Knocking down an internal wall.

[GBTradesmen]

I am looking to knock the wall down between my kitchen and dining room to create a bigger space. I don't think it's load bearing but will need an expert to check.

Will the builder be able to tell me when I ask for a quote, or is this something a structural engineer would be needed for? Also, if I need an engineer does anyone know how much it will cost for them to have a look?

 

[cjd]

If there's a wall in the same place directly above the downstairs wall, it's obviously load bearing.

If floor joists in the ceiling above run parallel to the wall you're removing, it's unlikely to be loadbearing. (You can find out whether this is the case by looking which way the floor boards go - they run at right angles to the joists.)

 

[An Oasis]

Also, if I need an engineer does anyone know how much it will cost for them to have a look?

For a small job you're wasting your money using a SE they will just write a report stating the obvious and highlighting potential problems...

CJD pointed out the obvious. Even if it is load bearing stick in some props and a RCJ and there you go, basic stuff. Still got piccies of the last one I did, great fun go for it.

 

[GBTradesmen]

Thanks for that. There is no wall above which is a good sign, and the upstairs floorboards are at right angles to it. Also, the wall doesn't run the width of the house.
Looks hopefull.

 

[estwig]

If there's a wall in the same place directly above the downstairs wall, it's obviously load bearing.

No, not at all, this is very wrong, a lot of internal 'walls above walls' for want of a better phrase. The top wall (this is awful terminology, but I can't think of nothing better) will often be a couple of inches off from the bottom wall and supported by double joists. Thus the bottom wall can be safely removed.

The only way to be sure is a tape measure and crow bar, take a measure, lift some floorboards and apply liberal amounts of common sense.

 

[cjd]

No, not at all, this is very wrong, a lot of internal 'walls above walls' for want of a better phrase. The top wall (this is awful terminology, but I can't think of nothing better) will often be a couple of inches off from the bottom wall and supported by double joists.
The only way to be sure is a tape measure and crow bar, take a measure, lift some floorboards and apply liberal amounts of common sense.

Jeez, I would want to live in a house with 8 feet of brickwork support on a couple of ceiling joists....

 

[estwig]

Jeez, I would want to live in a house with 8 feet of brickwork support on a couple of ceiling joists....

You probably already do, it's common practice and is structurally sound. There floor joists not ceiling joists.

Colin, stick to phones mate, nothing dangerous about a telephone!!

 

[cjd]

You probably already do, it's common practice and is structurally sound. There floor joists not ceiling joists.

Colin, stick to phones mate, nothing dangerous about a telephone!!

You'd be surprised what I do - I've rebuilt 3 houses and I can tell you that none of my walls are suspended on wood - except stud partitions of course. The Victorians did some weird things - I found one of my homes had virtually no foundations, just broken bricks on clay.

But I'm sure you're right, a pair of 7" joists can take a reasonable load - you wouldn't put one directly above a brick wall though would you? You'd just carry on building straight up.

I hope you wear that hard hat indoors

 

[Beachcomber]

.......stick to phones mate, nothing dangerous about a telephone!!

You've not experianced a visiting mother in law when she gets stuck into the shopping channels

 

[estwig]

You'd be surprised what I do - I've rebuilt 3 houses and I can tell you that none of my walls are suspended on wood - except stud partitions of course. The Victorians did some weird things - I found one of my homes had virtually no foundations, just broken bricks on clay.

But I'm sure you're right, a pair of 7" joists can take a reasonable load - you wouldn't put one directly above a brick wall though would you? You'd just carry on building straight up.

I hope you wear that hard hat indoors

Your right, you would carry on building straight up, it's just a lotta the time the walls are slightly offset, with the top wall supported on double joists.

Victorian houses didn't need foundations, solid 9" thick walls, with very little loading on the external walls of the house. Modern cavity construction with an internal skin of thermalite blocks (breeze blocks) or timber frame, is a lot weaker in it's design, so it needs substantial foundations to stop it falling over!!

Victorian houses didn't have damp proof courses or insulation, they lived in a time when coal was cheap, keeping your house warm and dry was relatively easy to do. Different construction for a different era and a different way of life

 

[cjd]

I have a theory about Victorian houses. The ones we see today are the ones that didn't fall down......

 

[Beachcomber]

I have a theory about Victorian houses. The ones we see today are the ones that didn't fall down......

Most of the houses in Portsmouth that survived the blitz only did so because of their shallow foundations on clay which could absorb more of the shock than structures using a more modern foundation method.

 

[cjd]

Most of the houses in Portsmouth that survived the blitz only did so because of their shallow foundations on clay which could absorb more of the shock than structures using a more modern foundation method.

And use of lime mortar that moves around without cracking. Also most were terraces that hold themselves up.

On the other hand, they had a habit of using really bad materials where they weren't going to be seen - like in my house's crap foundations that had to be underpinned. Apparently many just fell down.

It's fun looking a terraced houses with two story bay windows - it's hard to find any that aren't moving in a different direction to the house that they're almost attached to.

But they're all now over 100 years old and they make modern houses look like the cr@p that most of them are.

 

[Bruvver]

GBTradesmen...... what would a person with your contacts be in need of advice about building structure on business forum ?

 

[skyhi2]

Got to admire them cjd.

Must have been difficult working with just an adz,bowler hat and a steam shovel

Mind you they had pint mugs of tea off to a tee

Skyhi2.

 

[An Oasis]

...It's fun looking a terraced houses with two story bay windows - it's hard to find any that aren't moving in a different direction to the house that they're almost attached to....

and throw in wild brine extraction and watch the insurance companies suck air as they tell you that the property could collapse at any minute - yeah right.

 

[Estimator]

'Knocking through' seems to have become a modern pastime.
Was it Carol Smillie who started it?
I would always prefer a separate kitchen though if there are small kids around.
And knocking through the living/ dining is now in fashion.
It's been done so much in my street I often think the stability of the terrace must be in question - I keep expecting the lot to go down like a pack of cards one day if we get an over enthusiastic DIY-er at play.

 

[James1980]

Reminds me of our DIY nightmare.

A few years ago I was living with my girlfriend in the ground floor of a council flat. The kitchen was cramped and a lot of space was taken up by what could best be described as two small inner-rooms which served as cupboards. If we knocked down the cinderblock walls that made up these cupboards, the kitchen would be a lot more spacious.

We couldn't afford a structural engineer so we consulted our neighbour, who assured us it would be safe to do so. I browsed the internet and what I read (re the direction of the walls) suggested that it was a "partition" wall, and therefore disposable. We were itching to go ahead so we popped down to Wickes and acquired two pairs of goggles (safety first!) and a club hammer. After dinner we set to work smashing the walls, which was highly therapeutic but also very dusty. It was clearly not going to get finished that evening so we called it a night.

Early that morning we were woken by an loud, unpleasant noise.























...



















...our alarm clock! What, you thought the flat had collapsed? Come on! I didn't pay any attention to the scant information I had found online, our neighbour had knocked her own wall down years ago to no ill effect but most importantly we arranged for an expert from the council to visit the property in person and give us the go ahead.

The DIY nightmare? The callused fingers and dusty living room we had afterwards. Disaster.



James