Kier Starmer stepping down

Newchodge

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    Life is too short to argue with AI

    Trickle down is essentially about cutting taxes to encourage spending and growth. It might be targeted, like the recent cut in VAT for hospitality (which seems to have had little effect on spend), or general such as cuts in PAYE or corporation tax - used to good effect (for a while) by Thatcher & Raegan - both ended badly

    Arguably the opposite is the traditional labour stance of tax & spend - kind of tax-funded QE

    I've no idea about neo-liberal policies.
    One of the problems with cutting VAT is that it reduces the total amount spent by the supplier, so if they just maintain the same price as before the cut they make bigger (or some) profits. I think that was seen in the zero rating of sanitary products and the reduced VAT on pub sales. No efect watsoever on the price to the consumer.
     
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    fisicx

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    Can you even remember why VAT happened? It was a French invention and was introduced in the UK when we joined the common market (as it once was). So in theory after Brexit we should have got rid of VAT…
     
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    Newchodge

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    Can you even remember why VAT happened? It was a French invention and was introduced in the UK when we joined the common market (as it once was). So in theory after Brexit we should have got rid of VAT…
    did we have a purchase tax before VAT?
     
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    fisicx

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    HFE Signs

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    The idea behind a VAT cut isn't simply to collect less tax. It's to stimulate spending and business activity so that a growing economy generates more tax from higher sales, profits and wages.
     
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    Data Swami

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    So level the playing field by removing VAT altogether, but I still don't see anyone offering a viable alternative to replace the VAT income for HMRC.
    You dont need to replace it as I said before consumption in the economy will result in taxes via other routes such as corp tax etc. and then other gov spending can further improve their tax in take too
     
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    fisicx

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    You dont need to replace it as I said before consumption in the economy will result in taxes via other routes such as corp tax etc. and then other gov spending can further improve their tax in take too
    Vat in 2025 was £171billion. You would need an awful lot of other taxes to equal this figure. Booze alone was about £12billion.

    Corporation tax was about £95billion. Which means you @Data Swami could be paying almost 3 times as much corporation tax to compensate for not paying VAT.
     
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    Data Swami

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    Vat in 2025 was £171billion. You would need an awful lot of other taxes to equal this figure. Booze alone was about £12billion.

    Corporation tax was about £95billion. Which means you @Data Swami could be paying almost 3 times as much corporation tax to compensate for not paying VAT.
    Look back at what I've always spoken to in terms of the economy and neo liberal economics. If you look at the breakdown of VAT it's mostly paid by large organisations in terms of the % paid.

    The tax implications from no vat would be increase profits but again I stated already VaT removal is not a silver bullet for the economy. It's a friction to transaction in the market which we have become used to especially for small businesses.

    The economy is not a balancing of books government spending is able to push economic activity, greater spending on the local economy and so greater economic activity for smes in the local economy if it creates greater disposable income. That would be a measure that is bottom up that can increase corp tax on pull without increasing the tax burden. But again would require more Keynesian economics to push for much more in terms of infrastructure etc to enable more more disposable income for people to spend in the local economy and so it generates more income tax due to being more affordable to hire due to higher demand and also profits due to higher income kept. Plus get rid of the issue where most SMEs don't actually get a fair deal with vat as they don't have supplies that offset the amount of vat they need to pay.
     
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    A lot of talk about fiddling with tax and blaming Thatcher (who left power 30 odd years ago) and very little on productivity - apart from dismissing it as something that big consultancies broke.

    No wonder UK is in such a mess.

    raise VAT threshold to £500k immediately and progressively to 1M. Limited impact on actual revenue, big drop in small companies making mistakes, calling HMRC and generally being annoying whilst contributing little.

    Simplify tax code, drastically.

    No VAT on training/educational products/services - including schools obviously.
    education and training expenses fully tax deductible
    free education and training for unemployed
    Sliding discounts based on income for all earning under average wage.
     
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    Data Swami

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    A lot of talk about fiddling with tax and blaming Thatcher (who left power 30 odd years ago) and very little on productivity - apart from dismissing it as something that big consultancies broke.

    No wonder UK is in such a mess.

    raise VAT threshold to £500k immediately and progressively to 1M. Limited impact on actual revenue, big drop in small companies making mistakes, calling HMRC and generally being annoying whilst contributing little.

    Simplify tax code, drastically.

    No VAT on training/educational products/services - including schools obviously.
    education and training expenses fully tax deductible
    free education and training for unemployed
    Sliding discounts based on income for all earning under average wage.
    The reason to blame is because of how they embedded Neoliberal economics into the treasury ensuring a focus on balancing the books. That's why it's there to blame. And productivity side of things I referenced one element which has had a real impact.

    And yes because of that economics that is why the UK is in such a mess that economic policy that they stuck to for decades is why our public goods like energy, water etc have sky rocketed in price, it's why austerity caused us to stay in a recession for much longer and make it so we really never properly recovered from the financial crash and why disposable income is so low.

    Sure raising the threshold would be one step. I never said removing VAT was a magic thing to solve everything. It's a tax that enables friction on transactions.

    Really action on the UK economy would be a step away from Neoliberal economics and removing the concept of the economy being like a household. Focus on infrastructure that creates jobs and brings down the costs of public goods and enhance government spending so it focuses on disposable income and the consumption side of the economy rather than the focus on the investment side of the economy. That way you get more economic activity especially in local businesses so that then they can continue with creating jobs etc. Tax is one element but until those other economic solutions are applied too it will still be the argument of how you balance the "books" which as an economy doesn't work as the past few decades have shown and resulted in far greater inequality and poverty
     
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    Data Swami

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    I really don't think you know what you are talking about!
    I know it's difficult to understand economic principles and how they apply in real life. I can point you to a few courses on the economy if that will help?
    How does that work? VAT is a tax paid by consumers. Most large organisations will be VAT registered so they reclaim any VAT they are charged.
    It's how HMRC calculate it so because the receipts are calculated on what the organisations pay that's why it shows are mostly coming from large organisations.
     
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    DontAsk

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    Can you share any data to back that up?
    I think what they are trying to say is that larger organisations will presumably have larger VAT registered sales (more value added) so will still make larger VAT returns.

    The fact is, however, that the VAT paid in the VAT return is paid by their customers, not the organisation.

    The organisation is merely an unpaid tax collector.
     
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    Data Swami

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    Can you share any data to back that up?

    We as consumers pay it out our pockets and also businesses buying with whatever they purchase and can offset with their sales depending on the scheme they are on. But the receipts are from businesses as we as individuals dont register to pay VAT etc. Its also interesting they group wholesale and retail together in their stats.

    So its still a tax that causes friction in transactions and has other knock on effects especially when rates are different across products etc. Many of these friction taxes are there to try and manage consumption in the economy by artificially raising the cost of certain goods (like whats been said before there used to be a tax on purchases for luxury goods but VAT took over from that) The reason they use that sort of measure is because in the long term it can be used to attempt to keep inflation down (but they often ignore the actual cause of inflation especially in this current state where necessities like energy and food are the actual items that are driving inflation.) The other measures they use to prevent inflation is interest rates via the BoE which they are just as culpable for causing issues for disposable income as with inflation they have continued to really want to raise interest rates even though that would reduce disposable income for people even more as its not going to make them save as the interest rates have no impact on the actual thing that is growing in cost. And so that has a knock on effect of further reducing consumption in the market. It does make investment slightly more attractive to outsiders but again there is no "trickle down" for regular people.
     
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    DontAsk

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    We as consumers pay it out our pockets and also businesses buying with whatever they purchase and can offset with their sales depending on the scheme they are on. But the receipts are from businesses as we as individuals dont register to pay VAT etc. Its also interesting they group wholesale and retail together in their stats.

    "Net Home VAT receipts are equal to Home VAT payments made to HMRC by registered taxpayers minus Home VAT repayments made from HMRC to taxpayers."

    I.e. business pay the difference between what they collect and what they pay. If they collect more than they pay then they are paying over what's left of what their customers have paid.

    The amount of VAT businesses pay on their supplies is stripped out of the HMRC report.

    It's consumers who are paying the VAT, not businesses who are just unpaid tax collectors.
     
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    Data Swami

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    "Net Home VAT receipts are equal to Home VAT payments made to HMRC by registered taxpayers minus Home VAT repayments made from HMRC to taxpayers."

    I.e. business pay the difference between what they collect and what they pay. If they collect more than they pay then they are paying over what's left of what their customers have paid.

    The amount of VAT businesses pay on their supplies is stripped out of the HMRC report.

    It's consumers who are paying the VAT, not businesses who are just unpaid tax collectors.
    Literally what i said ;)
     
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    How are you defining neo liberal economics and how do you think it has affected the Treasury?

    Energy prices have risen globally for two reasons, supply issues - ie the various wars and the move to Green/Net Zero - this is expensive and is reshaping the grid. These are nothing at all to do with the Treasury - the only bit the Government actually contols is whether to add the costs to general taxation or directly to energy. Our government adds it to the energy prices to attempt to reduce demand, other do not.

    Water prices are set by the government, so as far from the free markets as possible. We have massively increased water demand - more people and not built any new reservoirs in 30 years. Now we have to build a lot and fix the rest of the infrastructure all at once.

    If the government followed your advice and forgets about trying to balance the books, who is paying back the debt and when? Or we just keep borrowing forever?
     
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    Newchodge

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    Water prices are set by the government, so as far from the free markets as possible. We have massively increased water demand - more people and not built any new reservoirs in 30 years. Now we have to build a lot and fix the rest of the infrastructure all at once.
    But why have the private companies who took over the water supply on the promse of investing, not built any reservoirs or invested in the infrastructure as they promised when they bought our water? Because they loaded the companies with debt in order to pay huge amounts to their shareholders. Basic neoliberalism.
     
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    But why have the private companies who took over the water supply on the promse of investing, not built any reservoirs or invested in the infrastructure as they promised when they bought our water? Because they loaded the companies with debt in order to pay huge amounts to their shareholders. Basic neoliberalism.

    No, blocked by planning permission, judicial reviews and NIMBYism. In the exact same way as HS2.

    All elements of the water industry are heavily regulated by Ofwat.

    Not a neoliberal in sight.
     
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    Data Swami

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    How are you defining neo liberal economics and how do you think it has affected the Treasury?

    Energy prices have risen globally for two reasons, supply issues - ie the various wars and the move to Green/Net Zero - this is expensive and is reshaping the grid. These are nothing at all to do with the Treasury - the only bit the Government actually contols is whether to add the costs to general taxation or directly to energy. Our government adds it to the energy prices to attempt to reduce demand, other do not.

    Water prices are set by the government, so as far from the free markets as possible. We have massively increased water demand - more people and not built any new reservoirs in 30 years. Now we have to build a lot and fix the rest of the infrastructure all at once.

    If the government followed your advice and forgets about trying to balance the books, who is paying back the debt and when? Or we just keep borrowing forever?
    Neoliberal Economics/Neoliberalism is basically focused on privatisation, cutting government spending to "balance the books" so austerity and treating the economy like a household budget. Deregulating certain industries (ie banking which led to the financial crash). And a focus on private investment side of the economy while ignoring the consumption side of the economy. There is a bigger definition but practically that is what we see from those economic and political policies/philosophies embeded from the Thatcher and Reagan age.

    Sure Energy Prices are due to global prices but also significant extraction of profits from our natural resources. Especially since the regulator pegs our pricing on Gas rather than other sources when calculating the domestic limit and then there is the extortion of small businesses. I didnt reference the gov controlling it via the treasury. I stated BoE makes the situation worse as they try and manage inflation driven by energy with interest rate increases which does nothing to that cause of the inflation but increases costs for people with mortgages etc.

    Water yes is set by a regulator but that regulator is toothless look at how much waste is getting pumped into the rivers on a daily basis. The private organisations who own the water companies have invested nothing in the infrastructure and have cut and cut and cut whatever they can while extracting all their dividends and saddling those companies in debt.

    Both of those public goods should really be centred around powering and supplying the country rather than the extraction of profits to megacorps. But both of those examples are great examples of neoliberal economics of passing our natural resources to private entities to profit off of while they continue to increase the cost of these necessary goods for us. And they pass on those green changes to consumers rather than investing in the infrastructure to ensure loss of energy is changed and that they can meet the actual demand. That i put at the foot of those private businesses.

    Again balancing of the books is not a principle for an economy it is a facet of Neoliberal Economics. Government spending actively engages the economy and can increase the amount it takes in via spending in the right places. Increase the amount of consumption in the market from regular people will result in a greater take of government taxation through multiple linked routes.

    Everything about the balancing of the books since the financial crash has resulted in huge Austerity measures implemented cutting vast swathes of services that reduced crime, helped social mobility and ensured activity in the economy etc. However borrowing has continued to grow. Why? Because those cuts resulted in a huge cut to spending power and consumption in the market. Add on the impact of energy costs skyrocketing meaning even less power to spend in the local economy resulting in less and less small businesses, high street shops and dying town centres. Resulting in less jobs etc.

    All of these neoliberal economic policies have had a knock on effect of making us far poorer and shrunk the disposable income of everyday people and making the money in their pocket stretch no where near where it used to.

    My statements on Keynesian economics being the answer are not just about spending for spendings sake. Its to focus spending where it will make and impact. Address the fundamental issues we face. Like firstly the fact our natural resources should be in the hands of the people and not private organisations that extract from everyday people for more and more extortionate profits just because everyone needs it. That means the government spending on infrastructure for these stays within that organisation there is no need for profits but focus on optimisation to make things more efficient and achieve its goals for the whole country. All of those would generate additional taxation and job creation ensuring its able to sustain itself.

    And then other government spending to 1 help the workforce to be far more healthy and working at their optimal rate which we have seen has been on a down turn especially with access to medical needs and removing the need for supplementing with expensive private hospitals.

    But then also ensuring we have a healthy consumption side of the economy as that in turn creates investment due to there being far more opportunities to sell within various different markets and so in turn creates more jobs and more taxation from regular routes. No need to mess with the tax system or income tax but create a system that feeds itself rather than rely on private investment for the economic growth and status
     
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    Newchodge

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    No, blocked by planning permission, judicial reviews and NIMBYism. In the exact same way as HS2.

    All elements of the water industry are heavily regulated by Ofwat.

    Not a neoliberal in sight.
    Do you mean that the water companies have not been loaded with debt an have not made huge dividend payments to shareholders?
     
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    Neoliberal Economics/Neoliberalism is basically focused on privatisation, cutting government spending to "balance the books" so austerity and treating the economy like a household budget. Deregulating certain industries (ie banking which led to the financial crash). And a focus on private investment side of the economy while ignoring the consumption side of the economy. There is a bigger definition but practically that is what we see from those economic and political policies/philosophies embeded from the Thatcher and Reagan age.

    Sure Energy Prices are due to global prices but also significant extraction of profits from our natural resources. Especially since the regulator pegs our pricing on Gas rather than other sources when calculating the domestic limit and then there is the extortion of small businesses. I didnt reference the gov controlling it via the treasury. I stated BoE makes the situation worse as they try and manage inflation driven by energy with interest rate increases which does nothing to that cause of the inflation but increases costs for people with mortgages etc.

    Water yes is set by a regulator but that regulator is toothless look at how much waste is getting pumped into the rivers on a daily basis. The private organisations who own the water companies have invested nothing in the infrastructure and have cut and cut and cut whatever they can while extracting all their dividends and saddling those companies in debt.

    Both of those public goods should really be centred around powering and supplying the country rather than the extraction of profits to megacorps. But both of those examples are great examples of neoliberal economics of passing our natural resources to private entities to profit off of while they continue to increase the cost of these necessary goods for us. And they pass on those green changes to consumers rather than investing in the infrastructure to ensure loss of energy is changed and that they can meet the actual demand. That i put at the foot of those private businesses.

    Again balancing of the books is not a principle for an economy it is a facet of Neoliberal Economics. Government spending actively engages the economy and can increase the amount it takes in via spending in the right places. Increase the amount of consumption in the market from regular people will result in a greater take of government taxation through multiple linked routes.

    Everything about the balancing of the books since the financial crash has resulted in huge Austerity measures implemented cutting vast swathes of services that reduced crime, helped social mobility and ensured activity in the economy etc. However borrowing has continued to grow. Why? Because those cuts resulted in a huge cut to spending power and consumption in the market. Add on the impact of energy costs skyrocketing meaning even less power to spend in the local economy resulting in less and less small businesses, high street shops and dying town centres. Resulting in less jobs etc.

    All of these neoliberal economic policies have had a knock on effect of making us far poorer and shrunk the disposable income of everyday people and making the money in their pocket stretch no where near where it used to.

    My statements on Keynesian economics being the answer are not just about spending for spendings sake. Its to focus spending where it will make and impact. Address the fundamental issues we face. Like firstly the fact our natural resources should be in the hands of the people and not private organisations that extract from everyday people for more and more extortionate profits just because everyone needs it. That means the government spending on infrastructure for these stays within that organisation there is no need for profits but focus on optimisation to make things more efficient and achieve its goals for the whole country. All of those would generate additional taxation and job creation ensuring its able to sustain itself.

    And then other government spending to 1 help the workforce to be far more healthy and working at their optimal rate which we have seen has been on a down turn especially with access to medical needs and removing the need for supplementing with expensive private hospitals.

    But then also ensuring we have a healthy consumption side of the economy as that in turn creates investment due to there being far more opportunities to sell within various different markets and so in turn creates more jobs and more taxation from regular routes. No need to mess with the tax system or income tax but create a system that feeds itself rather than rely on private investment for the economic growth and status
    Can you show me a country that has done these things successfully?
     
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    Do you mean that the water companies have not been loaded with debt an have not made huge dividend payments to shareholders?
    We were discussing infrastructure, or do you agree that the problem is actually projects being blocked by planning permission, judicial reviews and NIMBYism?

    Happy to move on to dividends if you do.
     
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    Data Swami

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    No, blocked by planning permission, judicial reviews and NIMBYism. In the exact same way as HS2.

    All elements of the water industry are heavily regulated by Ofwat.

    Not a neoliberal in sight.
    A quarter of privatised water companies underspent their capital investment allowances between 2010 and 2025. Companies like Anglian Water and South West Water left hundreds of millions unspent on infrastructure while continuing to pay out large dividends to shareholders. NIMBYism has been a problem but its been cracked down on (but also there should be a balance as look at that warehouse that got approved planning in wigan). However that does not get away from their upgrading of current infrastructure and also a number have closed down their infrastructure too like the desalination plant. And when they have looked at reservoirs etc the private orgs focus is usually only on short term cost savings over actual major infrastructure enhancements.
     
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    Newchodge

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    We were discussing infrastructure, or do you agree that the problem is actually projects being blocked by planning permission, judicial reviews and NIMBYism?

    Happy to move on to dividends if you do.
    I think I have made my position perfectly clear. Do you mean that the water companies have not been loaded with debt an have not made huge dividend payments to shareholders?
     
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    Data Swami

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    Can you show me a country that has done these things successfully?
    Australias approach to the financial crash is a good example. While we enacted Austerity they ensured the consumption side of the economy was healthy and they managed to offset the collapse in private sector demand and avoided a recession.

    Biggest one is Roosevelts new deal in the US which got them out of the depression.

    China in someways too with the way they have done their spending during the financial crash.

    Pretty much every european country too implemented Keynesian economics after the WWs until the 70s.

    Now this doesnt mean running a deficit all the time its running a deficit during down turns which enables you to pay off in the boom times and save money.
     
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    Data Swami

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    Not what the Government says, they blame planning.

    If private companies don't like long term infrastructure projects, could you explain oil fields to me?
    Well thats cus its a finite resource that is ridiculously priced on the global market so they will take the risk of a oil field. Now imagine if that resource was kept as a national resource like they have done with Norway. The profits reaped would be able to fuel much more and you can still be a part of the global market and have oil firms involved but have a far superior position to stand on in terms of taxation too like theyve managed in Norway.

    The reason infrastructure for water is not seen the same way is even though they are extracting profits with their funky routes the profit to be had compared to investment in infrastructure is alot less. Unless they are heavily subsidised by the government and again at that rate you might aswell nationalise it and keep costs down and get the infrastructure sorted ourselves and create the jobs for everyone here. Same thing applies to rail infrastructure and why HS2 is an absolute ball ache when they should really upgrade the current rail system
     
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    I think I have made my position perfectly clear. Do you mean that the water companies have not been loaded with debt an have not made huge dividend payments to shareholders?
    So if water companies are not spending and are just making huge dividend payments, how do you explain record investment levels by water companies?
     
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    fisicx

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    But the good news is they have fixed the water leak up the hill. Just need to sort out the 17 potholes.
     
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    Data Swami

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    But the good news is they have fixed the water leak up the hill. Just need to sort out the 17 potholes.
    Just do what the lot in burton did and draw penis' around them. They'll start fixing them sharpish once that happens XD
     
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