Help Needed Customer Threatening to take us to Court

[deltauk]

Dear Everyone,

I hope you will be able to help me or point me towards the right direction.

Background


[FONT=&quot][/FONT]
After using the table and chairs by customer XYZ, we received an email that the original table (bought in Jan09) has developed a crack (this was in Sep 09). As a company procedure we requested them to forward some pictures so that we can look into it in much more detail. Until this happened, we never ever had an issued with a crack in an item particularly in XYZ range or any other range of furniture we sell.
As the table was used for a long time we were only suppose to offer a repair to fix the joint, this joint which has opened up could be due to various reasons, sudden movement, heating or the environment it is used or misuse of the unit.
We agreed to replace the item as a goodwill gesture.
The second table delivered developed crack (in NOV 09) this is not only unusual but unheard of a piece of furniture developing a crack. We replaced this again at our cost with a brand new one, even though you were only entitled to a repair.

We were again informed on 6th of March 2110 that the third table has developed a crack in the unit.
We were expected to either offer a full refund on everything including the chairs which had no issues what so ever by the end of day by customer. (VERY RUDELY)
The customer on 8th of March over the phone, mentioned to close the matter if we will offer you £250 table compensation and £79.99 delivery compensation by the end of day. They insisted that this is the cost of their time to fix the table.
We decided that instead of putting the customer in this situation of repairing the table we will get a professional company to carry the job and we will pay for all charges.
We received another email that the customer won’t like it to be repaired and expect us to refund the money for everything including the chairs, tables and delivery. This not only seemed very odd as when we agreed to the repair (which they wanted on the first place) was no longer an option.
We explained all the details to Trading standards including what we are doing to resolve the issue.
Finally we proposed that we will offer the customer:
1. Repair by a professional company
2. £79.99 inconvenience compensation (refund of delivery)
3. Replacement with a brand new unit

Today the customer sent a letter that they will take us to court if we don’t refund the money which includes the full cost of table and 4 chairs. Please note there are no issue with the chairs which are made in the same wood using the same material etc.

Please can someone help us as we don’t know what rights we have? The trading standard informed us that the customer is pulling a fast one and we should stick by offering them a replacement, repair and some money towards the inconvenience.

The customer threatened us that she works for a law firm and will make sure she sues us for everything and more importantly will spoil our name and business online. I am worried sick as how can someone treat a business like this.


[FONT=&quot]Look forward to hear.

Regards
Deltauk[/FONT]

 

[Optegris]

Tell her to go for it as it sounds like you have been more than reasonable.

I love it when customers mention they are a solicitor/work for a law firm/blah de blah as if they did or knew they had a solid case against you they wouldn't even bother mentioning it.

 

You seem to miss one thing in your case story. Were the first two tables returned to you? Have you ever had a chance to discover the cause of the cracknig?
Everything seems clear otherwise.

 

[deltauk]

Dear openmind/dsigner,

Thanks for your reply. I did have a look at both the tables and i can confirm this is the first time this has happened. I showed the pics to supplier who also mentioned the same thing. Each time i have replaced it has cost me the delivery and return charge of £100 (together)

She is saying to me that you dont know "who i am" and what i can do. You will regret not refunding the money by end of day (12.3.09)

I spoke to Trading Standards and they said you are doing everything to help the customer but she is not after either putting us thorugh this or simply making money out of this.

I have been sent a letter in post saying HMRC court will issue procedings if you dont pay today.

I am really stressing and concern as i dont even know how to deal with this.

I am very honest and again said to her pls let me send a company to repair or replace it with fresh batch.

She is having none of it

Please help anyone.

regards
D

 

[bovine]

Did they really say HMRC court was going to issue proceedings? If so, unless im begin really dense, you have nothing to worry about because Her Majestys Revenue and Customs really arent interested!

 

[MikeD08]

Gubbins! She's talking gubbins and trying to take advantage of your good nature. I've come across people like this on more than one occasion over the years.

My advise; don't worry about it (easier said than done!), sit back and wait for her to carry out her threats. I seriously doubt she'll make much noise once she realises you aren't going to take whatever nonsense she throws at you.

I'm sure Trading Standards would agree that you have done all you can to help and resolve the situation and if the client doesn't want your help then that's her problem.

Have a cup of tea and a biscuit and try not let it get you down to much.

And Good Luck!

 

Courts are not so frightening.
Get your documentation together with everything in date order. Leave nothing out good or bad. Make notes for every stage of the paper trail so that you are prepared for questions and send the "see you in court letter". Chances are they won't follow through.
When it is clear that there is going to be a court case you will also need your customer complaints file showing all complaints you have received (not just from this customer) and how they were resolved. Some documentation of favourable customer opinions and a couple of people to provide character witness if required. That should about do it.

 

[deltauk]

Dear Everyone,

Yes i can confirm she was rude and difficult and wont let me even speak on the phone last week. Thats when Trading Standard mentioned just send a register letter and thats how you should correspond from now on.

She did send a letter and emailed me that Her Majesty court service will be notified and procedings will be issued. She also mentioned i am going to small court for my time and also stress cause of this.

I am doing everything i can (hand on my heart) i would love to repair or replace the unit but i need a chance to do this.

She just dosent want me to do anything apart from collect the used chairs (been used for a year) and refund the money for everything.

As a company we are very very small and i cant afford to do this, although i am prepared to pay for repair or replacement.

Please can you tell what should i write to her as she mentioned in her email ( a letter has been sent) pls see the points mentioned : (if the money is not paid by end of day then court proceedings and other charges will be added)

I am very very stressed and cant focus on anything.

regards
D

 

[JElder]

I've been on the other side a couple of times, and small claims are not too complex. You are generally expected to defend in person.

You seem to have a good timeline for what has happened, and have offered some reasonable solutions (which the court WILL take into consideration). The court is free to find on either side, but the damages will be limited to what it feels are acceptable - likely to be replacement/refund of the table only.

Wait until you get the court papers, state you are planning on filing a defence as a refund of the entire amount is not an appropriate remedy for damage to a single item. Get your timeline together, get witness statements (for you, the manufacturer, anyone else who has dealt with it), and copies of correspondence. Point out in the statement as you have done here - not seen it before, may be due to environmental factors - without being too obvious and saying 'it was their fault!'

Unfortunately the case will be local to them, so hope it is not too far to travel. You can also make a formal offer of the cost of replacing the table. If it goes to court, AND they win, and the court finds that is all you owe, they have to pay their own costs.

Try not to panic. The small claims court is pretty informal with you, them and a Judge. Solicitors are generally not involved as you cannot claim most of their costs from the other side if you win, and would costs thousands to attend a case!

 

[Cobby]

I'm amazed you've gone as far as you have in replacing/repairing the product. If the damage is as unusual as you say, it's likely caused by customer misuse - an independent inspection by a qualified person would surely show this?

Having replaced it once is good customer service, twice is above and beyond, but after that I'd have personally drawn the line, especially given the customer's attitude.

 

[MH1]

Unfortunately the case will be local to them, so hope it is not too far to travel.

I think you can ask the case to be moved local too yourself, never had to do it myself so I might be wrong.

 

[applemaidcleaning]

I would not of replaced this 2nd time - warranty terms?

Also you need to get what trading standards said to you on paper

Also they all say they are legal reps or my brother is!!!

I would tell them to jump after all the cost / time you have put on this customer and they want full refund? You have done your duty as far as i can see regarding your customer services - sod them off i say and wait for the letter from solicitor :

 

[applemaidcleaning]

Also just a thought! are they sealed / varnished / treated

If i am correct wood expands / shrinks in heat / rain / snow!

 

[saxondale]

send the lot (chairs table and crumbs) back to your supplier, give her her money and get some sort of life back.

stories like this kill people






;..

 

[deltauk]

Dear All,

Many Thanks for the reply. The tables are made from reclaimed oak wood which clearly advertised that it has been taken from old building, schools etc. We never have a issue where all 3 items are damaged.

I made the supplier aware and they made the factory aware of this. The items are made from the same wood and they make around 40 different items.

The lady is very very rude and crossing the line of being civil. She wanted me to pay her £250 cash on Monday for 2 hours of her time as she "this is what is the cost of her 2 hours time worth". I can easily get this table repaired in 48 hours by a prof company who will also accomodate evening or weekend timings.

I have been thinking what should be my next approach...

I replaced it with a goodwill gesture and she was so nice when it happened first time and talked me thorough by asking to be replaced than repaired.

I have no idea what is she doing with them..the chairs are made from the same wood and have no issue what so ever...

I even offered to replace it with the fresh batch only i have left it open in the warehouse for 30 days so if something will go wrong it will in that time...

Really confused and upset

Regards
D

 

[Geoff T]

How much are we actually talking about here? just seen the amount, just jump to the next point!

if me - and it's less than a thou, I'd reply in the most civil manner...

"See you in court"

then - under my breath - would say to myself "B***H!"

She's trying to bully you OP - full on, too - don't cave in...

They're skint - and panicked, and trying to bully cash out of anyone daft enough to fall for it...

You've gone above and beyond already IMO

 

[mcgovern]

Dear All,

Many Thanks for the reply. The tables are made from reclaimed oak wood which clearly advertised that it has been taken from old building, schools etc. We never have a issue where all 3 items are damaged.

I made the supplier aware and they made the factory aware of this. The items are made from the same wood and they make around 40 different items.

The lady is very very rude and crossing the line of being civil. She wanted me to pay her £250 cash on Monday for 2 hours of her time as she "this is what is the cost of her 2 hours time worth". I can easily get this table repaired in 48 hours by a prof company who will also accomodate evening or weekend timings.

I have been thinking what should be my next approach...

I replaced it with a goodwill gesture and she was so nice when it happened first time and talked me thorough by asking to be replaced than repaired.

I have no idea what is she doing with them..the chairs are made from the same wood and have no issue what so ever...

I even offered to replace it with the fresh batch only i have left it open in the warehouse for 30 days so if something will go wrong it will in that time...

Really confused and upset

Regards
D

I would let her go to court, put in a defence and make life hard for her, if you are being reasonable the judge will take this into account, and yes you can have the hearing transfered local to yourself.

She seems to be taking the michael

 

[Muz]

Tell her to go for it as it sounds like you have been more than reasonable.

I love it when customers mention they are a solicitor/work for a law firm/blah de blah as if they did or knew they had a solid case against you they wouldn't even bother mentioning it.

Yep thats been my experience .. I've been threatened by some jumped up legal clerk, who thought she had the full force of her office on her side, but she wasnt so full of herself after I stood my ground and pointed out how much I'd done to help her, and that there were points of negligence on her side she could not disprove !! .. sounds like you are in the same boat deltauk, and I think too you have been more that reasonable.

If she runs with it.. it might give you hastle, but sometimes its worth standing your ground first, as the complainants bark is often worse than their bite IMHO, and you can always capitulate at a later date if needs be

 

[mobyme]

Let it go to court you have been more than reasonable.
I would however cover yourself for the future with something along the lines of

"Our products are made from reclaimed Oak timber, please be aware that it is possible that shrinkage and cracks may occur due to climate changes; it is recommended that these are treated by filling with beeswax which will infill and smooth the surface, while adding to the character of the finish."

within your terms and conditions.

 

[kirkydee]

Hi deltauk, just reading this and wondering if you've heard anything back from this customer or what you decided to do.

My husband is having similar problems with a customer so you have my sympathies, its awful when you work hard to make an honest living and someone tries to threaten that.

Hope everything has worked out ok for you.

 

[deltauk]

Hi Everyone,

I have sent two letters to customer and she has not replied to me. I gave her an option to completely change the table from a sister range which has no known issues etc.

She has so far not replied to me. Please can you let me know what should i do now?

Thanks
delta

 

[kirkydee]

Hi, when did you send out the letters? Did you send them registered post? Did you give her a date to respond by or just ask her to contact you?

Just asking as when I spoke to Trading Standards about my husbands situation they advised me to make sure I sent all letters registered post so they couldn't argue that they hadn't got the letters and to give them a
deadline for responding.

Have you spoken to Trading Standards again? They were really good with us but their advice for us now is to take our customer to court.

 

[harry munker]

I,m sure youre already doing it but just make sure any correspondence is logged/dated etc between the two parties.Does sound like she is pulling a fast one but can still understand how worrying it must be for you when you are trying hard to resolve the situation.

maybe the best option is to make apayment just to get rid of her and dont sell the items to her again.She does sound like a professional trouble maker and you do get them in life.She doesnt have a lot to lose you on the other hand do.

 

[deltauk]

Hi,

Thanks for your reply, I did send the letter by registered post (both times) to customer and trading standards.

I will send a further letter with a reply by date on Friday.

Thanks
Delta

 

[deltauk]

Hi Everyone,

The customer has sent me court summons and requested refund for the dining table and chairs. The chairs were bought 5 months later. I need to prepare my defence and i am panicking now. Not sure how to handle this.

I have done my very best to resolve the issue, the last letter i posted she refuse to take it from Royal mail and they have returned it back to me.

I just need to file my defence and take it from there. I have agreed to refund the cost of the dining table but will be defending the refund for chairs.

Please could you let me know if i am doing the right thing?

Regards
Delta

 

[Cobby]

At this point you're beyond the point that helpful suggestions from a forum are going to help. Go and talk to an actual solicitor. Good luck.

 

[justintime]

Hi Everyone,

The customer has sent me court summons and requested refund for the dining table and chairs. The chairs were bought 5 months later. I need to prepare my defence and i am panicking now. Not sure how to handle this.

I have done my very best to resolve the issue, the last letter i posted she refuse to take it from Royal mail and they have returned it back to me.

I just need to file my defence and take it from there. I have agreed to refund the cost of the dining table but will be defending the refund for chairs.

Please could you let me know if i am doing the right thing?

Regards
Delta

You are definitely doing the right thing. In your defence, state the timeline as you have here and the remedies you took. In particular state that you offered the customer a repair or replacement on the latest table together with compensation but this was refused. If the chairs were not bought at the same time as the original table she hasn't a leg to stand on.

 

[deltauk]

Hi Everyone,

I am very grateful to everyone who helped and pointed me towards the right direction.

I am still not able to resolve this issue; to cut the long story short I agreed to refund £624.99 to the customer, this based on the fact she agreed that I can collect the dining table after the payment was made on 20th May.

You can all guess it right here..She refused to return my table on 21st May. I was left with no option to inform the court/police and then to her that this is consider as a theft. After 6 weeks the police informed me that we can’t help you as it’s a civil matter and you need to make a claim against her for the required sum.

I did exactly that and sent a claim to her for the money as basically she had the table and the refund. I guess you all will agree that she can’t not have the table and the money.

I received another letter on Friday that she has counter claimed my claim and asking me for £1000 for costs she incurred, basically 2 hours waiting time at £65 an hour (£130) x 3 time -£490

The cost of assembly at £55 x 2 (£110) x £330 and other charges which makes the final claim total of £1000 plus £60 costs.

I am shocked to my guts that i feel sick, not only she got the table, a refund £624.99, now wants me to pay another £1k for the charges she mentioned.

I have till 15th of August to send my reply to the court. Please can someone help me as I am losing sleep over it...

I am so so upset. Please help me.

Regards
Delta

 

[Clarkmans]

She can only claim for an actual loss and not for stress or her time spent sorting the matter out. She can only claim legal costs if the matter was above the small claims limit which I suspect it wasn't. Further it sounds as though you have already agreed a settlement of the previous case so she cannot now try and claim more as that matter has been resolved.

You should enter a short defence to the counterclaim when you file the allocation questionnaire. If you want to email me the counterclaim I'll draft a defence for you free of charge.

You should try not to worry about this too much. Unfortunately some people are just a real pain!

Let us know the outcome!

Clare

 

[deltauk]

She can only claim for an actual loss and not for stress or her time spent sorting the matter out. She can only claim legal costs if the matter was above the small claims limit which I suspect it wasn't. Further it sounds as though you have already agreed a settlement of the previous case so she cannot now try and claim more as that matter has been resolved.

You should enter a short defence to the counterclaim when you file the allocation questionnaire. If you want to email me the counterclaim I'll draft a defence for you free of charge.

You should try not to worry about this too much. Unfortunately some people are just a real pain!

Let us know the outcome!

Clare

Dear Clare,

Many Thanks for your reply, I run an honest small business and feel cheated that some people can go to any lenght, this money i had to pay is my two months rent so you can imagine how much it hurts.

I will be working on my defence and questionaire and will send it to you tom. I cant thank you enough for helping me out.

I forgot to mention that on 20th of May my delivery company called the customer and she agreed once i have paid the money they can collect the dining table on the 21st of May.

The customer sends me a letter saying it was never agreed that she will return the table as "this was not part of the deal". I have a written proof from the delivery company that she mentioned to return the table to them.

Just feel so stupid that i gave her the money on the basis that i can collect my damage table !!!

Regards
Delta

 

[kirkydee]

Your customer sounds similar to one my husband has been dealing with for the last 8 months. She sent threatening texts saying her solicitors said she had a good case and she would win and he would end up paying her a fortune. She said he'd spilt paint on her carpets in January but despite him asking 5 times to go and see the damage and his insurance company asking for proof twice she never proved the damage.

It is really worrying and I completely understand how you feel. My husband has been in court today. The customer didn't turn up and the judge ruled in our favour within 2 minutes of us being in the court room. We kept records of everything and made sure that we were doing everything we should by checking with Trading Standards.

From what you've said it sounds like you have also bent over backwards to help this lady but she's just trying to bully you basically. If you've refunded her then I cannot see how she can possibly claim for anything else, she's just trying it on and trying to frighten you.

I wish you luck and hope you can the same outcome as we have today.

 

[kulture]

I suspect you have a customer who is a bully. She has bullied you into refunding her and now she is bullying you into paying her more damages.

You must never give in to bullies. I feel that you have enough evidence to SUE HER. She has not returned the table. Threaten her with a counter suit.

DO NOT GIVE IN TO HER. If she continues, make her take it all the way. What have you got to loose.

 

[deltauk]

Hi,

Please can someone let me know what should I put in statement of defence, I need to send these today to court. I understand i need to fill in the questionaire with my defence. Any ideas/ help will be really appreciated.

Regards
Delta

 

[deltauk]

Hi,

I have prepared my defence and would like some advice on what should I add to the letter. Any help will be appreciated.

Regards
Delta

 

[deltauk]

Hi Everyone,

Here I am back again, updating what is going on since I have filed my defence.

I have recieved a letter from court to come for hearing on Nov 17. Is it normal for court to ask for £100 for hearing fee?

I just dont know what and how to deal with court. I have never been to court in my life.

Please can someone help me or advice me? Any help will be much appreciated.

Regards
Delta

 

[kirkydee]

Hi

My husband went to court a few months ago with his case against one of his customers who hadn't paid him. As he was the claimant, he had to pay the court costs and then when the judge ruled in his favour the court costs were then added on to what the defendant owed him. I'm not really sure why you have been asked to pay £100 court fee, try ringing the court office and asking them, our local court staff have been really helpful when I have spoken to them about my husbands case.

As for going to court, I went in with my husband, I had to apply to do that, I'd done all the paperwork and spoken with trading standards etc so they let me attend too. We were both really nervous but it wasn't half as bad as we expected. It was just in a little meeting type room with the judge, us and the defendant, but she didn't turn up. The judge was really nice, he had copies of all our paperwork already and just asked my husband for a very brief summary of what had happened. We were in and out within 5 minutes. Just take copies of all your records, letters you've sent and the defence you've filed, just incase you are nervous and forget anything.

Good luck

 

[deltauk]

Hi,

Thanks for your advice, I am not sure why i need to pay £100. I will call the courts on Monday and then see what happens. Really worried as never been into this situation before.

Thanks
D

 

[ANOTHER REBEL]

When you win the case, as undoubtedly you will, do not forget to ask the Court to award you costs.

Prepare a schedule of all the correspondence etc., and charge so much per letter. £30.00 would be a good starting point, as this is not unreasonable. The Judge may cut it down, but if you argue that her unreasonable behaviour has resulted in you spending time and money on this case, that could have been spent more profitably elsewhere, he should grant at least a part of what you claim.

The important thing is to always stay calm and polite. Let her if she turns up be the one who sounds unreasonable.

 

[deltauk]

Hi Guys,

I have tried to call court to pay the fees but cant get through, do you know how i can pay this hearing cost.

Also i will appreciate if someone can let me know what documents i need on hearing, also can i take a friend with me?

More importantly is there any way i can ask them to change the location for hearing? I would have to take all day off from work for this.

Look forward to hear.

Regards
D

 

[Clarkmans]

Hi DeltaUK

Are you the Claimant in this matter?

If so that is why the hearing fee is payable. You can pay it by cheque made payable to 'HMCS' or some of the courts accept debit cards but if you cannot get through by phone probably not an option!

The hearing is normally at the Defendant's local county court. You would have received an allocation questionnaire and that would have been the time to specify a particular court. If it is really inconvenient then you could write to the court and ask them to change but you'll need a good reason why you cannot travel and why the Defendant should travel to you.

You can take a friend to the hearing and if you are uncomfortable speaking they can ask for permission to speak for you and act as your McKenzie's friend. If you are a witness you will still have to answer any questions the judge has.

You should take copy documents to the hearing for example proof of the money you are owed, evidence of problems with the works etc (I've not read through all the posts) This should be sent to the otherside and court 14 days before the hearing together with a witness statement. It will normally tell you to do this on the court order.

Good luck!

Clare