquoted by an Associated Press reporter as having seen flying saucers, which he later corrected, noting: They said that Id said they were saucer-like. I said they flew in saucer-like fashion. Nevertheless, the flying saucer craze was born and 60 years later, despite the fact that there is still no evidence of their existence, the UFO myth is as strong today as ever, fed by cable channel shows that prop up UFO experts who claim to be authorities on a subject thats on par with astrology and palm reading. These charlatans make a career by perpetuating the E.T. fairy tale and exploiting credulous people who want nothing more than a good conspiracy theory to believe in.
It is in this context that we set out on a mission to help people think rationally and question the credibility of so-called UFO professionals. We brainstormed the idea of producing a spaceship hoax to fool people, bring the charlatans out of the woodwork to drum up controversy, and then expose it as nothing more than a prank to show everyone how unreliable eyewitness accounts are, along with investigators of UFOs.
We hatched the idea of tying flares onto helium balloons and launching them in a nearby field an open yet isolated area surrounded by woods. There we were sure that we would have the privacy to prep the balloons, and that we wouldnt have our plot foiled. From the beginning we decided to document all aspects of the project, including setting up the flares and balloons, launching them into the sky, and recording any media coverage that the UFOs received. The documentation was especially important in order to prevent conspiracy theorists from claiming that we were part of a cover-up of the truth when we revealed the hoax.
On January 5, 2009, we set out into the woods on the border of Morris Plains and Hanover, NJ, carrying one helium tank, five balloons, five flares, fishing line, duct tape, and a video camera. After filling up one 3-foot balloon with helium, we tied about five feet of fishing line to the balloon, secured the line with tape, then tied and taped the flare to the other end of the line. Once all five balloons were ready for takeoff (with our fingers on the verge of frost bite), we struck the 15-minute flares and released them into the sky in increments of fifteen seconds apart from each other. We filmed the UFOs as they floated away, and then walked the half-mile stretch out of the woods to our car. The hoax was underway.
The media coverage the incident received over the next few days was extensive. Both local and national news stations were covering the UFO over New Jersey. The local paper had a field day with it, quoting a doctor who said the mysterious lights traveled against the wind, and quoting another man who said the object didnt appear to be manmade. The most sought after witnesses were the Hurley family. Paul Hurley, a pilot, along with his family, made appearances on just about every major news station, describing the strange lights that they saw in the sky. The Morristown UFO became the talk of the town.
We followed up our light show with four more performances, gaining media attention every time. Every conspiracy website and radio show was mentioning it. To add fuel to the fire, we made appearances ourselves on News 12 New Jersey, on the Jeff Rense Program (a radio show that promotes conspiracy theories), and at an Illinois UFO symposium hosted by MUFON. We even provided our own footage.
To see a number of media stories, along with the footage we shot of our hoax being prepared and under way, follow the links at the end of this article.
The icing on the cake came when the popular History Channel show UFO Hunters featured the Morristown UFO as their main story one week. Bill Birnes, the lead investigator of the show and the publisher of UFO Magazine, declared definitively that the Morristown UFO could not have been flares or Chinese lanterns. Surely Birnes, who has written and edited over 25 books and encyclopedias in the fields of human behavior, true crime, current affairs, history, psychology, business, computing, and the paranormal, and the co-author of The Day After Roswell (a New York Times bestseller in 1997 and subsequently a documentary on The History Channel), could not have let himself be fooled by a couple of twenty- somethings with no formal education in psychology. He could.
This begs an important question: are UFO investigators simply charlatans looking to make a quick buck off human gullibility, or are they alarmists using bad science to back up their biased opinions that extraterrestrial life is routinely visiting our planet? Either way, are these people deserving of their own shows on major cable networks? If a respected UFO investigator can be easily manipulated and dead wrong on one UFO case, is it possible hes wrong on most (or all) of them? Do the networks buy into this nonsense, or are they in it for the ratings? How can a television network that has pretensions of providing honest and factual programming be taken seriously when the topic of one of their top rated shows deals with chasing flares and fishing line? In fact, we delivered what every perfect UFO case has: great video and pictures, credible eyewitnesses (doctors and pilots), and professional investigators convinced that something amazing was witnessed. Does this bring into question the validity of every other UFO case? We believe it does.
Watch the videos
Part 1 The Setup
Part 2 The Launches
Part 3 The Reactions
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0
- Original Poster
- #6,339
Their point is that for some reason people are desperate to find supernatural or irrational reasons to explain unusual natural events. It's a form of confirmation bias.
The enorrnous numbers of hoaxes, frauds and even honest mistakes in anything to do with mystical sightings and hocus pocus events just proves how careful you have to be.
There was a rash of crop circles a few years ago - remember those? Aliens did them apparently. It was a major news item on TV and front page in the news papers.
There was one in a field opposite me. Even when the people that did it published a book on exactly how they made them and reproduced it for the press - people still believe it was aliens. They say that the explanation was part of the cover up by governments.
It's a pattern, once an irrational belief is firmly lodged in the brain, no amount of negative evidence seems to be able to shift it.
The enorrnous numbers of hoaxes, frauds and even honest mistakes in anything to do with mystical sightings and hocus pocus events just proves how careful you have to be.
There was a rash of crop circles a few years ago - remember those? Aliens did them apparently. It was a major news item on TV and front page in the news papers.
There was one in a field opposite me. Even when the people that did it published a book on exactly how they made them and reproduced it for the press - people still believe it was aliens. They say that the explanation was part of the cover up by governments.
It's a pattern, once an irrational belief is firmly lodged in the brain, no amount of negative evidence seems to be able to shift it.
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Welcome back Kim! So much has happened since I last insulted you - last year I mean. I'm going for classier plagiarised insults this time around....since a week ago anyway. Prebiotic evolution is where it's at. You were right all along - we can't have DNA just popping out of nowhere and even some non-creationists have noticed this.
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- Original Poster
- #6,341
'Clasically' you edited the quote. Here's the full sentence.
"In fact, we delivered what every perfect UFO case has: great video and pictures, credible eyewitnesses (doctors and pilots), and professional investigators convinced that something amazing was witnessed. Does this bring into question the validity of every other UFO case? We believe it does."
This is the problem with eye witnesse evidence only - it is not good enough evidence.
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- Original Poster
- #6,342
Tomorrow, Hindus celebrate the birth of Rama Navami.
Odd; despite my years of religious education, Ive never heard of him. But presumably, most Hindus will have never heard of The Holy Ghost.
All depends on where youre born I guess bit random that though, for a God.
Note to the Christian believer: If what you read below makes you laugh, or think theyre mad, or ask yourself how anyone can really believe in all that nonsense; thats how atheists think about all religions. Christianity is just as barking mad.
Btw, Hinduism is the worlds largest and oldest religion there are 900m of Hindus; most in India.
April 3rd - Hindu
Rama Navami
Rama Navami celebrates the birth of Lord Rama, son of King Dasharatha of Ayodhya.
Rama (centre) with Laxman, Sita and Hanuman ©
Rama was an incarnation of Vishnu and the hero of the Ramayana, the Sanskrit epic of 24,000 stanzas.
A continuous recital of the book takes place for about a week prior to the celebration and on the day itself, the highlights of the story are read in the temple.
Rituals and ceremonies
The house is thoroughly cleaned on Rama Navami and is also decorated. Offerings of fruit and flowers are placed on the family shrine and after an early bath, prayers are recited.
The youngest female member of the household leads the puja (prayers) by applying a red tilak (mark) to all the other members of the family before everyone joins together in worship.
An image or picture of baby Rama is placed in a covered cradle and at noon, the covering is removed and Prasad (special sacred food) is offered to Rama, which may then be shared amongst the congregation.
There is an element of fasting. Some people don't eat certain foods, particularly things like onions, garlic, some spices and wheat products.
The festival is a focal point for moral reflection and being especially charitable to others.
Celebrations at places associated with Sri Rama, like Ayodhya in Uttar Pradesh and Ramesvaram in Tamil Nadu attract thousands of devotees.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/hinduism/ataglance/glance.shtml
Odd; despite my years of religious education, Ive never heard of him. But presumably, most Hindus will have never heard of The Holy Ghost.
All depends on where youre born I guess bit random that though, for a God.
Note to the Christian believer: If what you read below makes you laugh, or think theyre mad, or ask yourself how anyone can really believe in all that nonsense; thats how atheists think about all religions. Christianity is just as barking mad.
Btw, Hinduism is the worlds largest and oldest religion there are 900m of Hindus; most in India.
April 3rd - Hindu
Rama Navami
Rama Navami celebrates the birth of Lord Rama, son of King Dasharatha of Ayodhya.
Rama (centre) with Laxman, Sita and Hanuman ©
Rama was an incarnation of Vishnu and the hero of the Ramayana, the Sanskrit epic of 24,000 stanzas.
A continuous recital of the book takes place for about a week prior to the celebration and on the day itself, the highlights of the story are read in the temple.
Rituals and ceremonies
The house is thoroughly cleaned on Rama Navami and is also decorated. Offerings of fruit and flowers are placed on the family shrine and after an early bath, prayers are recited.
The youngest female member of the household leads the puja (prayers) by applying a red tilak (mark) to all the other members of the family before everyone joins together in worship.
An image or picture of baby Rama is placed in a covered cradle and at noon, the covering is removed and Prasad (special sacred food) is offered to Rama, which may then be shared amongst the congregation.
There is an element of fasting. Some people don't eat certain foods, particularly things like onions, garlic, some spices and wheat products.
The festival is a focal point for moral reflection and being especially charitable to others.
Celebrations at places associated with Sri Rama, like Ayodhya in Uttar Pradesh and Ramesvaram in Tamil Nadu attract thousands of devotees.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/hinduism/ataglance/glance.shtml
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This is a very heavy read!
I have to say I'm still happy with logic and science myself.
The fact remains that no matter what any religious person says today they have been let down by the founders of their religions! All ancient religions that were equally as rich in 'faith' believed and preached things that we all now (including religious types) accept to be false!
Rainbows are not miraculous. (dispelled when garden sprinklers came out and everyone realised they could have their own and turn it on and off at will).
The Sun is not a God (this was hard to maintain when people realised that all stars were suns - must have made the god in question seem a little less special!)
Eclipses are not signs from god (They are in fact very simple to understand, easily demonstrated with a torch and a tennis ball).
And all religious types still send their kids to schools that teach the above facts! If your happy to let your kids be told the facts when so many billions of people with cast iron faith used to believe otherwise then why can these people not have a logical reasoned review of their current beliefs?
And don't get me started on those that don't accept darwins theories of evolution. When you start believing things you can't see over things that have been seen and documented then religion isn't an excuse. You're just crazy!
I have to say I'm still happy with logic and science myself.
The fact remains that no matter what any religious person says today they have been let down by the founders of their religions! All ancient religions that were equally as rich in 'faith' believed and preached things that we all now (including religious types) accept to be false!
Rainbows are not miraculous. (dispelled when garden sprinklers came out and everyone realised they could have their own and turn it on and off at will).
The Sun is not a God (this was hard to maintain when people realised that all stars were suns - must have made the god in question seem a little less special!)
Eclipses are not signs from god (They are in fact very simple to understand, easily demonstrated with a torch and a tennis ball).
And all religious types still send their kids to schools that teach the above facts! If your happy to let your kids be told the facts when so many billions of people with cast iron faith used to believe otherwise then why can these people not have a logical reasoned review of their current beliefs?
And don't get me started on those that don't accept darwins theories of evolution. When you start believing things you can't see over things that have been seen and documented then religion isn't an excuse. You're just crazy!
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- Original Poster
- #6,344
Today is also the birthday of Swaminarayan Jayanti
(although some articles I've read say 2nd April)
This guy is a Hindu God - or, more correctly, a avatar put on earth by God - to banish evil (where have we heard that before) as lately as the 18th Century. He has written a lot of his own scriptures and has some rather nice shrines and churches built for him.
Swaminarayan
Portrait of Swaminarayan under a Neem tree in Gadhada
Date of Birth 2 April 1781
Place of birth Chhapaiya, Uttar Pradesh, India
Birth Ghanshyam Pande
Date of death 1 June 1830
Place of death Gadhada, Gujarat, India
Guru/Teacher Ramanand Swami
Philosophy Vaishnavism
Titles/Honors Founded Swaminarayan Sampraday, venerated as an Avatar of god Narayana in the Swaminarayan Faith
According to legend, it was events that took place at Badarikashram, the abode of NarNarayan, that led to the incarnation of Swaminarayan.[5] It is believed that Narayan took birth as Swaminarayan due to a curse of Rishi Durvasa.[5] With the advent of kaliyug, immoral situation had spread in India and evil people had also tremendously increased.[5] Hence he had accepted the curse, which was due to his own will, to take avatar on earth to destroy evil and establish Ekantik-dharm (Religion based on morality, knowledge, non-attachment and devotion).[5] Important Hindu scriptures such as the Geeta and Bhagavat Purana confirm that Narayan discends in human form to destroy evil (though there is no direct reference to Swaminarayan). Swaminarayan followers specifically interpret the Vishwaksena Samhita, 11th part of the Brahma Purana, as well as the Skanda Purana as giving a direct reference to Narayan taking birth in the form of Swaminarayan. In the liturgy of the sect, the story of the announcement of the coming birth of Krishna in the Bhagavata Purana is similar to the story of the birth of Swaminarayan, and merging of the images and stories of Swaminarayan and Krishna has occurred.[6] In Vaishnava mythology Uddhava, who is considered to be the chief disciple of Krishna, was ordained to spread his message in a future birth, and some groups of Swaminarayan Faith believe that he reappeared as Ramananda Swami to prepare the way for another manifestation of Krishna.[7][8]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhagwan_Swaminarayan
(although some articles I've read say 2nd April)
This guy is a Hindu God - or, more correctly, a avatar put on earth by God - to banish evil (where have we heard that before) as lately as the 18th Century. He has written a lot of his own scriptures and has some rather nice shrines and churches built for him.
Swaminarayan
Portrait of Swaminarayan under a Neem tree in Gadhada
Date of Birth 2 April 1781
Place of birth Chhapaiya, Uttar Pradesh, India
Birth Ghanshyam Pande
Date of death 1 June 1830
Place of death Gadhada, Gujarat, India
Guru/Teacher Ramanand Swami
Philosophy Vaishnavism
Titles/Honors Founded Swaminarayan Sampraday, venerated as an Avatar of god Narayana in the Swaminarayan Faith
According to legend, it was events that took place at Badarikashram, the abode of NarNarayan, that led to the incarnation of Swaminarayan.[5] It is believed that Narayan took birth as Swaminarayan due to a curse of Rishi Durvasa.[5] With the advent of kaliyug, immoral situation had spread in India and evil people had also tremendously increased.[5] Hence he had accepted the curse, which was due to his own will, to take avatar on earth to destroy evil and establish Ekantik-dharm (Religion based on morality, knowledge, non-attachment and devotion).[5] Important Hindu scriptures such as the Geeta and Bhagavat Purana confirm that Narayan discends in human form to destroy evil (though there is no direct reference to Swaminarayan). Swaminarayan followers specifically interpret the Vishwaksena Samhita, 11th part of the Brahma Purana, as well as the Skanda Purana as giving a direct reference to Narayan taking birth in the form of Swaminarayan. In the liturgy of the sect, the story of the announcement of the coming birth of Krishna in the Bhagavata Purana is similar to the story of the birth of Swaminarayan, and merging of the images and stories of Swaminarayan and Krishna has occurred.[6] In Vaishnava mythology Uddhava, who is considered to be the chief disciple of Krishna, was ordained to spread his message in a future birth, and some groups of Swaminarayan Faith believe that he reappeared as Ramananda Swami to prepare the way for another manifestation of Krishna.[7][8]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhagwan_Swaminarayan
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- Original Poster
- #6,346
I like this one:
We know that Christianity is true because the Gospel writers, inspired by God who can make no error, recorded the founding events. For example, on the first Easter morning, the visitors to the tomb were greeted by which of the following:
A young man (Mark 16:5)
- No, no, it was no man, it was an angel (Matthew 28:2-5)
- You're both wrong, it was two men (Luke 24:4)
- Damn it, there was nobody there (John 20:1-2)
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- Original Poster
- #6,347
Whilst the Christians celebrate all the various bits of Easter (yesterday was Palm Sunday where Jesus, having read what he had to do to fullfil prophecy, rode into town on a donkey. Instead, presumably, of a Ford Prefect).
Other religions have their own things to think about.
Tomorrow it's the Jains:
Mahavira Jayanti
In Jainism, Mahavir Jayanti is the most important religious holiday. It celebrates the birth of Mahavira, the last Tirthankara. He was born on the 13th day of the rising moon of Chaitra, in either 599 BC or 615 BC (depending on religious tradition).
The holiday occurs in late March or early April on the Gregorian calendar.
On Mahavir Jayanthi, Jain temples are decorated with flags. In the morning the idol of Mahavira is given a ceremonial bath called the 'abhishek'. It is then placed in a cradle and carried in a procession around the neighbourhood. The devotees will make offerings of milk, rice, fruit, incense, lamps and water to the people in procession. Some sections of the community even participate in a grand procession. Lectures are held to preach the path of virtue. People meditate and offer prayers. Donations are collected to save the cows from slaughter. Pilgrims from all parts of the country visit the ancient Jain Temples at Girnar and Palitana in Gujarat on this day.
Mahavir Jayanti is also celebrated during the 8 day holy period of Paryushan. During this period, pre-defined readings are carried out from a holi scripture - Kalpa Sutra that contains biographies of Jain Tirthankars. Biography of Mahavir Swami, particularly His birth, is read on the day of Mahavir Jayanti.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahavir_Jayanti
.
Paryushana
The word 'Paryushana' means 'to stay in one place', which signifies a time of reflection and repentance for the Jain devotee. Originally this was primarily a monastic practice.
This festival consists of eight days of intensive fasting, repentance and pujas. Often monks will be invited to give teachings from the Jain scriptures.
By the way, the Janes have one of the best written moral codes of all religions. I may post it if the trouble with East London telephone exchange outages is resolved today
Other religions have their own things to think about.
Tomorrow it's the Jains:
Mahavira Jayanti
In Jainism, Mahavir Jayanti is the most important religious holiday. It celebrates the birth of Mahavira, the last Tirthankara. He was born on the 13th day of the rising moon of Chaitra, in either 599 BC or 615 BC (depending on religious tradition).
The holiday occurs in late March or early April on the Gregorian calendar.
On Mahavir Jayanthi, Jain temples are decorated with flags. In the morning the idol of Mahavira is given a ceremonial bath called the 'abhishek'. It is then placed in a cradle and carried in a procession around the neighbourhood. The devotees will make offerings of milk, rice, fruit, incense, lamps and water to the people in procession. Some sections of the community even participate in a grand procession. Lectures are held to preach the path of virtue. People meditate and offer prayers. Donations are collected to save the cows from slaughter. Pilgrims from all parts of the country visit the ancient Jain Temples at Girnar and Palitana in Gujarat on this day.
Mahavir Jayanti is also celebrated during the 8 day holy period of Paryushan. During this period, pre-defined readings are carried out from a holi scripture - Kalpa Sutra that contains biographies of Jain Tirthankars. Biography of Mahavir Swami, particularly His birth, is read on the day of Mahavir Jayanti.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahavir_Jayanti
.
Paryushana
The word 'Paryushana' means 'to stay in one place', which signifies a time of reflection and repentance for the Jain devotee. Originally this was primarily a monastic practice.
This festival consists of eight days of intensive fasting, repentance and pujas. Often monks will be invited to give teachings from the Jain scriptures.
By the way, the Janes have one of the best written moral codes of all religions. I may post it if the trouble with East London telephone exchange outages is resolved today
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E
easyasit
The simple fact of the matter is, back in the days where Gods were suspected as being responsible for the harvest, for eclipses, for droughts. It was the time where mankind had no idea of the cause of these phenomena.
It was (i believe) around the time of pythagoras, that we started to realise that laws of nature do follow easily understandable laws.
This gave rise to Pythagoras school of maths which was a little cross between a cult and a free masonarly type of thing (ref Fermats last Theorem, by Simon Sing
Given the fact that we evolved to understanding the laws which govened things, and were therefore able to study them and know for example, when to evacuate people in the case of a volcanic eruption, or during a hurricane.
Other laws to gave birth to and developed other sciences (like chemisty for example)
I do still believe however that given how these processes work together that they do not replace God, moreover i think it compliments God. These things did not just happen by chance now did they?
Does the Watch need a watch maker?
Just a though.
It was (i believe) around the time of pythagoras, that we started to realise that laws of nature do follow easily understandable laws.
This gave rise to Pythagoras school of maths which was a little cross between a cult and a free masonarly type of thing (ref Fermats last Theorem, by Simon Sing
Given the fact that we evolved to understanding the laws which govened things, and were therefore able to study them and know for example, when to evacuate people in the case of a volcanic eruption, or during a hurricane.
Other laws to gave birth to and developed other sciences (like chemisty for example)
I do still believe however that given how these processes work together that they do not replace God, moreover i think it compliments God. These things did not just happen by chance now did they?
Does the Watch need a watch maker?
Just a though.
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- Original Poster
- #6,349
We pretty much understand how volcanos and hurricanes work. Chance seems to have some hand in them.
Yes.
Does that argument apply to life the universe and everything?
1. Yes. Then who/what made God?
2. No. We might not be able to comprehend this answer, but I'm assured it is quite possible, actually probable
3. Don't know. Probably the only sane answer.
What has that to do with belief in an all loving god that died for our sins and intervenes daily in our lives? Nothing.
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easyasit
Simple fact of the matter is, people do claim to see things when they experience near death situations. All be it easy to fob off, however, when thousands report similar experiences can they all be wrong?
The use of the word, happen by chance to me is a scientific cop out as is the word anomoli, merely words invented to justify ignoring the less obvious.
There are of course instances of this in the universe, which is why cosmology as we know it is in the process of going through a renaissance as we speak.
As for a creater of God, well perhaps when i meet God, i will ask God (trying not to use the word him or he here!)
I am surprised this thread has lived on for as long as it has, interesting reading
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easyasit
How would you expect God to reply?
Striking his laws into tablets as he did with Moses? :-D
I guess the lord does work in mysterious ways!
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- Original Poster
- #6,357
Thanks for that.
I wonder what the next 'isn't nature wonderful; god did it' thing will be?
Paley's Watchmaker was killed off by Evolutionary Theory, Anthropy will be killed by a better understanding of how Big Physics works.
I suppose the next logical step is to say 'obviously quantum physics is too weird to have not been designed - albeit by someone who was obviously deranged'
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You make big statements in the hope that somebody will believe them......your constancy of saying them doesn't make them true.
You keep on implying that "if complex things must have been intelligently designed by something more complex than themselves, then anything posited as this complex designer (i.e. God) must also have been designed by something yet more complex."
However the logic used is flawed. Anyone who creates time and the "laws of the universe" would not be bounded by them. The laws did not exist until they were created. So time did not exist until it was created. So why would anyone think that the same rules would apply to the person who created them?
"Who created God"? It's like saying "what happened 5 minutes before time was created".
You are using the laws that have been given to us...........anyone who creates these laws would be outside of them otherwise they wouldn't need to create the laws. You are falling into the trap of using what you know to try to argue against what you do not know.
But you'll keep on saying the same old tired things in the hope that you sound convincing.
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That Oystein fella, ex-christian astrocosmolowhateverist, kindly tried to teach me some quantum physics, but my brain collapsed. I did last long enough to learn that it is the silliest of the 'goddidit' efforts...
Happy Easter bunnies!
I can't find this cartoon I saw by nonstampcollector on youtube...There's a knock at the door, and when the guy answers who should it be but Jesus....
'Hello, I'm Jesus, I've come to save you.'
'Save me? from what?'
'From what I'm going to do to you if you don't do what I say!'
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