Items damaged by recipient - what would you do?

[deniser]

I sent some expensive clothing items to a customer in a large box.

Today I received two of them back with the returns form starting that they had holes in them and the position of the holes was marked with pins and paper.

I know that they did not have holes in when we sent them.

I suspect that the customer cut holes into the clothing accidentally whilst opening the box with scissors and not being careful enough.

The evidence I have to support that is:
1. customer did not contact us to report the faults which they would normally do straight away and despite this being required by our T&C and referred to again on the returns form
2. each garment was in its own plastic bag when we sent it but the returned items were amalgamated into another plastic bag from a garment which was not returned ie. the bags which would have had scissor cuts in them have not been returned and had the customer contacted us, we would have asked them to return all the packaging for inspection.
3. there is no damage to the box to indicate that the damage could have been caused in transit
4. whilst one garment may have had a remote chance of damage, the fact that two different garments have this is extremely unlikely
5. the cuts are clean scissor or knife cuts and not holes

This will cost me about £200 so I am inclined to battle it out with the customer.

Does anyone have any thoughts?

 

[fisicx]

Assuming you have it in your T&C to return items in the original packing I'd argue out out with them.

 

[quikshop]

You will lose if the customer is determined in any way, you know the DSR are stacked against retailers.

But, you could see test how determined your customer is with a "not received in a resellable condition; purposeful damage to items; considering what further action will be taken to recover costs" written response.

You have to weigh up the potential scaring the customer away against the negative verbals and social networking your customer might create... in addition to having trading standards reminding you of your obligations... and a possible chargeback that would be nigh on impossible to defend against without actual proof of product condition at the time of delivery (not at the time of posting).

Good luck either way; I've only gone after a customer aggressively a couple of times in over 10 years of retail... usually I side with caution for the sake of reputation and the greater good.

 

[darren atkinson]

Difficult one for me.

I totally agree that the evidence seems to point to the fact that they have damaged the goods however it's one of those areas where neither side can prove for sure.

If they have broken your terms and conditions of return then you could use that to with hold their refund I guess.

All I can say is that when my wife orders items from places like ASOS and they are faulty, damaged or she simply wants to return them then she always gets a refund. I realise they are a big organisation but I'm guessing that they have to factor in this 'wastage' into their business plan.

Unfortunately on my ecommerce site when something arrives damaged we can just replace the damaged component which is fairly low cost compared to the overall cost of the order.

I'm fairly easy going on things like this but I have the margins to be able to be, have you not come across issues like this before? If so how did you handle them?

 

[TotallySport]

are the holes cut, torn, or stitching?, if they are cut and torn, we wouldn't refund, stitching we would return to manufacturers.

 

[Esk247]

Could the buyer also say that the items were not adequately packaged? e.g. when we order fabrics in they have several layers of cardboard on top to prevent us slicing through the fabric when we're trying to get in to the massively over taped box.

As they say, the customer is always right...even when they're wrong.

 

[AndyP]

As irritating as it is, bottom line is that you can't prove anything. We would refund and move on. What goes around comes around...your customer might go out tonight and fall down a hole

 

[dynamic08]

As irritating as it is, bottom line is that you can't prove anything. We would refund and move on. What goes around comes around...your customer might go out tonight and fall down a hole

and get a nice compensation payout. I would fight this out all day long.

 

[BeeDub]

I'm siding with Esk here...the potential for the customer to blame you is still quite significant...even if she did catch the items herself when opening the box!

If there wasn't a layer of protection (cardboard) or words of caution on the packaging then you have potentially left yourself open to blame. Common sense should dictate that the customer shouldn't use scissors however common sense often goes awol....

The question lies whether you protected against your goods being slashed open by an eager customer with scissors....especially given the prices you quoted.

 

[kulture]

The real question is what is the customer going to do if you refuse to refund? Are they going to bluster, scream and shout; are they going to start a social network campaign to trash your reputation; or are they going to take you to court?

How much of your time are you going to waste on this? How much is your time worth?

Why not try phoning the customer and just talk to them. Explain your pont of view about scissors. See how the conversation progresses. Who knows, maybe you can agree on a compromise, perhaps a 50-50 split.

 

[deniser]

Could the buyer also say that the items were not adequately packaged? e.g. when we order fabrics in they have several layers of cardboard on top to prevent us slicing through the fabric when we're trying to get in to the massively over taped box.

As they say, the customer is always right...even when they're wrong.

No, where I would always open a box at its seam ie. where the two side flaps fold over at the top (protected by cardboard underneath) , it is obvious from the box (because she used the same to return the items in) that she has hacked into the side edge with scissors or a knife. This is not a natural place to open a parcel and there is no way you can protect the contents from such recklessness.

 

[deniser]

You have to weigh up the potential scaring the customer away against the negative verbals and social networking your customer might create... in addition to having trading standards reminding you of your obligations

Customer is not in the UK so not bothered about social networking.

Neither am I scared of What used to be Trading Standards as I know I am in the right here and we trade within the law.

 

[AndyP]

and get a nice compensation payout. I would fight this out all day long.

Trouble is that if you take that stance you simply waste your day and possibly night because you are so wound up. So the end result is that you have wasted a day on something that is making you no money, you have frustrated yourself no end, all those things piling up on your desk have not been dealt with and still you can't prove a thing. OK, it's a couple of hundred quid, I appreciate nobody wants to lose it but the fact remains that as much as you may think you know what's happened you still can't prove it. I'm not for a second saying that you are wrong and if you have the time and inclination to not budge then thats fine but sometimes you just have to look at the bigger picture. I would always go with the deal with it, get it off my desk and move on approach. Each to their own though.

 

[a1anm]

Trouble is that if you take that stance you simply waste your day and possibly night because you are so wound up. So the end result is that you have wasted a day on something that is making you no money, you have frustrated yourself no end, all those things piling up on your desk have not been dealt with and still you can't prove a thing. OK, it's a couple of hundred quid, I appreciate nobody wants to lose it but the fact remains that as much as you may think you know what's happened you still can't prove it. I'm not for a second saying that you are wrong and if you have the time and inclination to not budge then thats fine but sometimes you just have to look at the bigger picture. I would always go with the deal with it, get it off my desk and move on approach. Each to their own though.

In cases like this we generally refund the customer and draw a line under it. The problem is it is just going to be your word against theirs. If they insist the problem was there when they received it you have no way of proving it wasn't.

Extremely annoying especially if you know all items get checked before sending them out but sometimes it's just not worth the time/stress fighting it out let alone having a customer potentially bad mouthing you.

 

[quikshop]

Customer is not in the UK so not bothered about social networking.

Neither am I scared of What used to be Trading Standards as I know I am in the right here and we trade within the law.

In that case stand your ground; let us know how you get on because the more successful defences against blatant customer abuse of their rights the more likely retail groups will use the examples to lobby for changes to EU regulations.

 

[deniser]

The worst that can happen is that customer issues a chargeback which I try to defend and fail so have to pay. I'm happy to take that risk. I will post an update here after contacting the customer on Monday.

 

[dynamic08]

update time?

 

[deniser]

Actually, there is an interesting update.

On closer inspection of one of the garments, there is actually a lot more damage than pointed out by the customer.

And the other garment, whilst a design that we stock, is not the size she ordered from us. So she has got another one from somewhere else and has tried to return it to us.

I decided to do a search against the customer and came up with an interesting email from several months ago. It asked for a discount for buying multiple items because she needed them for an event. It is obvious now to me that these items have been used and then damaged and she is now trying it on for a refund. The labels have also been removed.

On further investigation, I have also found a link to an Ebay type site where she is selling the rest of my garments at vastly inflated prices with my copyrighted photos.

I have written to her pointing all this out and asking her to take my pictures down and am waiting for a reply.

I'm glad I was cautious and didn't just refund! I'll let you know what happens next.

 

[a1anm]

Interesting stuff. Make sure you take screen shots of the ebay auctions etc so you have proof after they have been taken down.

 

[deniser]

Interesting stuff. Make sure you take screen shots of the ebay auctions etc so you have proof after they have been taken down.

Yes, done that, thanks.

 

[srivastava]

difficult to decide...

 

[dynamic08]

Scumbag! Hopefully she will get clamped and a flat tyre today!

 

[Esk247]

This person should be blacklisted by retailers. What a con artist!

Bet she tells her friends she owns her own fashion label.

 

[Dymo King]

On further investigation, I have also found a link to an Ebay type site where she is selling the rest of my garments at vastly inflated prices with my copyrighted photos.

Just a thought... if she's reselling these items then she's not a consumer so the DSR doesn't apply. Even if she claims these particular ones were for her own personal use she'd have a hard time proving that given that she's been caught selling similar items on ebay.

Damaged items may be covered by other regulations, but I would say the DSR is dead to her at this point which reduces her options.

 

[deniser]

Just a thought... if she's reselling these items then she's not a consumer so the DSR doesn't apply. Even if she claims these particular ones were for her own personal use she'd have a hard time proving that given that she's been caught selling similar items on ebay.

Damaged items may be covered by other regulations, but I would say the DSR is dead to her at this point which reduces her options.

DSR doesn't apply anyway as she is out of time.

 

[Dymo King]

DSR doesn't apply anyway as she is out of time.

Do you have anything in your T&C's about reporting faulty items within a certain amount of time?

I know a lot of our suppliers T&C state we must report any faults/damage within 2-3 days of receipt. It's almost certainly different for consumers - but she's not a consumer...

 

[deniser]

Do you have anything in your T&C's about reporting faulty items within a certain amount of time?

I know a lot of our suppliers T&C state we must report any faults/damage within 2-3 days of receipt. It's almost certainly different for consumers - but she's not a consumer...

No, but we adhere to Sale of Goods Act for faulty goods where customer has six months. In this case however, we have enough evidence to rebut any presumption that may otherwise have applied in her favour.

 

[Dymo King]

No, but we adhere to Sale of Goods Act for faulty goods where customer has six months. In this case however, we have enough evidence to rebut any presumption that may otherwise have applied in her favour.

does that 6 months still apply where the damage was obvious on receipt, rather than a fault that develops later?

But good news that you found out the other information about what she's been doing.

 

[360interactive]

Actually, there is an interesting update.

On closer inspection of one of the garments, there is actually a lot more damage than pointed out by the customer.

And the other garment, whilst a design that we stock, is not the size she ordered from us. So she has got another one from somewhere else and has tried to return it to us.

I decided to do a search against the customer and came up with an interesting email from several months ago. It asked for a discount for buying multiple items because she needed them for an event. It is obvious now to me that these items have been used and then damaged and she is now trying it on for a refund. The labels have also been removed.

On further investigation, I have also found a link to an Ebay type site where she is selling the rest of my garments at vastly inflated prices with my copyrighted photos.

I have written to her pointing all this out and asking her to take my pictures down and am waiting for a reply.

I'm glad I was cautious and didn't just refund! I'll let you know what happens next.

I was going to write a post saying to just take it on the chin, and refund due to you not being able to prove they weren't sent out like that (plus £200 isn't a massive amount, unless this happens a lot).

After reading the above, you were spot on to do a bit of investigating, fair play, especially if they were returned out of the bag and without tags.

Would love to hear what sort of reply she comes up with.

well done for digging around, many wouldn't have!

 

[dynamic08]

plus £200 isn't a massive amount! Your joking right?

If I was a millionaire and I'm very far from that I would still not just "take it on the chin"

These people out there really are scum and they deserve to be locked up for a week or two!

Its THEFT they may as well be going out there pick pocketing people its exactly the same thing.

 

[360interactive]

plus £200 isn't a massive amount! Your joking right?

I guess it depends on how you value your time.

 

[foofighting]

I had someone buy a £60 item, wear it and return it with the tags still on. She must have worn it for her wedding day too - sad cow!! I refunded her and told he she was no longer to shop on my site again. Banned her IP address and cancelled the account so it was not active.

A few months later she was back buying more stuff with a different email address. I took her money and sent confirmation email - a month later she asked me where it was - I said 'sorry, lost in post I'll refund' and 2 weeks after I did. She buys from me again I'll do the same again.

I too think it is fraud and theft. It is hard enough these days to get a sale, let alone refunding and chucking something in the bin.

 

[dynamic08]

Its not about how much you value your time if that was the case you would not be posting on the forum so often would you?

You'd be out there pulling in those £200 orders.

 

[360interactive]

Its not about how much you value your time if that was the case you would not be posting on the forum so often would you?

You'd be out there pulling in those £200 orders.

I was going to write a reply to this, but you're not worth my time.

 

[360interactive]

Its not about how much you value your time if that was the case you would not be posting on the forum so often would you?

You'd be out there pulling in those £200 orders.

Just to be clear, i'm not boasting that i earn masses, quite the opposite in fact. The hours that i put in probably equate to less than i would earn full time flipping burgers at mcdonalds. (and there i'd get free grub)

What i'm saying is that if you're a busy person, spending the time on something like this when the outcome is not certain will often cost you more in lost time than the original £200. I'm also guessing that denise makes a good amount from her sites from previous posts she has made.

Now if you're only making 200 a week, or you get this happen all the time, then it's a different story, but i stand by my comment in that it all depends on how much you value your time.

 

[deniser]

Just to be clear, i'm not boasting that i earn masses, quite the opposite in fact. The hours that i put in probably equate to less than i would earn full time flipping burgers at mcdonalds. (and there i'd get free grub)

What i'm saying is that if you're a busy person, spending the time on something like this when the outcome is not certain will often cost you more in lost time than the original £200. I'm also guessing that denise makes a good amount from her sites from previous posts she has made.

Now if you're only making 200 a week, or you get this happen all the time, then it's a different story, but i stand by my comment in that it all depends on how much you value your time.

Yes I do make a reasonable amount and do value my time but some things are just worth making time for out of principle for my own satisfaction!

 

[360interactive]

Yes I do make a reasonable amount and do value my time but some things are just worth making time for out of principle for my own satisfaction!

And it paid off!

Did you get a response from her?

 

[deniser]

And it paid off!

Did you get a response from her?

Nothing at all!

 

[dynamic08]

Likewise I would chase them down even if it cost me more. Principle is important.

No one is better than me and I would not let them walk over me online either.

FREE grub at McDonalds! I think you are wrong I asked a lovely young lady serving me the other evening and she said that she only got a discount! it was only around a 1/3 off from memory.

 

[deniser]

That is sad if the staff no longer get free food: got through Uni by taking jobs which included free meals including MacDonalds and Pizza Hut.