Google

[Fisher Consultancy]

Hi guys, i just wondered how much something like google would cost to set up. Obviously it would not be as large as google, but i mean with the very basic look design with search capability.

For example if i set up a website for my local village or town using this style how much would something like that set me back.

Regards

 

[LINGsCARS]

The real question is: Why would anyone use that instead of Google? If they type what they want into Google/Yell/Whatever +townname, they will get far better results than you will serve.

If you wanted to search for something in Chengdu, China, my hometown... would you try to find a local Chengdu search engine? No. You would use Google.

If you want to search something in... Gateshead, the same applies.

Surely.

Plus, these local directories are always pish, out of date, messy and return many old results.

 

[dave_n]

Although google is the world's number 1 search engine with regards to websites and joe public searching for x,y and z, it is far from the best search engine...in fact a lot of it's underlying techology is outdated and introspective.

Any search engine quality is based upon the content descriptors - the old GIGO law but many of the better search engines actually use concept searching and best bet technology to actively categorise content information where there is loose coupling of meta data.

Although we all hope to get to number 1 in google dont be fooled into thinking google is the most accurate and intelligent search engine...it simply isn't.

I'll get my tin hat on now shall I?

 

[LINGsCARS]

Although google is the world's number 1 search engine with regards to websites and joe public searching for x,y and z, it is far from the best search engine...in fact a lot of it's underlying techology is outdated and introspective.

Any search engine quality is based upon the content descriptors - the old GIGO law but many of the better search engines actually use concept searching and best bet technology to actively categorise content information where there is loose coupling of meta data.

Although we all hope to get to number 1 in google dont be fooled into thinking google is the most accurate and intelligent search engine...it simply isn't.

I'll get my tin hat on now shall I?

hahaha, whatever... except that virtually EVERYONE who uses search in the UK uses Google.

Even then, with this local thing, you are up against Yahoo, MSM, Dogsh1te and all the others... how on earth can this work. (Serious respect if someone manages it with decent visitor numbers).

 

[FireFleur]

Well it is not that costly really if you are talking about basic search, the real expense is in the server maintenance for the volume, and Google cracked that be the Linux house, and using x86 technology.

They use a specialised MySQL engine, that never fails to raise debate in RDBMS circles, but it works well and can handle huge amounts of data, they also own some of the largest slabs of memory on the planet, it is much faster obviously to handle data off main memory than some form of backing store.

But, the base algorithm is fairly simple, sure it is honed, and it is not released but the actual logic would probably fill a small novel at most, maybe just a few chapters.

See, Google is a not search company, it is an adverising company, search is just one of the myriad of ways it supports the ad revenue it receives. When you add up all of google code the value is huge. They also have most of the geeks in their organisation now, and the labs keep pumping out more interesting stuff.

You can buy a google server, or at least you were able to for a while, but nowadays most are looking at the API to the google and producing stuff off that.

I like your idea, the web needs to go local that is the next move, well it is been on the cards a long time now, but people get seduced by the world element too easily.

 

hahaha, whatever... except that virtually EVERYONE who uses search in the UK uses Google.

You mean while they are watching big brother.

as said google is no glowing testimonial to search engine technology.

Crude as is its algo's ,hence why old godgers like me can whip its arse.

Earl

 

[dave_n]

hahaha, whatever... except that virtually EVERYONE who uses search in the UK uses Google.

Even then, with this local thing, you are up against Yahoo, MSM, Dogsh1te and all the others... how on earth can this work. (Serious respect if someone manages it with decent visitor numbers).

u automatically assume that everyone is searching websites....what about those people who want to search oracle databases, pdf's, documents, images, media files, other search engines, fileshares, exchange servers, messaging servers.

There is a reason that the corporate take up of google search technology is almost none existent.

And I wont even go into federated searching....

 

[nass]

I think it'd be quite entertaining to write a script that tries to copy the google algo, really just to mimic its ranking behaviour. You could learn a lot from that

 

[DotNetWebs]

...the web needs to go local that is the next move, well it is been on the cards a long time now, but people get seduced by the world element too easily...

I agree.

I have created, or am involved in, many 'local' projects now. I think the trick is not to try and compete with Google but to work with it.

For instance often businesses will have a web site that will not rank well on Google but our sites will act as feeders because they rank well for "Horsham" in conjunction their keyword. Also just linking to a business from one of our sites will help with the ranking on the target site.

We do get a lot of people using our Horsham Directory for direct searches when they just want something simple like a phone number of the store. We have the basic details of EVERY town centre business listed [and updated by the Town Centre management]. The 'target' phone number can usually be found by typing the first few letters of the business name in the "Search by Store" box (it will be even easier when I make the AJAX version available to the public).

A by product of my involvement in these sites is that I am getting more and more involved in 'local' SEO / web marketing for businesses I come into contact with. This is a fast developing area that also involves a lot of 'offline' networking etc. I am quite excited to be a part of it and am very glad to see local web alliances being formed rather than see this area being dominated by all the 'bestof' type franchises sucking money out of the local economy.

Regards

Dotty

 

[Moneyman]

I have to go with ling on this. however i think ling has the most non google site on the web. Hardly minimalist. I think if she was to try a google site she would copy every single page on the web into one massive page...scrollable in several dimentions.

 

[MattyB]

http://lucene.apache.org/nutch/

A bit of patience and luck and you can get Nutch up and running.

Jimmy Swales has used it as the crawler of choice for his new search engine

http://search.wikia.com/

 

[garyk]

Simple fact of the matter is it isnt a trivial task even ex google bods who were obviously smart have struggled with their offering 'cuil'. I dont see the point of local searches, as ling says you just append the town, city or county to narrow your search. With a localised search I can't 'zoom-out' to cover a wider area if thats what I need.

Of course everyone goes country/world wide on the web because there is little cost in terms of delivering a site to a global audience.

The thing is google came up with a *new* way of searching for content when it launched in comparison to the likes of alta vista and yahoo who were prominent back then. They launched as a search company because they were smart academics not business people, then thought 5hit, how do we make money from this?

 

[MattyB]

Like Microsoft, Google has dominated it's arena and come out on top.

Like Microsoft, Google will one day start facing a shaky future through competition. Lets face it Yahoo and MSN never been able to bring you decent results back the same way that google do. Ok some results in Google are spammy, but not to the same degree as it's competitors.

As to the reference about culi - how much of it's faliure has been down to how much google is incorporated into your every day browser.

FIREFOX - address bar and built in google search as default. Safari - Google search as default search. Google Toolbar for most major browsers. Why would you want to use anything else.

How ever - Semantic search is coming along to shake things up a little. We don't know who the winners or losers will be in this battle because it's barley started yet, but believe me this is going to be one hot battle.

Saying all that, I still think Google will this war too.

And what can we do to take advantage of these new search technologies?

Read up and incorporate some of the methodologies into your sites.

Further Reading
WIKIPEDIA:Semantic search

WIKIPEDIA: Semantic web

 

[Fisher Consultancy]

I totally disagree with ling!!!!

If you advertise your local search very well to people in the local area and online i think it would work very well. Its more personal, cheaper, and dedicated to one specific area, i hate franchises like 'thebestof'.

Local search is the future in my opinion!

 

[DotNetWebs]

...Local search is the future in my opinion!

Fisher I agree with you and what all the "just use Google" people seem to be missing is there are some great local businesses, who deserve to be no1 for certain key phrases, but for whatever reason don't currently feature on the Google Radar.

A good local directory will sit between Google and those sites and put them where they deserve to be.

Here is one of my examples:

http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q=strada+horsham&meta=

They have a NATIONAL site that does not rank well locally [page 4 for the above search and even that is not for the 'local' page].

We give them the no1 organic result, so even though people are using Google we still return the information that most people are looking for rather than countless other directories who have no connection with the business but have just copied the information of Yell etc.

Regards

Dotty

 

[LINGsCARS]

Can I ask what volume of traffic these local search sites get.

Also, where are they promoted?

 

[DotNetWebs]

Can I ask what volume of traffic these local search sites get.

Also, where are they promoted?

Well for us, being a small town. it's not so much the volume of traffic as the relevance of the results. As I said we are not trying to comepte with Google but supplement it.

Here is a typical example: a major retailer in the town told me they were doing a promotion of a well know fashion brand. They want people searching for this brand in our town to know they stock it. A few days after adding it to their brand database this is the result:

http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q=ben+sherman+horsham&btnG=Search&meta=

OK so it's not exactly a competitive phrase but several of the competing departments stores have paid to appear in the Sponsored Links. Ironically NONE of the businesses in the Sponsored Links actually have a store in our town so our result in the most relevant for anybody actually wanting to physically buy this product in this town.

It's still early days for us and we need to continue to build the database up but we are getting great feedback from both the business and our users and we have some exciting things in the pipeline.

With regards to promotion: a lot if it is offline. We have posters around the town, on the side of busses, leaflet dispensers and all sorts of printed material. On the web we are second only to the 'official' council site on the Google UK results and no2 or 3 on the web 'results' (often pipped by the Wiki entry)

I would stress I do not consider us a "local search site" but a local information site that includes a search facility whose results feature prominently in the main search engines.

I agree there is little point in a local search engine that is just a search engine. I do think however there is much room for local information sites that include a local directory with a local search that returns accurate results. Indeed the likes of the 'bestof' etc. have proved there is such a market even though their sites ONLY feature those who have paid to be listed. Hopefully more and more 'truly' local sites will appear that will reduce the amounts of money leaving local economies to service these 'local' franchise fees.

Regards

Dotty

 

[LINGsCARS]

Right... I gettit more now.

You are relying on the traffic FROM Google, not competing with Google. You are competing with other Google results.

So people will not really choose to use your search engine in the first instance, except as a destination from Google. Your traffic is coming VIA Google (basically). Is that correct?

 

[DotNetWebs]

Yes that basically what I am saying.

However evidence has shown us that once people are aware of the site, if for example they just want the telephone number of a town centre business; then they will use our own search before Googling etc

Regards

Dotty

 

[LINGsCARS]

Yes that basically what I am saying.

However evidence has shown us that once people are aware of the site, if for example they just want the telephone number of a town centre business; then they will use our own search before Googling etc

Regards

Dotty

How do you know they use you BEFORE Google?

 

[DotNetWebs]

How do you know they use you BEFORE Google?

Basically from anecdotal evidence obtained from talking to people at town centre events etc., as well as feedback from participating businesses who have relayed the comments from their customers etc.

Regards

Dotty

 

[Fisher Consultancy]

Dotty, you hit the nail on the head as to what i would like to achieve! This is why i totally disagree with Ling and other 'just use google' people out there. For example, if im looking for Armani Jeans in Manchester, all the big companies would come up because they have huge advertising budgets and the local shop in Manchester may come up on page 5+. Now if you used a local search then shops stocking that item in your area would come up! As a local directory, using money you generate from other companies you can pt back into adverising your directory on google using those search terms, saving local businesses ALOT of money. They last time i tried to search for Armani jeans i have to travel 30 miles using google, when there is a shop justdown the road that sell them, i had never heard of that shop until i started going into town to research this venture.

I think there is a HUGE market as the middleman between local businesses and national search!

 

[garyscreigh]

you can set up a search request to just check certain sites only (ie ones from your local area that are predetermined)

gary

 

[LINGsCARS]

Dotty, you hit the nail on the head as to what i would like to achieve! This is why i totally disagree with Ling and other 'just use google' people out there. For example, if im looking for Armani Jeans in Manchester, all the big companies would come up because they have huge advertising budgets and the local shop in Manchester may come up on page 5+. Now if you used a local search then shops stocking that item in your area would come up! As a local directory, using money you generate from other companies you can pt back into adverising your directory on google using those search terms, saving local businesses ALOT of money. They last time i tried to search for Armani jeans i have to travel 30 miles using google, when there is a shop justdown the road that sell them, i had never heard of that shop until i started going into town to research this venture.

I think there is a HUGE market as the middleman between local businesses and national search!

hang on... so you are saying that a local directory has to database every product and service from every supplier (or is it just ones who pay) in a local area (say Manchester or Horsham).

Surely it has to be comprehensive in order to be worthwhile, otherwise loads of non-results will be returned?

Then, the local directory has to achieve high first page rankings for all these individual things on Google, because that's where people click in the first instance before developing a habit to use the local directory. I think they will only develop that habit if the listing is fairly comprehensive.

**whistles***

That's a LOT of work!

Who spends all the time figuring out it's working? Questions about people and revenue below...

What volume of users to make it past critical mass?

I would guess a city like Manchaster will need at least 100,000 a month. I mean, there must be 10,000 destinations, and if all just get 10 searches, that's 100,000/mth.

***whistles again***

I am really not sure a critical mass of traffic can be pulled (away) from Google, and your results ON Google compete with every other result.

I am just completely amazed that this can be achieved. Why do I think it is a mountain to climb? Am I so wrong, or missing a key element?

Finally, revenue: is it really worth it? Surely you need to pull enough to employ a few people for the work needed, say £10,000/mth wage/NI/Office/overheads for a small operation? Surely you need a coder, a pretty good server, someone/team selling advertising, someone getting the listing stuff databased etc... You need to be pulling in £20k a month of revenue, minimum. Is that possible?

Every other local advertising business like ITV, local newspapers, yellow pages, complains there is a squeeze on advertising revenue.

 

[JustOneUK]

I actually HALF agree with Ling (which is a first!).. too much like hard work for the returns.

Just open a local forum and let people post what they want, they can post what they are currently selling, what they are not selling and things they even might consider selling one day. You can have as much local info as you want including classifieds/car sales/property... you name it. All you have to do is promote it...and the best way is Google, followed by any local area marketing you choose to do.

When it's up and running monetise it with ads and extras, then open another one

regards
James.

 

[Isabella_Smith]

Well, I'll go with the google for the search, weather it is regarding National or International.

 

[nass]

Google realises there's revenue and demand for local search otherwise it wouldn't be pushing it as much as it does. The question is can someone outgoogle google if the search data is restricted to just local data or sites. My hunch would have to be yes because you can give a lot better service if your search engine service has the local contacts and localisation that Google cannot possibly provide. But the thing that makes it tricky is the revenue aspect - ie can a local search service attract the revenue needed to both pay its workers and keep up some reasonable search technology. That part of the answer might be no.

 

[LocalBusinessChampion]

can a local search service attract the revenue needed to both pay its workers and keep up some reasonable search technology.

Unlikely unless the service is part of a bigger network - which is where companies like 'thebestof' (and I'm one of their franchisees) bring economies of scale to bear that make it possible, i.e. centralise the IT and localise the service. There's no way I could afford to invest £500K on building a local website, which is what my HQ has just done to develop the next version of our website.

 

[nextgenseo]

lol, i google for site wealth. I got this $742,166,748. Can you spend that much of dollers?

 

[YooHee]

maybe if you can

create a site that will be equal or will be greater than google why not...

 

[DotNetWebs]

Unlikely unless the service is part of a bigger network - which is where companies like 'thebestof' (and I'm one of their franchisees) bring economies of scale to bear that make it possible...

And they also suck loads of money OUT of the local economy in massive franchise fees

Regards

Dotty