HELP! I WhatsApp'd the wrong Gemma :(

[VintageCarBroker]

FacePalm!

We are in vintage car and motorbike restoration and I have an employee called Gemma X who is on her final written warning for a string of ongoing poor conduct issues. (Sadly, she has been with us for more than 2 years). I also have an accounts manager called Gemma Y.

I intended to Whatsapp Gemma Y to ask for "3 years worth of sales figures to show that we now sell 30% less cars than when we hired Gemma X because I was looking for a way to lower Gemma X's hours without breaching her contract. "

You guessed it, I Whatsapped Gemma X instead of Gemma Y.

Gemma X was furious, swearing and shouting in front of co-workers, calling me a "sad bastard" and an "evil idiot". She walked out saying "I'm not working here, I'm off to get another job" but then came back 30 minutes later after I apologised.

Gemma X's final written warning was only 3 weeks ago and since then I've logged 3 or 4 instances of her poor conduct that violates what was specifically agreed within the final written warning document.

I feel almost ready to call a final meeting to discuss the new incidents of misconduct followed by a dismissal but I'm wondering DOES THIS WHATSAPP COCK-UP LAND ME IN HOT WATER IF I GET TAKEN TO TRIBUNAL?

 

[Newchodge]

It rather depends on what, exactly, you said.

I am also very confused. If you have clear and ongoing evidence of her misconduct why were you dredging for evidence to support (apparently) redundancy?

 

[VintageCarBroker]

It rather depends on what, exactly, you said.

I am also very confused. If you have clear and ongoing evidence of her misconduct why were you dredging for evidence to support (apparently) redundancy?

I said "We are trying to find a way to drop her hours without breaching her employment contract. If we can show that we have a lower work load due to less sales lately that could help."

We were investigating redundancy to keep both options open to us and later choose the best route.

 

[Newchodge]

I said "We are trying to find a way to drop her hours without breaching her employment contract. If we can show that we have a lower work load due to less sales lately that could help."

We were investigating redundancy to keep both options open to us and later choose the best route.

Is she the only member of staff who could be responsible for reduced sales, or whose role is reduced because of reduced sales?

 

[VintageCarBroker]

Is she the only member of staff who could be responsible for reduced sales, or whose role is reduced because of reduced sales?

Yes, she is the only person qualified to carry out her role.

 

[Newchodge]

Yes, she is the only person qualified to carry out her role.

That sounds like equivocation. I didn't ask about her qualifications and I asked 2 different questions.

You may be able to explain this in an ET without it destroying your case, but not if you sound evasive like that.

I suggest you seek professional advice with someone who can look at all the facts and advise you what you should do next.

 

[VintageCarBroker]

That sounds like equivocation. I didn't ask about her qualifications and I asked 2 different questions.

You may be able to explain this in an ET without it destroying your case, but not if you sound evasive like that.

I suggest you seek professional advice with someone who can look at all the facts and advise you what you should do next.

Thanks for your thoughts and suggestion.

To be more specific regarding your 2 questions:
She is not in any way responsible for reduced sales.
Nobody else's hours are negatively affected by reduced sales.

 

[fisicx]

Let this be a learnt lesson: don’t use WhatsApp for business!

Especially as every message you send is monitored and analysed by Facebook.

 

[VintageCarBroker]

Let this be a learnt lesson: don’t use WhatsApp for business!

Especially as every message you send is monitored and analysed by Facebook.

Whatsapp is end-to-end encrypted. No analysis is done by Facebook.
But that isn't the issue here. It could just as easily been an email.
What are your thoughts on the case here?

 

[Darren_Ssc]

Whatsapp is end-to-end encrypted. No analysis is done by Facebook.

Facebook hold the keys, just saying.

As for the case in hand, you have messed up and admitting as much could be a good way of resetting a poor relationship?

 

[Mark T Jones]

You really need to speak to an HR / legal pofessional.

The Watsapp is relatively minor in itself, but there is so much confusion in your post and responses that it is impossible to get any real context.

 

[Gordon - Commercial Finance]

She is not in any way responsible for reduced sales.

And yet you're trying to find evidence that suggests she is?
Very confusing

 

[NickGrogan]

Gemma X's final written warning was only 3 weeks ago and since then I've logged 3 or 4 instances of her poor conduct that violates what was specifically agreed within the final written warning document.

So fire her then, otherwise what is the point of the final written warning?

"3 years worth of sales figures to show that we now sell 30% less cars than when we hired Gemma X because I was looking for a way to lower Gemma X's hours without breaching her contract. "

So you don't want to fire her, just reduce her hours.

We were investigating redundancy to keep both options open to us and later choose the best route.

Why?

Is she the only member of staff who could be responsible for reduced sales, or whose role is reduced because of reduced sales?

She is not in any way responsible for reduced sales.
Nobody else's hours are negatively affected by reduced sales.

Are you trying to get her to take you to a tribunal?

If she is not doing a good job, then you need to do your job as a manager and fire her.

If she is doing a good job and you're looking to use warnings and irrelevant issues to reduce her hours, then do your job as a manager and manage the situation properly.

I'd also check out that your insurance covers you for tribunals.

 

[antropy]

"Hire slow, fire fast." Paul.

 

[antropy]

I think taking Gemma Y aside during the working day (maybe when Gemma X was in her lunch break) would have been better. As highlighted above best to talk to a HR representative as I can see Gemma X trying to use the whatsapp messages against you in order to go against another potential formal warning and her seemingly inevitable dismissal. Alex

 

[MikeJ]

And yet you're trying to find evidence that suggests she is?
Very confusing

No, he's trying to show there's less work for her because there's lower sales. If she's responsible for polishing the cars as they buyer takes them out, and there's less sales, then there's less work for her. It's not her fault, just the way it is.

 

[Gordon - Commercial Finance]

No, he's trying to show there's less work for her because there's lower sales. If she's responsible for polishing the cars as they buyer takes them out, and there's less sales, then there's less work for her. It's not her fault, just the way it is.

I see. I misunderstood.

 

[Darren_Ssc]

Just hope nobody called Gemma who works for a vintage car broker happens to find this thread?

 

[Newchodge]

Just hope nobody called Gemma who works for a vintage car broker happens to find this thread?

Let's hope the OP had the sense to use a pseudonym.

 

[VintageCarBroker]

OP used pseudonym and a different industry

I want to fire her, I think I have grounds to fire her. I'm just terrified of a tribunal fining me £20k for not following ACAS to the letter. That's why I offered her redundancy cash to walk away from this job.

Things have escalated today and yesterday (another racial joke). We are edging towards a dismissal.

 

[NickGrogan]

Edging towards a dismissal can also look a lot like constructive dismissal, especially when your reasons for "redundancy/dismissal" are a bit vague at best.

Was the first issue that you could have fired her for within her first 2 years? Why didn't you fire her then?

 

[billybob99]

Why didn't you use the nifty delete message feature in WhatsApp before she read it.

If she read it fast as hell, what's she doing on WhatsApp at work.

Use Telegram instead.

 

[Nico Albrecht]

Whatsapp is end-to-end encrypted. No analysis is done by Facebook.

The communication might be end to end encrypted but the actual WhatsApp data base on your phone is not. Any app pretty much can read that database on your phone. Hence the can't read the data during transfer but on your phone it is wide open.

 

[fisicx]

Whatsapp is end-to-end encrypted. No analysis is done by Facebook.

Here's a very good analysis if how FB is misleading you: https://medium.com/@gzanon/no-end-t...ok-from-accessing-whatsapp-chats-d7c6508731b2

And a real life story:
https://hackernoon.com/facebook-is-reading-my-encrypted-whatsapp-conversations-375d2eba0c18

 

[billybob99]

The communication might be end to end encrypted but the actual WhatsApp data base on your phone is not. Any app pretty much can read that database on your phone. Hence the can't read the data during transfer but on your phone it is wide open.

How does one of these apps un-encrypt the .cryptXX database without said encryption key?

Justing asking.

 

[Nico Albrecht]

How does one of these apps un-encrypt the .cryptXX database without said encryption key?

Justing asking.

If you are looking to decrypt a CRYPT12 to view the message history of the app's user you must locate the key file, which stores the encryption key. The key file is stored in the following location: /data/data/com.whatsapp/files/key

Never had any issues getting data from whatsapp via forensic tools. It is much harder gaining access to the root folder of a device. The only thing what's protecting you is the passcode on your phone. once the phone is unlocked databases such as contacts, etc.... can be easy extracted . Since whatsapp already has elevated priviliges within itself whatsapp would have no problem gaining acess to it and transmit data to FB.

It all depends what app you are using. If you wanna make a none traceable call tht even law enforcement cant trace I would recommand skype calls.

 

[Newchodge]

'm just terrified of a tribunal fining me £20k for not following ACAS to the letter.

The tribunal does not fine you. They make an award to the (ex) employee if they have been unfairly dismissed. Awards of more than £6,000 are unusual.

 

[billybob99]

Since whatsapp already has elevated priviliges within itself whatsapp would have no problem gaining acess to it and transmit data to FB.

That's why its probably there, to smuggle data to FB.

Doesn't seem to be any option to turn off local backups either.