Google Instant And Negative Keywords - Scam?

[Colin Parker]

I posted on another thread that Google might have ulterior revenue motives with GI - I think I might have found one.

For example; I advertise on 'conservatory' but I have 'self build' as a negative keyword as my client only does supply and fit.

So ... someone starts to type in 'conservatory self build' and guess what ... my conservatory ad shows up once 'conservatory' has been typed. Because I have a compelling ad and the searcher does not know I don't offer self build kits ... I get a click.

This could happen for every negative keyword I have on this account - and every account that every PPC advertiser has.

Add it all up - and its a nice little extra earner for Google.

Colin Parker

 

[redtreeland]

once you click out of the search field or hit enter after conservatory, the ads refresh

 

[Colin Parker]

once you click out of the search field or hit enter after conservatory, the ads refresh

I'm not sure what point you are making ...

Let's make it even more clear ... if I start to search for 'conservatory furniture' as soon as I have typed conservatory I get ads for conservatories which I can click on. If I have the furniture as a negative keyword my ad can show and I could get a click.

I can click straight out of the search field and on to an ad that is not for conservatory furniture - if its my ad clicked and I have furniture as a negative I reckon that is daylight robbery by GI.

In even simpler terms; you use negative keywords so that your ad does not show for irrelevant searches - with GI that goes out of the window. Your ads will show at Google's whim.

Colin Parker

 

[directmarketingadvice]

I posted on another thread that Google might have ulterior revenue motives with GI - I think I might have found one.

For example; I advertise on 'conservatory' but I have 'self build' as a negative keyword as my client only does supply and fit.

So ... someone starts to type in 'conservatory self build' and guess what ... my conservatory ad shows up once 'conservatory' has been typed. Because I have a compelling ad and the searcher does not know I don't offer self build kits ... I get a click.

Yes, there's an issue with this.

I raised this on a private PPC forum last week (that place we talked about a few weeks ago):

You can have a tight ad group (with just phrase and exact matches, plus a bunch of negatives) that clearly defines your "marketplace", but your ad can show to people who had no intention of visiting that marketplace.

The counter-argument is "well, they clicked on your ad, so they must be interested", but my argument is that every keyword is a marketplace and different markeplaces will give you different conversion rates.

(Or, to put it another way. there's "interested" and there's "curious".)

These changes reduce the control we have and we're going to find that our ads sometimes leak over to marketplaces that don't convert well for us.

As a result, phrase match no longer means phrase match, exact no longer means exact and negatives no longer mean negative.

I tend to take the attitude that every form of advertising has some sort of leakage and that that leakage tends to get factored into the prices people are willing to bid.

Steve

 

[mobyme]

As a result, phrase match no longer means phrase match, exact no longer means exact and negatives no longer mean negative.

Steve

That to me is the problem in a nutshell. I wouldn't call it a scam as such, but I can't see them breaking their necks to fix it.

 

[Colin Parker]

Yes, there's an issue with this.

I raised this on a private PPC forum last week (that place we talked about a few weeks ago):

You can have a tight ad group (with just phrase and exact matches, plus a bunch of negatives) that clearly defines your "marketplace", but your ad can show to people who had no intention of visiting that marketplace.

The counter-argument is "well, they clicked on your ad, so they must be interested", but my argument is that every keyword is a marketplace and different markeplaces will give you different conversion rates.

(Or, to put it another way. there's "interested" and there's "curious".)

These changes reduce the control we have and we're going to find that our ads sometimes leak over to marketplaces that don't convert well for us.

As a result, phrase match no longer means phrase match, exact no longer means exact and negatives no longer mean negative.

I tend to take the attitude that every form of advertising has some sort of leakage and that that leakage tends to get factored into the prices people are willing to bid.

Steve

"well, they clicked on your ad, so they must be interested",

This is of course b%ll%cks as we know Steve ... the point is not whether the client is interested in clicking our ad it is whether we are interested in a click from the term they are searching on - after all, its our money!!

Colin Parker

 

[awebapart.com]

I posted on another thread that Google might have ulterior revenue motives with GI - I think I might have found one.

For example; I advertise on 'conservatory' but I have 'self build' as a negative keyword as my client only does supply and fit.

So ... someone starts to type in 'conservatory self build' and guess what ... my conservatory ad shows up once 'conservatory' has been typed. Because I have a compelling ad and the searcher does not know I don't offer self build kits ... I get a click.

That's a good one! Sneaky Google!

I commented on Google Instant when I first heard about it last month, but I didn't envisage that particular ulterior revenue motive. It could be a very nice little earner for Google.

The ulterior revenue motive that I predicted was that it could inflate adwords search stats, to mislead people into thinking there is even more demand than there really is, so let's see if that happens too.

Thinking of it as a game, with this negative keyword issue, Google are introducing new rules and playing the game to their advantage and to the advertiser's disadvantage. But with any game with new rules isn't there a way for you to even things up a bit and play things to your advantage too? For instance, could you not bid on cheaper partial words like con, cons, conservator etc for your ad to appear before people type in conservatory? (assuming you are happy for your ad to appear for just conservatory) - I see some conservatory ads appearing when doing a normal search for conservator so perhaps some people are already doing this.

 

[Dave Thomas]

I'm not sure what point you are making ...

Let's make it even more clear ... if I start to search for 'conservatory furniture' as soon as I have typed conservatory I get ads for conservatories which I can click on. If I have the furniture as a negative keyword my ad can show and I could get a click.

I can click straight out of the search field and on to an ad that is not for conservatory furniture - if its my ad clicked and I have furniture as a negative I reckon that is daylight robbery by GI.

Agreed this is an issue but maybe we need to cumulatively set the analytical reports straight on this and see if this is actually costing much more...I have run some questionaires and in house reports on this and also taken a deep look into the analytics of certain client accounts since inception. The trend has NOT changed and people who have a dedicated search in mind will continue with their input into the search query bar until they have either the suggestion that relates to their subject or the displayed results after their completed search. The idea is to suggest at each letter typed but if im looking for consevatory furniture then why click on conservatories? I want furniture...I think we as a nation (even the numpties amongst us) are becoming more savvie and clicking what we want and not what is suggested! But I do agree that there will still be a modicum of guff that willl click....lets wait and see hard evidence ;-)

 

[directmarketingadvice]

For instance, could you not bid on cheaper partial words like con, cons, conservator etc for your ad to appear before people type in conservatory? (assuming you are happy for your ad to appear for just conservatory)

I very much doubt it. (Though this is theorising, not something I've tested.)

Google will show the ads they expect to make them the most money. All things being equal, conservatory ad bidding cheaply on "cons" is always going to be less appealing for google than a conservatory ad bidding on the more expensive "conservatory".

Steve

 

[Dave Thomas]

That's a good one! Sneaky Google!


The ulterior revenue motive that I predicted was that it could inflate adwords search stats, to mislead people into thinking there is even more demand than there really is, so let's see if that happens too.

they are not recording every imp as the searches start...see here and as above i personally dont think that many looking for terms like conservatory furniture will click on suggested links

conserva = no ads
conservat = conservative party res
conservato = buy online conservatories ? why click i have one???
conservator+y = buy online conservatories ? why click i still have one??
conservatory+ [space] = Top suggestions Furniture!! Bingo......

 

[awebapart.com]

could you not bid on cheaper partial words like con, cons, conservator etc for your ad to appear before people type in conservatory? (assuming you are happy for your ad to appear for just conservatory) - I see some conservatory ads appearing when doing a normal search for conservator so perhaps some people are already doing this.

Even in normal search, I'm seeing some conservatory ads appearing for the following searches: conser, conserv, conservat, conservato, conservator

So this might suggest that some people are already trying to play the "new game rules" of Google Instant to their advantage.

 

[directmarketingadvice]

Even in normal search, I'm seeing some conservatory ads appearing for the following searches: conser, conserv, conservat, conservato, conservator

So this might suggest that some people are already trying to play the "new game rules" of Google Instant to their advantage.

Google predicts what someone is going to type in and shows ads for that.

I can get my clients ads to come up for partial searches (3-5 letters of the first word), but I know we're not bidding on those terms.

Steve

 

[Dave Thomas]

Even in normal search, I'm seeing some conservatory ads appearing for the following searches: conser, conserv, conservat, conservato, conservator

So this might suggest that some people are already trying to play the "new game rules" of Google Instant to their advantage.

But to what advantage....If he sells Conservatory Furniture??? paying for very generic clicks on Conservatories listings ...surely leave this to the numpties to pay for?

 

[awebapart.com]

Google predicts what someone is going to type in and shows ads for that.

I can get my clients ads to come up for partial searches (3-5 letters of the first word), but I know we're not bidding on those terms.

Isn't that just broad match kicking in?

I'm just thinking that with Google Instant, there might be some advertisers who normally use exact match, who are now considering to proactively extend their exact match terms to include other exact match terms which just include the partial variants of words purely for the purpose of targeting Google Instant, rather than going the whole hog of broad match.

 

[awebapart.com]

But to what advantage....If he sells Conservatory Furniture??? paying for very generic clicks on Conservatories listings ...surely leave this to the numpties to pay for?

The OP is advertising for conservatories, targeting people who want conservatories (but not self-build conservatories), not conservatory furniture.

The OP is talking about the issue of negative keywords with Google Instant. The issue of more specific searches (conservatory furniture rather than conservatory), and the impact of Google Instant on this, is another issue.

 

[redtreeland]

But to what advantage....If he sells Conservatory Furniture??? paying for very generic clicks on Conservatories listings ...surely leave this to the numpties to pay for?

exactly

 

[directmarketingadvice]

Isn't that just broad match kicking in?

No, because I've tested that, too. (By checking on keywords where only phrase and exact keywords are being covered.)

I'm just thinking that with Google Instant, there might be some advertisers who normally use exact match, who are now considering to proactively extend their exact match terms to include other exact match terms which just include the partial variants of words purely for the purpose of targeting Google Instant, rather than going the whole hog of broad match.

Possibly. I've not tested it.

Steve

 

[Dave Thomas]

The OP is advertising for conservatories, targeting people who want conservatories (but not self-build conservatories), not conservatory furniture.

The OP is talking about the issue of negative keywords with Google Instant. The issue of more specific searches (conservatory furniture rather than conservatory), and the impact of Google Instant on this, is another issue.

apologies mis read lol....but either way you turn this around if someone is looking for a self build one they would type

"Self build conservatory"

and if they are just looking for conservatories they how does the advertiser know wether they want self build or not? Surely this is the same as the results shown before very generic....also sort the ad copy to screen unwanted traffic as best possible....i dont think that any of us will change their way at this point we have to put up for the time being!!

apologies for the misunderstand ;-)

 

[Dave Thomas]

was refering to oneportfolio's second post re furniture lol

 

[Colin Parker]

But to what advantage....If he sells Conservatory Furniture??? paying for very generic clicks on Conservatories listings ...surely leave this to the numpties to pay for?

Numpties are people who make assumptions based on not knowing the facts ...

If I bid on 'conservatories' but have 1,000+ negative keywords I can use the generic to get clicks I would miss out on and find relevant keyword search phrases I havn't previously added to my campaign.

And you are a 'Director of Paid Search' ...

So who is the numpty now?

Colin Parker

 

[Colin Parker]

was refering to oneportfolio's second post re furniture lol

My clients don't sell furniture ...

So if a searcher is typing 'conservatory furniture' my ad will show after conservatory is typed even if I have it as a negative keyword.

Another poster made the 'point' that anyone searching for conservatory furniture must already have a conservatory - so they wouldn't click on a conservatory ad. Massive assumption! Plenty of conservatory companies sell cane furniture (just that mine don't) so a searcher might well decide to click an ad ...

The main point I am making is that GI can bypass negative keywords and even if that results in 0.1% of searchers clicking on an ad that otherwise would not have neen shown - that is BIG bucks for Google on a global scale.

Colin Parker

 

[Dave Thomas]

Numpties are people who make assumptions based on not knowing the facts ...

If I bid on 'conservatories' but have 1,000+ negative keywords I can use the generic to get clicks I would miss out on and find relevant keyword search phrases I havn't previously added to my campaign.

And you are a 'Director of Paid Search' ...

So who is the numpty now?

Colin Parker

Personal!! Think you ahve taken out of context and if offence taken apologies but this is why i mentioned the analytics side of things and tracking to see if this will or wont effect.....Also the serach results as soon as you press space signifing that you may be adding more to the query thats all! sheesh!!

 

[awebapart.com]

Isn't that just broad match kicking in?

No, because I've tested that, too. (By checking on keywords where only phrase and exact keywords are being covered.)

That's interesting, and I'm quite surprised by this. I think if I was paying for an exact match adword, say architect, I would be quite annoyed if the ad was being displayed for anything except that exact match without my explicit permission, including partial match like archi, since the searcher could still continue typing in something different like archiving or architecture in Barcelona.

If this is the case, even with exact match, then this outlines another one of those ulterior revenue motives for Google Instant, i.e. to more fully exploit this feature and make more money in that area.

On the other hand there are benefits too, and perhaps I would be OK with google displaying architect ads for archi if I explicitly targeted it in adwords, exact match archi to exploit Google Instant.

But I guess this still isnt as big an issue as the negative keyword issue.

 

[Dave Thomas]

I was refering to numpties who dont have the advantage of negs in their campaigns! And who braod match and set and forget!

 

[directmarketingadvice]

I would be quite annoyed if the ad was being displayed for anything except that exact match without my explicit permission

That's the whole point of the thread.

As I said, exacts are no longer exacts and negatives are no longer negatives.

Steve

 

[awebapart.com]

if they are just looking for conservatories they how does the advertiser know wether they want self build or not? Surely this is the same as the results shown before very generic

It is a similar situation, but it is not exactly the same.

Before Instant, google's interface basically said "w'ell give you results/ads whatever you search for, but you will get more relevant results/ads the more specific your search is".

With Instant, google's interface is saying "specific searches aren't that important anymore, and we'll try to give you results/ads for whatever you type, searches/ads which might divert you away from actually finishing typing your planned specific search".

Without Instant, a searcher might have typed the more specific search term, like conservatory self build (self build is a better example than furniture since it is more niche and doesn't appear in the auto-complete list). With Instant, the searcher is encouraged to stop typing their specific query earlier.

Back in 2007 I originally said:

People are getting smarter when it comes to search engine usage. The more the public use search engines the more they realise that it is better to be more specific about their search in order to get the results they want.

that as people got more familiar with search engines, that more specific searches would be made, going towards the long tail.

But unfortunately Google Instant, kind of encourages a reversal to this trend.

 

[awebapart.com]

That's the whole point of the thread.

As I said, exacts are no longer exacts and negatives are no longer negatives.

But did google show ads for partial exact matches and partial phrase matches before Google Instant arrived?

If they did, then exact were not exacts in the first place, and phrase matches were not phrase matches in the first place, and Google Instant's introduction was merely a way of capitalising on or exploiting this.

Partial matches coming up (e.g. conserv for conservatory) isn't really the issue of this thread, and there should be a workaround for this if it not required, using partial negatives. The main issue, the OP's issue, of this thread is the negative word issue, and Google Instant's encouragement of less specific searches, which I do not think there is a workaround or solution to.

 

[directmarketingadvice]

But did google show ads for partial exact matches and partial phrase matches before Google Instant arrived?

How do you mean?

When google didn't show ads until someone hit "enter", your exact matches were triggered if they typed in the exact phrase. Your phrase matches were triggered if they typed in the phrase (and didn't use any of your negative keywords).

Google instant has a built-in guessing game that triggers ads. That wasn't there before.

Steve

 

[awebapart.com]

How do you mean?

If I only set up one exact match adword, like architect, before Instant, if someone searched for archi and pressed enter, would the ad appear?

If I run this normal search now without Instant enabled for archi, an ad for an architect does appear. Likewise if I run a normal search (no Instant, just press enter) for conserv, conservatory ads appear.

Which makes me think this might be separate from Instant, essentially all Instant is doing is mimicking what normal search does if you press enter after you type each character.

 

[directmarketingadvice]

If I only set up one exact match adword, like architect, before Instant, if someone searched for archi and pressed enter, would the ad appear?

No.

If I run this normal search now without Instant enabled for archi, an ad for an architect does appear.

OK. I don't see one, but that doesn't mean you aren't.

Likewise if I run a normal search (no Instant, just press enter) for conserv, conservatory ads appear.

OK.

Which makes me think this might be separate from Instant, essentially all Instant is doing is mimicking what normal search does if you press enter after you type each character.

I don't think so.

For all you know, these could be broad matches. Alternatively, it could be related to you recently searching on conservatory and architect and Google is just showing you ads related to prior searches.

(i.e. it's part of personalised search.)

Steve

 

[awebapart.com]

The normal searches (pressing enter) were run on a browser not logged in to google, with no web history, no cookies, all cache cleared, so there was no personalisation.

The Google Instant testing was done with a logged in account but with web history disabled, so theoretically no personalisation should be kicking in there (although I can't say for sure).

I am seeing differences between normal seaches and what appears on keypresses in instant...

Normal search: archi brings up one architect ad, conserv brings up many conservatory ads

Instant search: archi brings up many architect ads, conserv brings up no conservatory ads

If I'm in instant search, and then press enter the ads from the equivalent normal search appear.

With Instant it is difficult to rule out any personalisation at the moment and test it not logged in to Google, since I don't think Instant search can be used in the UK yet without being logged in to Google.

This does however suggest that google is doing something different to the equivalent normal search if you press enter after each keypress, certainly different to www.keyboardr.com.

 

[directmarketingadvice]

Normal search: archi brings up one architect ad, conserv brings up many conservatory ads

Instant search: archi brings up many architect ads, conserv brings up no conservatory ads

The instant search results are easy enough to explain: just look at the top recommendations you get if you pause at those points.

For the normal search, as I said, it could easily be broad matching, particularly if you did a lot of searches earlier on the stuff Colin was talking about.

Steve

 

[awebapart.com]

I do have one SEO observation (which I hinted on earlier) from this new Google Instant change...

I think the owners of webs.com will be quite happy with the change!

They appear top of organic, on pages with very little in the way of accompanying ads, once you've typed in either web or webs. And since their result title and description is offering a free website and hosting, this could get noticed and be attractive to some of those people searching for web design, website design, web hosting, web marketing etc.

 

[awebapart.com]

The instant search results are easy enough to explain: just look at the top recommendations you get if you pause at those points.

Yes, and the proof of this is in the next page links at the bottom below the results.

So everyone, how can you find out for definite what equivalent normal search is used as you type in using Instant Search...

In Instant Search, type in arch or conserv, scroll down to the bottom of the results, move the mouse over the "Next" (next page) link, and in the status bar you can see what actual normal search term was used in the q= query parameter in the url for the next page. In the case of archi, it was architects, in the case of conserv it was conservative. And this also corresponds to the item in the top of the auto-complete list box beneath the search text box, and the greyed out autocompletion in the search text box.

From what I can see, it also appears that Google Instant is turning singular into plural for quite a few searches, e.g. dog > dogs, web > webs (?), solicitor > solicitors, 3d > 3ds (?) etc

 

[directmarketingadvice]

Good spot. I would have never thought of scrolling down and mousing over the link.

Steve

 

[daveashe]

Hmm..

I've not seen any impact on long-tail keywords on one of my sites that gets a few thousand hits per day.

I really think most people despise this update and turn it off straight away.

For one thing, it centers the results page which I totally hate, its probably the most annoying search interface i've ever used.

Google Instant Fail

http://www.searchenginejournal.com/google-instant-adwords-trouble/24043/

 

[EntrepreneurWannabe]

Yeah it's definitely a scam.