Help needed - Failing coffee shop

[Ian J]

I would look at replacing the paninis if they aren't selling, but at this time of year especially you need hot options. Do you have the facilities to make soup? Homemade soup is always a winner, it's cheap and easy to make and can be kept warm in a soup kettle (which cost £30) to be served as soon as they are ordered.

Many years ago I had a unit in the centre of a shopping precinct and I found that baked potatoes with a choice of fillings sold quite well in winter.

Whilst home made soup might be a good seller I very much doubt whether you could get many portions in a £30 soup kettle

 

[ecommerce84]

Many years ago I had a unit in the centre of a shopping precinct and I found that baked potatoes with a choice of fillings sold quite well in winter.

Whilst home made soup might be a good seller I very much doubt whether you could get many portions in a £30 soup kettle

I'd definitely agree with jacket potatoes.

I picked up a soup kettle from Nisbets for £30 (on offer admittedly and also ex vat) in December and it holds 10 litres which I would think would be enough for OP.

 

[ValleysGuy1975]

Some good ideas guys !

Got a couple of friends who are self employed themselves coming down over the next couple of days to have a look and see where to go from here though.

General consensus though is not to spend too much more investment. People are saying that a stall in a market will not attract high prices so are saying not really much point in spending nearly £2k on a proper espresso machine when the main customers are the elderly who just want "milky coffee" and faggots and peas.

Therefore do I keep it as instant coffee, just with a new urn etc (as the espresso machine that came with it is knackered) and possibly a stand alone steam arm to try and do cappuccino or latte's, although I do think the proper espresso machine is kind of disguising the instant coffee situation, even though they know it is

Want to make this work, just not sure loads more investment is the way to go ???

 

[STDFR33]

If you don't change anything, I can't see how you will be able to compete with competitors that are already offering the same and doing better than you.

If you are going to continue with no changes, it's probably best to cut your losses and get a job.

 

[Chris Ashdown]

Here is a small Expresso machine at £550.00 which obviously is a home machine but would probably be good as a tester and always take home if decide to pull the curtain on it

Sage The Barista Express Espresso Machine and Grinder - Stainless Steel

https://www.google.co.uk/webhp?sour...&newwindow=1&tbm=shop&spd=6634363884738219126

 

[Ian J]

Here is a small Expresso machine at £550.00 which obviously is a home machine but would probably be good as a tester and always take home if decide to pull the curtain on it

The problem with machines like this is the time taken to make a coffee with this one taking 2 mins 45 seconds which is far too slow for commercial use. Imagine what would happen if three people came in together all asking for coffee

 

[Scott-Copywriter]

General consensus though is not to spend too much more investment. People are saying that a stall in a market will not attract high prices so are saying not really much point in spending nearly £2k on a proper espresso machine when the main customers are the elderly who just want "milky coffee" and faggots and peas.

Therefore do I keep it as instant coffee, just with a new urn etc (as the espresso machine that came with it is knackered) and possibly a stand alone steam arm to try and do cappuccino or latte's, although I do think the proper espresso machine is kind of disguising the instant coffee situation, even though they know it is

Want to make this work, just not sure loads more investment is the way to go ???

It's not working though, is it? Calling them your main customers is moot if your business is failing when you pander to this specific audience.

You need to appeal to far more than your "main customers" to make it work. I think anyone, regardless of their background or age, would take freshly ground coffee over instant.

You don't even necessarily have to rely on the "fancy" coffees. I frequently use a moka pot which is common in households across Italy:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moka_pot

and then top up a standard mug of the coffee with hot milk. It's the typical milky coffee (it doesn't even have any foam), but it's brewed with freshly ground beans instead of instant.

Pots like these can cost about £10-£20. The coffee they make doesn't taste as good as espresso coffee, but it's a heck of a lot better than instant (and smells a lot better too).

As for other items, go around the market stall and carry out a survey. Ask people what they want and what would persuade them to visit your stall. It's the best starting point for forming ideas.

 

[Chris Ashdown]

The problem with machines like this is the time taken to make a coffee with this one taking 2 mins 45 seconds which is far too slow for commercial use. Imagine what would happen if three people came in together all asking for coffee

Thats true but better than spending £2000 on a hunch, another cheaper option that may well be the best is this http://www.rombouts.com/uk/one-cup-filters-coffee.html and presumably you would get a trade price for them better than advertised

 

[Newchodge]

Just use a drip feed filter machine. But don't leave it stewing for more than half an hour.

 

[webgeek]

If you've got an older crowd as possible customers - try percolators. It'll give them that "harken back to the good old days" feeling that gives 'em the warm fuzzies.

It's not hard to find matching decor and go for a retro look.

Drip filter is easier and faster, but perc'd coffee has soul.

 

[Ian J]

perc'd coffee has soul.

I gave up on percolators as I like my coffee very hot. Having wasted money on loads of different solutions I finally ended up with a Nespresso machine as that was the only one I found that met my criteria of making hot, tasty coffee and being easy to wash up afterwards

 

[godoit]

I always thought about serving coffees to the parents at my breakfast club. Couldn't get past the accidents with the kids running around, but I thought the only way to make it cost effective speedy and no training for the staff was to get a couple of nespresso machines.
If you get domestic ones from John lewis/Argos, able to return then and get replacements instantly. I know the cost per cup is massive compared to espresso or moka but I would buy it in the right environment where I wouldn't drink instant if you paid me a tenner a cup. Plus all in for 500 quid, 2 machines and milk frothers. (Personally I would go for lavazza rather than nespresso for the ethical side of the companies).

 

[Newchodge]

Remember the consumers. This is a market stall. How much would you have to charge for a cup of Nesspresso or Lavazza? How many people would pay it when they normally buy a mug of something hot and wet for 70p?

 

[webgeek]

Remember the consumers. This is a market stall. How much would you have to charge for a cup of Nesspresso or Lavazza? How many people would pay it when they normally buy a mug of something hot and wet for 70p?

THAT is THE question!

 

[MikeJ]

Maybe it's a question that should be asked of Donald Trump

 

[Chris Ashdown]

What stall does he have and what market?

 

[MikeJ]

I just wondered how much he pays for a mug of something warm and wet.

 

[ValleysGuy1975]

Hi

It's a little coffee stall in an indoor market in South Wales

Currently charge £1.10 for small instant coffee and £1.25 for a small "milky", cappuccino or latte (but still using instant coffee base)

Not sure prices can go up much hence my dilemma !

 

[godoit]

why not one pod machine circa £100 with some compatible pods, should reduce the cots to something like 15p per cup (from 35p for genuine nescafe pods). Low investment trial it alongside the instant with a price increase for the premium, then you can add the flavour shots for extra costs.
And if it doesn't work then you have a great coffee machine at home or worst case, you know your cistomer market.

 

[ValleysGuy1975]

Hi
Thanks for this suggestion. Will have to do some research as not totally sure which machines you are meaning or about the compatible pods.

Do you think I would be as well to keep the "broken" espresso machine in place, as does it give the illusion of quality when someone walks by ?

Am also considering a jacket potato oven as a lot of traders think that could be my USP. Just trying to find a re-conditioned one.

 

[godoit]

compatible pods are not made by nespresso and a bit cheaper here's and article by telegraph just for info. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/...apsules-in-your-Nespresso-coffee-machine.html

illusion of quality could be or unrealistic expectations for the customers. personally i wouldn't as it takes up space and you could be using it to sell something there (crisps, jacket potatoes, pies etc).

 

[STDFR33]

Hi
Thanks for this suggestion. Will have to do some research as not totally sure which machines you are meaning or about the compatible pods.

Do you think I would be as well to keep the "broken" espresso machine in place, as does it give the illusion of quality when someone walks by ?

Am also considering a jacket potato oven as a lot of traders think that could be my USP. Just trying to find a re-conditioned one.

As long as you don't mind embarrassing conversations that it's broken when somebody asks for one ...

"It was broken 2 weeks ago when I last came".
"It was broken two weeks ago, and the two weeks before that".
"I've come three times now over 6 weeks and it's always broken".

 

[Ally Maxwell]

Hi
Thanks for this suggestion. Will have to do some research as not totally sure which machines you are meaning or about the compatible pods.

Do you think I would be as well to keep the "broken" espresso machine in place, as does it give the illusion of quality when someone walks by ?

Am also considering a jacket potato oven as a lot of traders think that could be my USP. Just trying to find a re-conditioned one.

Have you tried getting your machine fixed ?? What make is it ? have you looked it up online ?

I inherited a mains connected instant boiler with steam wand (about 3k new at the time). Instanta wanted £500 to repair a fault. Looked it up online and it was a common fault. Instanta wanted £90 for the part. Turned out to be a 90 degree washing machine inlet valve with a relay. £3 off ebay. Fitted it and machine ran for the three years I had it without problems

 

[Jeff Nev]

Sorry to hear you are struggling to turn a profit. Clearly the biggest issues lie in making sure your product is good quality, which others have already discussed in great detail. Once you're in a better position on that front then you really need to think about why customers would want to come to your shop over the guy selling coffee for 70p next door. What's the identity? Artisan coffee shops have the potential to turn over a tidy profit if there is the appetite for that kind of thing locally.

You might consider having a soft relaunch of the business and running a promotion to get new customers through the door? There are lots of options, but it all depends on how much it is costing you to keep the business running at a loss. If you do decide to give it another push, make sure you have an idea as to when to cut your losses if it doesn't work out. Best of luck.

 

[ValleysGuy1975]

Hi Guys

Feeling a bit unsure this morning as have had two days this week with a gross profit of less than £10 for the whole day and yes that is before I even take off the cost of the coffee etc.

I simply cant go on like this !

I have done a lot of research and that is telling me that I will not get that many customers wanting real ground coffee as there are at least 2 or 3 places on the actual high street that do that already and that they wouldn't come in the indoor market for that. They reckon I would be wasting my money. They say that the indoor market has got a reputation of being "cheap and cheerful" and I would not be able to get rid of that opinion on my own.

A couple of suggestions are baked potatoes and hot dogs as food and just an urn and steam wand to carry on with the "instant lattes and cappuccinos". Could prob just about get all of this for around £1k if I went used on the potato oven and then got the hot dog later on. They also suggesting a Slush Machine for the summer but that is more expense again.

I just not sure. I want it to work but not sure it going to. I just don't know though that I can walk away from £4k as that is still a lot of money. Either way I am likely to be subbing myself £1,000 a month, whether I invest the £1k more into the business and hope it works or if I walk as I will not get a job overnight. Could probably support myself from savings for about 3 months but that was meant to be a house bond, not to live on.

With regard to fixing current machine it is a Francino brand and approx. 15 years old. Have had a visual quote of at least £350-£400 but could be a lot more once stripped down in the workshop. Their advice was that it had seen its day and wasn't worth spending the money on. Would also be without a machine at all for at least 2 weeks whilst it was in workshop

Opinions please of what you would do if it is was you.

Thanks

 

[japancool]

OK, let's start this over again.

First of all, WHO goes into the market? These are your potential customers. Forget what people are buying in the high street.

 

[UrbanRetail]

Also, what would you estimate the footfall to be on average day?

 

[ValleysGuy1975]

The main people that go into the market are the elderly and sometimes mothers with toddlers in prams to go to the baby shop opposite.

Footfall to the indoor market in general is very low. Maybe only about 60-70 people per day

 

[Newchodge]

How many coffee type places are there in the market?

 

[japancool]

Hmm. If only 60-70 people are going into the market, you're seriously going to struggle. A 10% conversion rate for passing traffic would be 6-7 customers a day and most retailers would kill babies to get that kind of conversion.

So either:
1) You give reason for people who are NOT going into the market to go in there specifically to buy your products.
2) You sell more to the people who do go in.
3) You walk away.

I have to say, with that level of footfall, I suspect 3 might be the most sensible option.

You could perhaps do 1 by making your café a themed coffee shop to attract a different crowd but is that realistic?

 

[ValleysGuy1975]

There are about 6 cafés in the indoor market.

Most of them are greasy spoon type doing typical all day breakfasts or faggots and peas, which is why the previous on converted mine into more of a coffee stall with snacks, but doesn't look like that is what the clientele of the indoor market want

 

[Newchodge]

You could see if anyone would buy it, to try to recoup some of your investment.

 

[japancool]

6 cafes servicing 60-70 people a day? How do they all stay in business?

 

[ValleysGuy1975]

Hmm. If only 60-70 people are going into the market, you're seriously going to struggle. A 10% conversion rate for passing traffic would be 6-7 customers a day and most retailers would kill babies to get that kind of conversion.

3) You walk away.

I have to say, with that level of footfall, I suspect 3 might be the most sensible option.

You could perhaps do 1 by making your café a themed coffee shop to attract a different crowd but is that realistic?

I am beginning to think this is what I need to do but am wondering if I should put the last £1k into it and give it say 3-6 months but looking for a job at same time.

It does break my heart thought if I do literally give the keys to the market manager and walk away, cause I am effectively giving him a £4,000 cheque on a plate and for them to do whatever they want for the business I bought.

 

[ValleysGuy1975]

6 cafes servicing 60-70 people a day? How do they all stay in business?

A lot of the greasy spoon type do have their regular customers, mostly over the age of 65. Some seem very busy whilst others do only have a trickle of customers, maybe 3 or 4 at any one time

 

[Clinton]

You could see if anyone would buy it, to try to recoup some of your investment.

This is not something I would recommend.

If the business is struggling, there won't be a queue of buyers. What'll happen instead is that the vendor will approach a few business brokers, pick one of the low-end no-sale-no-fee brokers, get listed on one of the business for sale portals and languish there for months building up further losses in the hope that someone will come along one day to buy their business.

Even worse, some of these low end brokers are highly exploitative scam artists and the OP could end up losing a lot more money, even their house. I know brokers inside out - that's my speciality - and I would not trust any broker who'd take a business like this on.

Sometimes it's best to just admit a mistake, cut one's losses and walk away.

 

[UrbanRetail]

6 cafes servicing 60-70 people a day? How do they all stay in business?

Agreed.

I am beginning to think this is what I need to do but am wondering if I should put the last £1k into it and give it say 3-6 months but looking for a job at same time.

It does break my heart thought if I do literally give the keys to the market manager and walk away, cause I am effectively giving him a £4,000 cheque on a plate and for them to do whatever they want for the business I bought.

Do you have a picture of your stall at all? or of the market in general?

 

[ValleysGuy1975]

You could see if anyone would buy it, to try to recoup some of your investment.

I have got it on the market privately (facebook etc) currently for just over what I paid for it as I have bought some new equipment and stock. Trouble is that people know I have only just bought it and probably guess why I am now trying to sell it.

Other traders are saying Jan is always a bad month so wondering if I should just try and ride the storm.

 

[Newchodge]

If there is a footfall of 100 people a day (slightly optimistic) and of those 50% want some form of refreshment (very optimistic) and there are 6 refreshment outlets, the average number of customers is less than 10 per day each. As you say, some customers will always go to the same outlet, reducing your potential customer base to, probably, 5 per day. Assuming they all spend £5.00 (optimistic) your turnover will be about £25 per day.

What do you think might happen in February to improve these figures? Or are my figures totally wrong somewhere?

 

[japancool]

I have got it on the market privately (facebook etc) currently for just over what I paid for it as I have bought some new equipment and stock. Trouble is that people know I have only just bought it and probably guess why I am now trying to sell it.

Other traders are saying Jan is always a bad month so wondering if I should just try and ride the storm.

But does footfall increase over the rest of the year?