How can you protect a website idea?

[KelBel]

Hi,

I am new to the website and hoped someone could help with this.

I have an idea to launch a website, which as far as i am aware is unique to the particular market I am in. The website won't be using any unique or new technology, but the concept is new. What is the best way to protect the concept? Can you patent a website, or is it best just to get it to market as quickly as possible and use copyright and trademarks instead?

If so, what aspects of a website design should you copyright / trademark and how do you go about it?

Sorry for all the questions!

Thanks in advance,

Kelly

 

[Toni Anicic]

You can't really patent a business model, everyone can copy that from you.

You don't need to patent your design or your texts because they are automatically your copyright, they belong to you and you can sue anyone that steals it from you.

In case it's content that is stolen from you, you don't even need to sue them, you can just fill the DMCA complain.

As far as the protecting the idea before you launch it goes, make sure you sign an NDA agreement with the company that is going to build your website. This way you can sue them if they try to steal the idea from you and build it on their own.

 

[CraigieDD]

Hi Kelly,

Surprised none of the specialist legal people haven't replied to this yet.

But from my experience,

I'd start a TM on your brand straight away.

In terms of look an feel, as I understand it, you can't really copyright it. But if someone in the same field as you launches a similar looking website there may be a case there.

Make sure your Web developer signs a Non-disclosure agreement. I can give you a copy of ours if you need one. Just let me know.

And give me a buzz if you want to chat through the various aspects of your web project, we've developed some pretty high profile websites.

 

[maxh]

No you can't patent a website.

You could protect images, videos etc.. with copyright...

Basically the way you do it is be first and stay first.

If you could patent websites then why are there more than one search engine? Online shop? Online car dealership? Porn website?

You can, however, patent new technology used online. For example most of the clever things Google does to power its searches and take your personal data is patented.

 

[Craig HelpTrainingCourses]

Hi

You cannot realy patent a website idea - If your idea is unique you will be first to market, you then need to capitalise on this and grow so that when another website springs up doing the same, you are in a strong position.

 

[fisicx]

If the idea proves succesful there will be a whole bunch of clones published by the Asian script kiddies in a matter of days. You can't protect yourself against this sort of activity so just accept that you will get lookalike sites.

And are you really sure the idea hasn't already been tried in one form of another? Even facebook had its forerunners, bulletin boards and newsgroups have been around for years. Nothing is really new, just the developing technology.

 

[filtuh.com]

Exactly, you'll get copied a lot. There will be a million and one posts on freelancer sites saying "I want a clone of this website and will pay $500".

Which is galling and sickening, until you realise that you were first, and that being first does have it's advantages.

However, there is no substitute for excellence.

So get an NDA, start saving for your marketing budget, and do your research. It needn't cost tens of thousands to launch.

 

[Astaroth]

It is possible in some countries to patent software (which ultimately is what a website is) however your only protecting some of the solution and not the idea itself. If someone else can reverse engineer a different way of achieving the same end goal then you have no redress against them.

If you look online Google have many patents in connection with search technology and there are others connected to things like Page Rank such as http://www.freepatentsonline.com/7516123.pdf

Copyright is automatic on anything that is created, you dont technically need to do anything to get it. What can be difficult is proving it though as you need to show yours was first. Also, if your getting others to create things for you, they own the copyright not you so you should ensure your contract with them assigns copyright to you (or that your happy with the licensing clauses in it if you dont mind not owning the copyright).

Trademarks are a stronger way of protecting your brand and may be worth considering.

Talking to developers you dont really have much choice. You can get them to sign an NDA but in all honesty for "ideas" they aren;t worth the paper they are written on. You can also get them to sign a non-competition agreement but these can also be difficult to enforce and will drive up the cost of the project - if you want your developers not to create another ecommerce site for 5 years the renumeration will have to be enough to make up for this!!

Your biggest protection is that generally speaking, web developers are in the business of developing sites and not running them and so many would have no interest in setting up a competing service.

 

[NuBlue]

As has already been said, it will almost certainly get copied if it is good. Look how many Ebay style sites are available... but none of them do anywhere near as much business as Ebay!

Personally I would not bother with TM or Copyright at the moment. I always try and get proof of concept first. Just because you think it is a neat idea doesn't mean that anyone else will So save the money, get the idea launched, see what response you get and if it is positive, invest the proceeds into protecting the brand and growing the concept. All in my humble opinion.

NDA is probably worth using though whilst getting quotes

 

[filtuh.com]

I trademarked Filtuh as I thought it was worth doing - it's a sort of catchy web2 name and it's related to how the site works. You can do your own trademark for £170 online, but I'd only recommend doing it yourself if there is utterly no competition for the name. There was nothing matching 'filtuh' at all in the database so I was fairly confident.

I would suggest storyboarding / wireframing your idea as far as possible using something like Balsamiq Mockups which is free for 30 days and then something low like $80. It will save time when talking to designers and you can copyright the diagrams which will give you *some* recourse if the developers then knock out an exact copy the next day.

Also have drafts of the text you want, think about whether you want labels and text on the site to be data-driven (ie for easy language translation or tweaking further down the line), do research on data security requirements for the sector you're going into and have this as part of the spec, whether you want load testing done and if so who your host will be, whether you need the site to be scalable for the platform you're aiming for (windows vs linux). Once you've compiled all of that into a brief, not only will it give you some limited protection, but it will help your web developer and ensure that you have actual acceptance criteria for when they deliver.

 

[sysops]

I trademarked Filtuh as I thought it was worth doing - it's a sort of catchy web2 name and it's related to how the site works.

But you went a step further - you really have completely protected your idea. OP - this is how to stop others from stealing your idea:

http://www.filtuh.com/

 

[filtuh.com]

Yes, we did have a holding page, and whilst we make the final tweaks it's password protected for public visitors and only available to listing partners in closed beta. I'll open up to the 'review my website' forum once we've made the laast few changes before go-live.

 

[KelBel]

Hi Craig,

that would be great to have a copy of your NDA if possible? I have worked with a website company on an existing website, but i'm not sure they will be available to do this one for me, in which case i may well give you a call.


Thanks for your help,

Kelly

Hi Kelly,

Surprised none of the specialist legal people haven't replied to this yet.

But from my experience,

I'd start a TM on your brand straight away.

In terms of look an feel, as I understand it, you can't really copyright it. But if someone in the same field as you launches a similar looking website there may be a case there.

Make sure your Web developer signs a Non-disclosure agreement. I can give you a copy of ours if you need one. Just let me know.

And give me a buzz if you want to chat through the various aspects of your web project, we've developed some pretty high profile websites.

 

[KelBel]

Thanks very much for your feedback. That's what i pretty much thought would be the case.

Assuming that my website concept is unique (in the service it offers), how do you decide how much marketing budget to start off with (eg. would you start with a limited budget to 'test' the idea and build on it, or because i need to make the most of the fact that i am (assuming) first to market, should i capitalise on that and have a bigger marketing budget? I already run a successful business in the same sector which is how i have spotted this gap in the market. The advertising i would need to invest in would be press advertising, Google adwords and web banners.

I have a degree in graphic design so would be able to do the 'design' aspects of everything myself.

thanks,

Kelly

 

[filtuh.com]

As a very rough way of guesstimating how much marketing you need to do, calculate how much you'd make on average from each customer (and what percentage of visitors you'd convert into customers) and then compare that with the expected circulation and conversion rate for where you have chosen to advertise.

eg. online ad at £20CPM
Spend £1000 to get 50,000 impressions
Average impression per customer is, say, 3 meaning 16,700 uniques exposed to your adverts
4% of them go to your website = 668 people hitting your site
4% of those convert to customers = 26 new customers

So that's a thousand pounds spent to get 26 paying customers, in effect costing you £38.50 per customer.

And the trick is to achieve, maintain and then improve on those 4% figures.

To tell you how to do that, you'll need to ask the marketing experts.

 

[David Warrilow]

It can be possible to patent the software behind websites and in some cases the accompanying business method. You may care to read our article on software patents:

http://www.londonip.com/articles_april_2010.html

If you're interested we can give you a free opinion on whether or not it might be patentable.

Cheers

 

[pughsander]

Hi there,

A simple way to protect your idea is to put copies of all the designs and concepts into an envelope and mail them to yourself (recorded mail). This way you have your designs/idea in a dated, sealed envelope. Therefore if you found that anyone had 'taken' the idea you would have proof that you came up with it before as you have a sealed dated envelope containing that design/idea if you were to go to court or something.

I know it is more difficult to protect and idea than an actual design but it may just help.

Regards

 

[DeepakRulls]

hi
I'm not a legal professional but i have several websites and my knowledge comes from personal experience
you can't patent a website and basically speaking you can't protect an idea by copyright
you need to prepare yourself to be copied and make it harder for others to copy you
however, there are few important steps to take before doing anything:
1. do not disclose information to third parties without a non-disclosure agreement.
2. do not enter into an agreement with a programer or developer without a software escrow agreement.
3. if you hire employees or freelancers you need to make sure they sign a non-compete agreement.
you can find free samples at contracts.org.in
its an indian website but these contracts are same everywhere and i use them in the UK WITH NO PROBLEM

 

[David Warrilow]

Hi

I'm the patent attorney that posted above.

With all respect, DeepakRulls, the statement that 'you can't patent a website' is untrue. You may be able to patent the business method the website facilitates and/or the software behind it.

I must re-iterate that it is sometimes possible to patent software and sometimes possible to patent business methods (the latter predominantly in the US).

Admittedly most of the enquiries we have on business methods and software relate to unpatentable subject matter, but I would recommend getting a professional opinion before dismissing the idea. If it is patentable then having a patent could make your business much more lucrative.

Most patent attorneys give a free half hour consultation.

Contact one before you non-confidentially disclose your idea!

You can have a free consultation. You can only gain from it.

David

 

[Tech-chic]

Hi,

I think you can't do anything to protect it..... just copywriting but i think can copy your idea....

 

[David Warrilow]

Wih all respect, please listen.

Kelbel stated the concept was new.

There are are two main requiremetns for patentability.

1. New - the exact same thing has not been done before.
2. Inventive - it's not an obvious modification of the most similar things.

If it is new then you can argue it is inventive.

It is possible it is patentable (particularly in the US). We file patent applications for software and business methods all the time. Generally they are geared toward getting protection in the US, but that is a very large market.

Kelbel, I urge you not to listen to people saying 'you can't protect it'.

Get a professional opinion. The likelihood is that it is not patentable in the UK (and maybe US), but there is always a chance.

The business community is generally unaware of business method patents. I hope that we will be able to help to spread awareness of this possibility.

Get professional advice. It is free!

David

 

[David Warrilow]

I just read the whole thread again and I'm a little annoyed.

A problem with this forum is people giving advice on things they do not specialize in.

The business concepts of websites CAN be patented in the US, and sometimes in the UK and Europe.

The software behind websites can be patented in many countries.

If you wish to be opinionated that is fine, but please refrain from offering advice to people when (if they act on your advice) they could lose rights to their business.

The forum is designed to help people, not provide them with false guidance.

The advice given by other members who are not professionals in the relevant field should be, in my opinion, 'talk to a professional'.

I know this is a bit of a rant, and I apologize for any offence caused, as I am sure that everyone here has the best of intentions, but it just galls me to think that someone could lose out on IP rights from listening to the advice of people unqualified to give a fully informed opinion.

Kindest regards

David

 

[stone21]

Hi

You cannot realy patent a website idea - If your idea is unique you will be first to market, you then need to capitalise on this and grow so that when another website springs up doing the same, you are in a strong position.

Hi , Craig Fantarrow .I agree with you .

At my opinion, sb maybe can steal sth. from web, but they can't steal idea absolutely .

 

[stone21]

Hi

You cannot realy patent a website idea - If your idea is unique you will be first to market, you then need to capitalise on this and grow so that when another website springs up doing the same, you are in a strong position.

I agree with you . The best is , caplitalise and let it grow soon.

At my opinion, sb. may steal some information but they can't steal idea absolutely

 

[DeepakRulls]

Hi

I'm the patent attorney that posted above.

With all respect, DeepakRulls, the statement that 'you can't patent a website' is untrue. You may be able to patent the business method the website facilitates and/or the software behind it.

I must re-iterate that it is sometimes possible to patent software and sometimes possible to patent business methods (the latter predominantly in the US).

Admittedly most of the enquiries we have on business methods and software relate to unpatentable subject matter, but I would recommend getting a professional opinion before dismissing the idea. If it is patentable then having a patent could make your business much more lucrative.

Most patent attorneys give a free half hour consultation.

Contact one before you non-confidentially disclose your idea!

You can have a free consultation. You can only gain from it.

David

Dear Mr. David Warrilow
thank you for reply
i disagree with your email entirely (it doesn't mean that I'm totally right, of course)
1. you cannot patent a website. period.
2. patenting a software is exceptionally rare and you don't patent the software itself but a unique algorithm
BTW, I A PATENT EXPERT

 

[siril]

i agree with deepakrulls
you cant patent a website. you can in rare events patent an algorithm

 

[David Warrilow]

Dear Mr. David Warrilow
thank you for reply
i disagree with your email entirely (it doesn't mean that I'm totally right, of course)
1. you cannot patent a website. period.
2. patenting a software is exceptionally rare and you don't patent the software itself but a unique algorithm
BTW, I A PATENT EXPERT

Dear Mr DeepakRulls

I am a patent attorney.

We very recently filed a patent application for a business method (that will be embodied in a website).

If granted (in the US, which is where we targeted it for) our client will have a monopoly on that business method (and thus any websites that do the same thing).

As I stated above, you can patent a business method that the website facilitates. This prevents any other websites from embodying the business method.

An example is the Amazon one-click patent:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1-Click

I also refer you to the Wikipedia article on business method patents:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Business_method_patent

Interestingly 'Patents have been granted in the United States on methods for doing business since the US patent system was established in 1790'

Re software patents. They are not rare. I again refer you to a Wikipedia article:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_patents

As you will see, over 16000 patents are issued every year in the US:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Software_patents2.JPG

I don't know the figures for Europe, but a very large number of software patents are issued every year. We file them routinely. For a guide to patentability of software in the UK and Europe I refer you to our website:

http://www.londonip.com/articles_april_2010.html

We have decided to write an article on patenting business methods, and I'll post a link to this in due course.

Regards

 

[akirk]

David,

I would agree that business methods can be patented, but feel there are also deeper issues here to explore:

Amazon's 1-click patent has basically failed (okay it is there in conjunction with a shopping cart, but the whole point of it is to avoid a shopping cart, hence the concept of 1-click!)

The fact that a patent may be granted in the USA and not elsewhere would suggest concern to me - the USA patent office is known to do some strange things:
http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn2178-boy-takes-swing-at-us-patents.html for absurdity - I amongst many other red-blooded males can easily demonstrate that this fails the 'new' test as we have all used swings in this way...

When the web is international how can you possibly have a methodology related to web which is new etc. in one territory, but not new elsewhere - the concept of geographical segregation in the web world is surely by definition hard to uphold...

so - yes agree, there is no harm in contacting the nearest patent office for a free initial consultation, but there is sense in pursuing the best options and there are perhaps other issues to consider beyond patenting (which is difficult and expensive to gain, and even more difficult and expensive to protect) - first to market advantage and marketing may well prove to be the best areas to pursue.

regards

Alasdair

 

[David Warrilow]

Hi Alasdair

Thanks for the response.

Perhaps the Amazon 1-click patent isn't the best example, but it does operate as a popular example of such patents.

The geographical segregation of the web occurs all the time. In this instance, were someone to be granted a US patent but nowhere else then although competitors could trade on the net they could not trade into the US.

I quite agree with you that pursuing patent protection will not be appropriate in every situation and being first to get to market may be a better approach. However, every business venture is different and without knowing all the facts it is impossible to estimate the benefits of Kelbel applying for a patent.

The main point I am trying to make is that as they can have a free consultation with a professional they should take advantage of this.

In 95% of cases the answer is 'no the business method isn't patentable even in the US' but if their idea falls into the other 5% then it would be foolish not to have even explored the possibility of patenting.

Cheers

 

[akirk]

The geographical segregation of the web occurs all the time. In this instance, were someone to be granted a US patent but nowhere else then although competitors could trade on the net they could not trade into the US.

I see what you are saying and have no disagreement in terms of once the patent is granted - where I have a disagreement is in how a patent could be granted - if we are refering to online and a territory such as the UK considers it not new - then the USA must also consider it not new - a business model or process can't be new in one territory and not new in another, when refering to an international sphere...

The main point I am trying to make is that as they can have a free consultation with a professional they should take advantage of this.

with that I agree

Alasdair

 

[David Warrilow]

Hi Alasdair

I think I understand your confusion about how a patent can be granted in the US but not the UK, but please correct me if I am wrong.

The UK doesn't grant business method patents in the same way that the US does on the basis of what each territory considers to be patentable subject-matter.

You are correct that the business method must be new on a global basis. If it has been disclosed anywhere in the world by a third party then that will prevent getting a patent in the US (or indeed anywhere else).

Cheers

David

 

[akirk]

Hi Alasdair

I think I understand your confusion about how a patent can be granted in the US but not the UK, but please correct me if I am wrong.

The UK doesn't grant business method patents in the same way that the US does on the basis of what each territory considers to be patentable subject-matter.

You are correct that the business method must be new on a global basis. If it has been disclosed anywhere in the world by a third party then that will prevent getting a patent in the US (or indeed anywhere else).

Cheers

David

hopefully not confused but of course not an expert - just been through the process myself a number of times.

I just think that the USA patent office takes liberties with what it grants I suppose I was assuming that both would see it as innovative - but perhaps there is space between them in that definition in which case it might be possible.

However, coming back to the original, I am dubious about it being a good spend of money - I think that even if granted it will be very difficult to defend, any competitor can find ways which would be difficult to disprove of demonstrating prior art - I think that probably defending business practices online through patents is probably not (in my view) the best spend of money - it is possible that spending that same money in marketing / etc. may prove more effective.

Alasdair

 

[David Warrilow]

Hi Alasdair

Thanks for the reply.

There is indeed space between them in respect of what they see as patentable subject matter. For example, new and inventive card games can be patented in the US. This is utterly impossible in the UK and Europe as it is not 'technical'.

Incidentally, if you wanted to offer an online card game (analagous to online poker) this is a good example as to when a patent in the US could be granted, but not anywhere else, and where the patent could be extremely lucrative. Imagine having a monopoly on an online gambling game in the US....

This leads on to your second point. Whether or not seeking patent protection is a good spend of money entirely depends on what the invention is. For a new, addictive card game it could be a great spend. For something with little potential turnover it may well be a waste and the priority should be on spending money on marketing etc. as you suggest.

As to defending patents, anyone who wilfully infringes a patent in the US can be liable for 'punitive' damages, i.e. triple damages. If the patent is commercially valuable there are ways to fund patent litigation (for example 'patent trolls'). Patent trolls are people who fund an infringement action for a cut of the profits. It's a big business.

David

 

[akirk]

Indeed - all depends on the website which is back to your comment of 'get a free introductory meeting'

Alasdair

 

[DeepakRulls]

Dear Mr DeepakRulls

I am a patent attorney.

We very recently filed a patent application for a business method (that will be embodied in a website).

If granted (in the US, which is where we targeted it for) our client will have a monopoly on that business method (and thus any websites that do the same thing).

As I stated above, you can patent a business method that the website facilitates. This prevents any other websites from embodying the business method.

An example is the Amazon one-click patent:



I also refer you to the Wikipedia article on business method patents:



Interestingly 'Patents have been granted in the United States on methods for doing business since the US patent system was established in

Re software patents. They are not rare. I again refer you to a Wikipedia article:


As you will see, over 16000 patents are issued every year in the US:

I don't know the figures for Europe, but a very large number of software patents are issued every year. We file them routinely. For a guide to patentability of software in the UK and Europe I refer you to our website:

We have decided to write an article on patenting business methods, and I'll post a link to this in due course.

Regards

Dear Mr. David Warrilow

thank you again for taking the time to reply

i reviewed the links you posted and asked the advice of our patent attorney

we both believe that your last reply is more accurate and correct

again, to simplify, we both strongly believe that you cannot patent a website. you can, however, and this is really difficult, to patent a unique business method or a unique algorithm of a software. websites, as websites, are more relevant to the field of copyright.

you wrote in another reply that "In 95% of cases the answer is 'no the business method isn't patentable even in the US'". i do believe that this figure is correct (if not more). therefore, it is my understanding that you also acknowledge that websites (or "business methods", as you chose to refer to them) are at least 95% not "patentable".

other than that, we completely agree with Alasdair's enlightening replies

 

[David Warrilow]

I think this is going to be my last post on this topic as I'm not prepared to keep repeating the same thing.

You can patent a business method, software, game etc. and embody the invention in a website. Thus the website is in effect patented as no-one can publish a website that embodies the same invention.

As examples of granted patents for inventions embodied in websites:

http://v3.espacenet.com/publication...T=D&date=20060831&CC=US&NR=2006195364A1&KC=A1

http://v3.espacenet.com/publication...=B2&FT=D&date=20090512&DB=EPODOC&locale=en_EP

This latter patent affords its owner the following monopoly:

1. A wire-mesh selection Internet website system, comprising:
a webserver for connection to the Internet and providing for interactive webpages;
a graphic user interface (GUI) based on an available wire-mesh product page;
a wire-mesh product picture included in the GUI and representing a current wire-mesh product selection; and
a navigation control included in the GUI that permits an Internet-client user to hyperlink to other available wire-mesh product pages, based upon at least one selectable product characteristic, wherein the navigation control comprises four-way navigation for the selectable product characteristics.

There are many many more examples of such patents.

As to patenting software it is not 'really difficult'. It is commonplace. You obviously haven't read the articles I directed you to.

16000 software patents granted each year in the US.

As to Europe, the 1994 Annual Report of the European Patent Office stated that 'since its founding, the EPO has granted over 11,000 patents for software-related inventions in the core areas of information technology alone, i.e. digital data processing, data recognition, representation and storage...'

Evidently many more patents for software will have been granted in Europe since 1994.

 

[London Photographer]

You need to see a IP solicitor if you are serious and think your idea has legs