Is accountant at fault here?

[DWS]

How? By the time he said that (on the Monday maybe) do you really think you would find another accountant to complete the task in even less time?

OP has already said they could have got someone else to submit and also this Accountant could have shortened the end of year to give more time to submit it they had wanted to

 

[DontAsk]

OP has already said they could have got someone else to submit

No he didn't. At least not with any certainty. " she could have tried to find someone ", "we would have found..."

 

[DWS]

No he didn't. At least not with any certainty. " she could have tried to find someone ", "we would have found..."

So them saying 100% they could have got someone else is not enough for you?
You set a very high bar!

 

[Lucan Unlordly]

How? By the time he said that (on the Monday maybe) do you really think you would find another accountant to complete the task in even less time?

In fairness to the OP he did post this earlier........

100% could have been done. I know quite a few accountants who I could have called in favours with. But also my mum had another accountant for a previous business (he was not very well when my mum set up the new business, but he is also a friend). So yes it could have been avoided.

 

[numbersrule]

How? By the time he said that (on the Monday maybe) do you really think you would find another accountant to complete the task in even less time?

Exactly.
This is why the key question is whether a Letter of Engagement was in place.
It seems to me that if Tony84 is in the habit of trying to appoint accountants within 8 days then my guess is there was no Letter of Engagement in the first place.
Then the accountant does not actually have any responsibility to prepare an Annual Filing within 8 days.

 

[DWS]

Exactly.
This is why the key question is whether a Letter of Engagement was in place.
It seems to me that if Tony84 is in the habit of trying to appoint accountants within 8 days then my guess is there was no Letter of Engagement in the first place.
Then the accountant does not actually have any responsibility to prepare an Annual Filing within 8 days.

The point is that if the existing Accountant would not be able to prepare and submit the accounts by the deadline then they should have told the client this, no one was forcing the Accountant to take on the work, they should have declined it as being unreasonable to expect them to meet the deadline, that at least gives the client the time needed to appoint someone else if they so wish or accept they will be getting a late filing penalty.
To take on the work and not to tell the client that they will not meet the deadline and give no explanation as to why is poor in my opinion, and that goes for any business not just Accountancy.

 

[pentel]

The point is that if the existing Accountant would not be able to prepare and submit the accounts by the deadline then they should have told the client this

When the information was sent to the accountant did the email on 22 November include something to the effect:

"Please find attached information for the preparation and submission of the tax return for XYZ Ltd. The return needs to be submitted no later than 30 November. Could you confirm that you can meet this time line? "

Or was she expecting the accountant to remember her deadline from a year ago?

Unlike personal tax returns which mostly have the same filing dates companies can have many different filing dates.

 

[DWS]

When the information was sent to the accountant did the email on 22 November include something to the effect:

"Please find attached information for the preparation and submission of the tax return for XYZ Ltd. The return needs to be submitted no later than 30 November. Could you confirm that you can meet this time line? "

Or was she expecting the accountant to remember her deadline from a year ago?

Unlike personal tax returns which mostly have the same filing dates companies can have many different filing dates.

How would I know what the email said?
And yes Accountants should remember their clients end of year dates, I have a comprehensive list showing all my clients end of years so that I can send out reminders.

 

[tony84]

It seems to me that if Tony84 is in the habit of trying to appoint accountants within 8 days then my guess is there was no Letter of Engagement in the first place.
Then the accountant does not actually have any responsibility to prepare an Annual Filing within 8 days.

A habit? I have had my accountant for maybe 7 years now. This was the second year my mum was using this accountant (the business has been in place for 2 years). My mums previous business used the same accountant from start to finish - 4-5 years I think and she wanted to use him again but as mentioned he was unwell when the company was formed/accounts needed.

The habit is that we actually stick with our accountants.

 

[tony84]

Or was she expecting the accountant to remember her deadline from a year ago?

I think this is a fair point. Newchodge mentioned it and it was not something I had considered.

But if you cant look at something in a week, I dont think it is unreasonable to come back and say "I have received your email, thanks. I wont have chance to review everything until next week/month" (or whatever timeframe you need).

If I receive emails and I cant look at it that day, I always go back and say it will tomorrow or a couple of days. Its just good manners.

 

[Ziggy2024]

Whilst I understand your frustration here you are focusing on the wrong thing entirely. For now you need to put aside your annoyance at the fine and look at resolving the outstanding issues.

You need to ensure the accounts are filed and any tax is paid (interest will be accruing on this from the deadline date). The fine can be discussed with the accountant & appealed with Companies House later but the filing needs to be sorted.

 

[tony84]

Whilst I understand your frustration here you are focusing on the wrong thing entirely. For now you need to put aside your annoyance at the fine and look at resolving the outstanding issues.

You need to ensure the accounts are filed and any tax is paid (interest will be accruing on this from the deadline date). The fine can be discussed with the accountant & appealed with Companies House later but the filing needs to be sorted.

Agreed. And it is still not done now.

Interesting about the interest I was not aware, although in the grand scheme of things I assume maybe 12p a day (@ 8%?) not the end of the world.

 

[Mark T Jones]

I haven't read the responses, so probably repeating others.

Id say it all comes down to contracts and/or promises - were there any?

You certainly can't assume that because something happened before it will be guaranteed now.

One thing accountants often complain about is the fact that customers leave everything to the last minute then get upset when it isn't done on time.. that happens to me too!

 

[Newchodge]

I haven't read the responses, so probably repeating others.

Id say it all comes down to contracts and/or promises - were there any?

You certainly can't assume that because something happened before it will be guaranteed now.

One thing accountants often complain about is the fact that customers leave everything to the last minute then get upset when it isn't done on time.. that happens to me too!

I think that happens to most of us who have to work to an external deadline.

I have a payroll client whose 4 staff are paid on Friday every 4 weeks. To me that means the client needs the information to notify the bank on Thursday afternoon so the money is there on Friday morning. I have told them over and over again that I must have the hours to be paid by 12:00 on Thursday, even though that means anticipating Thursday and Friday hours worked. Whatever other work I have, the 30 minutes from 12:00 Thursday are to run that payroll. I can rarely do that as the figures have only twice been there on time (in 4 years!) Often they are not there until Friday 12:00 or later. In the past I have worked in the evening or early morning to get this done as soon as the figures appeared, then dealt with messages to amend figures often after 5pm on Friday. This year I have realised that I have been enabling their carelessness and I advised them in October that without the figures on time they may not be able to pay staff until Monday (they work Monday to Friday). When I had a snotty message asking why the payroll wasn't done by Friday lunchtime 14 November (figures arrived 2 hours before the message) I lost the plot and told them it would be done when I had the time as they had, yet again, missed their timeslot. They were very upset and hadn't realised I had a timetable to work to.

I really must get around to sacking them as clients. Rant over.

 

[Elliot Green]

As I have said, the fine could have been avoided if he had just said "no chance it will be done in time".

I dont think it is unreasonable to expect that but clearly I am in the minority.

It is possible the reason for that is providing information with 8 days to go is fractionally optimistic and many might consider this to be the case. It is improbable that what happened last year matters materially, absent a letter of engagement that sets out such matters.

 

[Daybooks]

I think that happens to most of us who have to work to an external deadline.

I have a payroll client whose 4 staff are paid on Friday every 4 weeks. To me that means the client needs the information to notify the bank on Thursday afternoon so the money is there on Friday morning. I have told them over and over again that I must have the hours to be paid by 12:00 on Thursday, even though that means anticipating Thursday and Friday hours worked. Whatever other work I have, the 30 minutes from 12:00 Thursday are to run that payroll. I can rarely do that as the figures have only twice been there on time (in 4 years!) Often they are not there until Friday 12:00 or later. In the past I have worked in the evening or early morning to get this done as soon as the figures appeared, then dealt with messages to amend figures often after 5pm on Friday. This year I have realised that I have been enabling their carelessness and I advised them in October that without the figures on time they may not be able to pay staff until Monday (they work Monday to Friday). When I had a snotty message asking why the payroll wasn't done by Friday lunchtime 14 November (figures arrived 2 hours before the message) I lost the plot and told them it would be done when I had the time as they had, yet again, missed their timeslot. They were very upset and hadn't realised I had a timetable to work to.

I really must get around to sacking them as clients. Rant over.

Unless they are really paying you handsomely, I would tell them now that you will no longer provide the service from 6th April 2026. This gives them ample time to find a replacement without the inconvenience of changing providers mid tax year.

 

[pentel]

8 days to go is fractionally optimistic

The dates given by the OP suggests that there were actually only 5 working days!

 

[Hugh Simpson]

Get a specific letter of engagement to avoid problems further down the line.

 

[Lisa Thomas]

Get a specific letter of engagement to avoid problems further down the line.

I suspect there is one...

 

[Tornado220]

Whilst the communication from the accountant could be better (& potentially could have extended the deadline) it is your mum's fault. You are given 9 months from the end of the financial year to file the accounts, why did she wait until a week prior?

Surely if the accountant told her he could get them done in time than it's their problem and not hers ?

 

[Tornado220]

As I have said, the fine could have been avoided if he had just said "no chance it will be done in time".

I dont think it is unreasonable to expect that but clearly I am in the minority.

How would the fine be avoided ? She would have had to find another accountant who was able to turn it around in under a week ?? That is not an easy option to fulfill, my own experiences are that accountants rarely give you feedback that they cannot abide by the deadline and will always take longer than a week to file,

 

[Tornado220]

Dont worry not after sympathy, I never mentioned it as I dont think it has an relevance. Hes either at fault or isnt.

I find it bizarre that he can just sit on accounts and let people fines with no consequences.

I really cannot see why the accountant isn't responsible, if they said they would do it within the week then they failed and should pay the fine, changing accountants can be fun, once you find a good one don't lose them as they are few and far between !

 

[tony84]

How would the fine be avoided ? She would have had to find another accountant who was able to turn it around in under a week ?? That is not an easy option to fulfill, my own experiences are that accountants rarely give you feedback that they cannot abide by the deadline and will always take longer than a week to file,

Not going to go through all of your responses as a lot of it has already been covered off.

But I could 100% have got it done in time, it is covered off in previous responses. Ultimately the letter of engagement I am under the impression would have given a timeframe. I have never read mine (let alone my mums).

I have just checked with my accounts out of curiosity...
7th May 2025 sent to accountant. Done on the 9th May.
2nd April 2024 sent to accountant. Done on the 7th (A Sunday).
13th April 2023 sent - 15th April returned.

Just to be clear, I never ask for them to be done quickly as I am not actually bothered when they get done. I just want the job off my desk But the longest it has taken him is 5 days. When I say I could have got it done...

 

[JEREMY HAWKE]

The son is responsible here as I am constantly reminded by my Mum who at 80 still hammers around in her 4X4 like a 17 YO

 

[Tornado220]

Not going to go through all of your responses as a lot of it has already been covered off.

But I could 100% have got it done in time, it is covered off in previous responses. Ultimately the letter of engagement I am under the impression would have given a timeframe. I have never read mine (let alone my mums).

I have just checked with my accounts out of curiosity...
7th May 2025 sent to accountant. Done on the 9th May.
2nd April 2024 sent to accountant. Done on the 7th (A Sunday).
13th April 2023 sent - 15th April returned.

Just to be clear, I never ask for them to be done quickly as I am not actually bothered when they get done. I just want the job off my desk But the longest it has taken him is 5 days. When I say I could have got it done...

and that's kind of my point you or your mum has an expectation based on experience. I get kind of annoyed when people don't stand up to their obligations and carry the responsibility but rather pass the buck, it always seems to be that we carry the can for our customers whilst also carrying it for our service suppliers !

 

[Ziggy2024]

Surely if the accountant told her he could get them done in time than it's their problem and not hers ?

Not sure why you have resurrected the thread but if you've read all the responses this has already been answered.

No, it is not the accountants problem even if they did promise it could be done (but as far as we know the accountant only confirmed receipt of records).

This does not mean that the accountant is absolved of any consequences but the question was about the fine.

 

[tony84]

and that's kind of my point you or your mum has an expectation based on experience. I get kind of annoyed when people don't stand up to their obligations and carry the responsibility but rather pass the buck, it always seems to be that we carry the can for our customers whilst also carrying it for our service suppliers !

Being completely honest, if I gave my accountant a week and he did not do it and it resulted in a fine, regardless of what the original letter stated, I would be very annoyed with him and if he did not cover the cost - rightly or wrongly - I would switch accountants. If someone has done something for 3 or more years and then relies on a letter sent out prior to that, I would fall out over it. You cant do something time and time again and then say "the T&Cs" were all small businesses, things are done differently.

However, in my mums case, this was only the second lot of accounts and so (had you read all of the replies) there are times where I have seen it from the other side.

Ultimately we will be switching accountants, in part because of the mistake but mostly because his response lacked any sort of empathy or explanation. Its a shame as he would have had her business indefinitely. Again, some will disagree with us, thats fine.

But going back to what I said, all he had to say was "it cant be done in time." And that would have prevented everything.

Your argument was that it could not be done. Then when I explained it could be, you have moved on to something else.

 

[Lisa Thomas]

Expecting that to be done within in a week is unreasonable, imo, regardless of whether it had been done within that time frame in the past.

I suspect that might be one of the reasons why the accountant has not been empathetic - they were hoping your Mum would move to another accountant.

 

[tony84]

Already mentioned, but the first year there was no need to be quick. Everything was provided in plenty of time. It was them who turned it around in 2 hours.

Im not saying 8 days is reasonable or not. It appears all accountants are saying not, but after 13 years in business it has never taken 8 days to get accounts done... Our businesses are not complicated, everything is on a CSV file that has been reviewed beforehand and anything that does not make sense (ie amazon) has been labelled with that transaction actually is.

 

[syedsheraz]

Mums accounts were due at the end of November.
She sent everything over to her accountant on I think the 22nd November.
She checked in a few days later to confirm he had everything - which he acknowledged.

The accounts are still not done and so my mum will incur a fine with HMRC for late filing.

The accountant has come back and basically said she will get a fine... No apology or anything.

She used the same person last year and he filed her accounts in under 2 hours, so whilst 8 days might not seem a lot, based on past experience it was plenty of time.


I cant help but think he should be the one footing the bill.

It sounds frustrating, especially given that the accounts were submitted well in advance. One option might be for your mum to contact HMRC directly to explain the circumstances. Sometimes, they can reduce or waive fines if it’s a first-time delay and there’s a reasonable explanation. Additionally, it may be worth raising the issue with the accountant formally, highlighting that the delay was on their part and requesting that they cover any penalties incurred. For future filings, you might also consider setting internal deadlines a bit earlier than HMRC’s date to allow a buffer for processing.

 

[Lisa Thomas]

It sounds frustrating, especially given that the accounts were submitted well in advance. One option might be for your mum to contact HMRC directly to explain the circumstances. Sometimes, they can reduce or waive fines if it’s a first-time delay and there’s a reasonable explanation. Additionally, it may be worth raising the issue with the accountant formally, highlighting that the delay was on their part and requesting that they cover any penalties incurred. For future filings, you might also consider setting internal deadlines a bit earlier than HMRC’s date to allow a buffer for processing.

I don't agree that 8 days is well in advance for a busy accountant with no doubt multiple clients.