Goods arrived damaged

[Luolou]

I'm having a really frustrating time dealing with niggling issues this week ( see my previous post if you are really bored...) and this is today's conundrum....

This morning we took delivery of a glass aquarium, unfortunately when it was unwrapped (and personally I consider the packaging was inadequate) the tank was completely shattered at one end, with some of the shards inside the tank. The delivery driver had left by the time we discovered this - they won't hang around whilst someone unwraps and examines everything - so I immediately took photos and set them to our supplier, and requested a refund, as we had paid for it on ordering. ( a replacement would be too late and based on current experience we would not want to use this company again anyway )
Their response to my request was that they had loaded it onto the vehicle in perfect condition so responsibility passed to the carrier and they would send my photos to them. I pointed out that my contract is with them, not the carrier, but they said they are waiting to see what the carrier says.
When I checked how we paid them I discovered we used our barclaycard, so maybe we have some recourse from that? However I still feel that they should offer a us a straight refund as the good we're not if for purpose.
Am I right or am I wrong? Advice appreciated as always.....

 

[Christine Hough]

I think ( and it is only think) your contract is with the supplier. The problem you may have is if the delivery you signed for included a clause saying it was in good condition.

If in doubt it is always worth writing 'not yet unpacked and inspected' when signing for thing... especially home moves as you cannot check all the boxes in one day.

I expect you will win on this but it may be a drag.

You are covered also by dsr if you bought online.

 

[roydmoorian]

When using parcel carriers the senders are made aware that glass is sent at their own risk.

It is highly unlikely that the carrier will entertain a claim unless the carriage of glass was specified and approved before dispatch - ask the seller to check the T's & C's of his carrier.

Most senders of glass allow for a % of breakages and price their product accordingly.

IMHO glass should be sent out in rigid wooden packaging with internal buffering material, or on a dedicated vehicle. But that makes the carriage cost more than the glass goods

 

[Socio South West]

The carriers will insist on the sender dealing with any claim - the contract is with the sender to do the delivery after all. Your route is to pursue the Sender.

However, if (as is usually the case) there is a 'Received in Good Condition' box you (or at least the Sender in this case) will struggle to get a claim through: That said, providing you are on the case in minutes - not hours - and notify the sender who notifies the carrier, and you have pictures of the packaging in good condition, then there is a small chance that some of the companies will accept liability.

Some (eg the Orange and black monster) will argue that the signature for the package in good condition is the be all and end all..... We don't know them as Toss 'N' Tumble for nothing....

 

[deniser]

Is it a business purchase or a personal purchase?

 

[Luolou]

Thanks for your replies. It is a business purchase Denise. As we paid by Barclaycard I have contacted barclaycard and apparently I can claim the money back through their chargeback system but only after trying to deal with it myself first, which is fair enough. I should probably give the company a couple of days to respond, but if i get no joy I am going to inform them I am going to claim through the credit card.

And I agree Roy, the packaging was appalling considering the product, despite the supplier said they were happy with it.

Love th Toss'n'tumble analogy Socio. We never put 'fragile or handle with care' tape on our parcels because it appears it is like a red rag to a bull ( or carrier ) and they do exactly the opposite!

 

[Luolou]

We are now pursuing the claim through barclaycard as the supplier is hiding behind the courier and saying he wont do anything as once the goods leave his premises the courier is responsible.
Having failed to resolve the problem direct, Barclaycard ( somewhere abroad) talked me through the system and said they would send the claim form. Seven days later it has arrived, but one of the two questions asks whether the goods have been returned. If I state " no" then the form says i may not be able to further the claim. Yet at no point during my conversation was I told that sending the goods back was crucial to the claim.
I phoned again today and clearly the lady ( again abroad) in "customer support" had no idea, she kept repeating the same statements, none of which were relevant to my specific question about the safety and expense of sending he goods back. As i told her, the large glass tank we paid for arrived completely shattered at one end. Frankly it is probably hazardous to send it back. If we do have to, we will have to re-package it more safely than how it was delivered just to protect the collection/ delivery people.
So who is liable for the organisation and cost of this return, which may be the basis of our claim ? We did nothing wrong apart from not examining the goods on delivery, which was impossible due to lack of available staff ( the supplier we purchased from were fully aware I would have to bring someone in simply to take delivery, as I was on my own on the delivery date)
I am going round in ever decreasing circles trying to get my head round this one....

 

[roydmoorian]

We are now pursuing the claim through barclaycard as the supplier is hiding behind the courier and saying he wont do anything as once the goods leave his premises the courier is responsible.
Having failed to resolve the problem direct, Barclaycard ( somewhere abroad) talked me through the system and said they would send the claim form. Seven days later it has arrived, but one of the two questions asks whether the goods have been returned. If I state " no" then the form says i may not be able to further the claim. Yet at no point during my conversation was I told that sending the goods back was crucial to the claim.
I phoned again today and clearly the lady ( again abroad) in "customer support" had no idea, she kept repeating the same statements, none of which were relevant to my specific question about the safety and expense of sending he goods back. As i told her, the large glass tank we paid for arrived completely shattered at one end. Frankly it is probably hazardous to send it back. If we do have to, we will have to re-package it more safely than how it was delivered just to protect the collection/ delivery people.
So who is liable for the organisation and cost of this return, which may be the basis of our claim ? We did nothing wrong apart from not examining the goods on delivery, which was impossible due to lack of available staff ( the supplier we purchased from were fully aware I would have to bring someone in simply to take delivery, as I was on my own on the delivery date)
I am going round in ever decreasing circles trying to get my head round this one....

If the supplier is refusing to take any responsibility then I would suggest telling them that you will be raising a Money Claim Online.

He dispatched the goods and it is his responsibility to choose an overnight carrier whose insurance covers glass (there aren't any) and to pack the goods properly.

In my experience people who send glass products by overnight carrier allow for between 3% and 12% breakages and factor that into their selling prices.

When people bring packages to our office for us to put through a parcel network I ask them to drop the parcel on the floor from waist height. This demonstrates to me that they believe that the packaging is probably adequate.

 

[Peonylady]

We are now pursuing the claim through barclaycard as the supplier is hiding behind the courier and saying he wont do anything as once the goods leave his premises the courier is responsible.
Having failed to resolve the problem direct, Barclaycard ( somewhere abroad) talked me through the system and said they would send the claim form. Seven days later it has arrived, but one of the two questions asks whether the goods have been returned. If I state " no" then the form says i may not be able to further the claim. Yet at no point during my conversation was I told that sending the goods back was crucial to the claim.
I phoned again today and clearly the lady ( again abroad) in "customer support" had no idea, she kept repeating the same statements, none of which were relevant to my specific question about the safety and expense of sending he goods back. As i told her, the large glass tank we paid for arrived completely shattered at one end. Frankly it is probably hazardous to send it back. If we do have to, we will have to re-package it more safely than how it was delivered just to protect the collection/ delivery people.
So who is liable for the organisation and cost of this return, which may be the basis of our claim ? We did nothing wrong apart from not examining the goods on delivery, which was impossible due to lack of available staff ( the supplier we purchased from were fully aware I would have to bring someone in simply to take delivery, as I was on my own on the delivery date)
I am going round in ever decreasing circles trying to get my head round this one....

Ok luckily for you I used to work for a disputes department and my job was to claim chargebacks for customers, so here's what you need to do.

Firstly you don't always have to send the goods back you just have to tell the merchant that they are available for them to collect. If it's a VISA then you do have to send it back, tell barclaycard and they 'should' reimburse you for this so that you are put 'back into the possition you were in before the transaction'. Now i can't remeber if that's part of the chargeback rules or if it's just something our dept did for customer service but it don't hurt to try.
For a Mastercard you need to just tell the merchant they can collect the goods and do this in writting so send them an email and cc it to yourself then print the cc copy. The chargeback claim form barclaycard have sent you is just for them to gather basic info on your dispute and should have a disclaimer where you give them permission to act on your behalf (data protection rules and all that).

Your contract is definately with them and not the courior they employed and so regardless of if the goods where damaged before or during transit it is the merchants responsibility to ensure they arrive in tact and with the correct packaging. If it turns out to be the couriors fault then the merchant has to take that up with them and you get your refund from the merchant.

fill in the disputes form as best you can and send copies of all documents you have and the email to the merchant stating goods are ready for them to collect. If barclaycard are any good at there job they will send that off to the merchants bank and claim a chargeback for you.

When they do this the money should appear back on your card within 24 hours but don't spend it just yet. the merchant has the right to reply and challenge the chargeback and they have between 30 and 45 days to do so, depending on if it's VISA or Mastercard. the disputes team should explaine this to you.

If the merchant refuses to collect the goods and says you have to pay to send them back tell barclaycard and they will advise you further.

I hope this helps and if you need anything else drop me a line and I'll do my best

 

[Bill1954]

We now send all glass products on a pallet as we once lost a shower enclosure through it being broken on a carrier. We had to refund the customer under DSR's but when we claimed on the carriers insurance we were told that they didn't carry glass. Lesson learned. This was of course B2C
On another occasion we bought in a shower tray on B2B. On examination we found it to be cracked. We rang them and they said that in their T+C's we had to examine the item while the delivery vehicle was still there and that it should have waited 15 minutes for us to do so. We contacted trading standards who said that, although they considered the T+C's dubious, because the local trading standards office has approved them, we had no claim. We claimed the money back through Visa, it was returned but taken back again the following week as the sender objected to the decision and won his case.It really is a minefield

 

[Peonylady]

We now send all glass products on a pallet as we once lost a shower enclosure through it being broken on a carrier. We had to refund the customer under DSR's but when we claimed on the carriers insurance we were told that they didn't carry glass. Lesson learned. This was of course B2C
On another occasion we bought in a shower tray on B2B. On examination we found it to be cracked. We rang them and they said that in their T+C's we had to examine the item while the delivery vehicle was still there and that it should have waited 15 minutes for us to do so. We contacted trading standards who said that, although they considered the T+C's dubious, because the local trading standards office has approved them, we had no claim. We claimed the money back through Visa, it was returned but taken back again the following week as the sender objected to the decision and won his case.It really is a minefield

It is a mine field, and the regulations aren't always clear to the card issuer disputes team but it's a useful tool for B2B transactions because they aren't covered by the DSR.

There are guides for merchants from mastercard and visa which should advise you on how avoid and deal with chargebacks I would advise you google them and take some time to have a read through.

Having worked on behalf of customers and now finding myself looking to be on the other side as a merchant i can tell you that i will be spending a long time writting my t&c's ensuring they are clear.

 

[Talay]

From a legal viewpoint, your contract was and is solely with the supplier. You have no contract with the delivery company.

If it got around to who sues whom, then you would sue the supplier who would in turn sue the delivery company.

If they try to wriggle out of it under the fact that you signed for delivery, then you need to adjust your comments as to what you were signing for and highlight the courier's refusal to wait until you unwrapped the package, thus rendering a full internal inspection impossible.

 

[Luolou]

Thanks for all your replies.

Having checked my Barclaycard statement they have already refunded the money - I was credited the day after I raised the claim. However that doesn't automatically mean it wont be challenged. In my claim paperwork I stated I hadn't sent the tank back as it seemed irresponsible to deliberately send broken glass! If the retailer insists on its return I shall do as you suggest and tell them that the tank is available for them to collect (unless as Peony says, I have to do so in which case I will speak to Visa about that if the question is raised). I assume that once they have my paperwork they will contact me if they have any queries, rather than making the decision based on that information alone.

Great idea about dropping something from waist height to prove packaging is secure Royd! Must tell the lads that one..

What a couple of weeks I'm having! 3 seperate parking ticket challenges on the go ( all genuine reasons for disputing - one was for my chap sleeping at a service station for over the two hour limit as he was cream crackered and felt it was unsafe to carry on driving!) Oh well.....

 

[oceanboy]

Hi all,

As a online retailer we do get some damages and customer complaints about it.

We don't sell fragile glass products but because of some accidents packages drop in transit and damage easily without damaging the outer packing.

In our shipping & return policy, we have clearly stated that any damage must be reported to us in writing within 48 hours, if any later we can not accept any liability. Also if we take the order over the phone we advise customer to check the delivery as soon as possible after receiving it. Most people check it but some doesn't and thats where we have the problem. We will be adding additional label on the packages for this matter and hopefully these problems will be lot lot less.

I know customers coming back after 60 days and reporting damages or missing parts / items from their order

Anyway, as we had problems and people reported to us to the trading standards, we had to spend sometime on DSR and liabilities.

Basically supplier / seller is responsible for delivery in good condition. Even customer signs the POD with note UNCHECKED they can still claim the damage / loss from supplier according to DSR. Supplier must claim the loss from their contracted courier.

 

[Luolou]

I will let you know the outcome....we should in theory be fine, but its often down to the finer details......

 

[arcon5]

I think its important to clarify a few points..

Are you a consumer?
Was it over £100?
Are you initiating a chargeback or a section 75 claim?

If chargeback then it isn't guaranteed. Whereas s75 claim (if order qualifies) makes the CC company equally liable for performance of the contract so you should be reimbursed by the credit card company if they cannot recover the money. And if your a consumer your only obligation is to make it reasonably available for collection at their cost.

 

[arcon5]

Hi all,

As a online retailer we do get some damages and customer complaints about it.

We don't sell fragile glass products but because of some accidents packages drop in transit and damage easily without damaging the outer packing.

In our shipping & return policy, we have clearly stated that any damage must be reported to us in writing within 48 hours, if any later we can not accept any liability. Also if we take the order over the phone we advise customer to check the delivery as soon as possible after receiving it. Most people check it but some doesn't and thats where we have the problem. We will be adding additional label on the packages for this matter and hopefully these problems will be lot lot less.

I know customers coming back after 60 days and reporting damages or missing parts / items from their order

Anyway, as we had problems and people reported to us to the trading standards, we had to spend sometime on DSR and liabilities.

Basically supplier / seller is responsible for delivery in good condition. Even customer signs the POD with note UNCHECKED they can still claim the damage / loss from supplier according to DSR. Supplier must claim the loss from their contracted courier.

That's because your terms are most likely unlawful and unenforceable. The Sales of Goods Act allows 'reasonable' time to inspect goods conform to contract before rejecting them if they don't. Although reasonable is ambiguous, a reasonable person would certainly deem it to mean more than 2 days - the law is in fact set to change and this term will be replaced by a fixed period of 28 days.

Consumer Protection (Distance selling) regulations (aka DSRs) are nothing to do with missing goods. They simply provide an unconditional right to cancel the contract (for qualifying goods) by notifying you within 7 working days starting the day after receiving the goods. Also set to change to 14 days.

If missing parts are reported missing after 2 months you can certainly argue they are deemed to have accepted the goods. Although flakey as you as the retailer are responsible for proving conformity within the first 6 months

 

[Peonylady]

Arcon yes a section 75 claim is possible but not guaranteed. If there is a chargeback then this will always be keyed first as it is a simpler and quicker result for the customer. Section 75 claims can go on and on as they are far more in depth investigations and merchant t&c's play a stronger role.

Chargeback is usually the best course in situations like this

 

[Talay]

..3 seperate parking ticket challenges on the go ( all genuine reasons for disputing - one was for my chap sleeping at a service station for over the two hour limit as he was cream crackered and felt it was unsafe to carry on driving!) Oh well.....

I believe the legal challenge to tickets issued when overstaying free parking is that the very nature of it being free means the owner of the land cannot pursue you as they cannot prove an economic loss.

I know we paid one once, under duress of the £90 now or £45 within 30 days lark but a quick Google will bring up loads of "evidence" which very strongly supports the practice that issuers never take these cases to court, knowing they don't have a leg to stand on.

The relevant internet authority is probably http://www.pepipoo.com/

 

[finejewellerys]

I think it just depend on the package condition.,if the package arrived your house with bad condition.it must be the responsible for the shipping company mostly. of course the seller is also responsible to the bad packing.just contact the seller to resolve it. in any way, the seller would do a exchange for you or do the refund to you.but maybe you will pay the item returning fees.

 

[arcon5]

Arcon yes a section 75 claim is possible but not guaranteed. If there is a chargeback then this will always be keyed first as it is a simpler and quicker result for the customer. Section 75 claims can go on and on as they are far more in depth investigations and merchant t&c's play a stronger role.

Chargeback is usually the best course in situations like this

Chargebacks are not guaranteed. Section 75 is a legal requirement and is certainly much more likely to see op receive the money back.

 

[arcon5]

I think it just depend on the package condition.,if the package arrived your house with bad condition.it must be the responsible for the shipping company mostly. of course the seller is also responsible to the bad packing.just contact the seller to resolve it. in any way, the seller would do a exchange for you or do the refund to you.but maybe you will pay the item returning fees.

Whether the shipping company is responsible or not is completely irrelevant to op. The shipping company are their sub contractors and that's it.

There is certainly no legal obligation for op to pay for the return. In fact there's no obligation for op to even restore the goods to the seller.

 

[Peonylady]

Chargebacks are not guaranteed. Section 75 is a legal requirement and is certainly much more likely to see op receive the money back.

I din't say chargebacks were garanteed I said 'If there is a chargeback'.

I used to work in a chargeback department and all day I investigated and processed chargebacks and section 75 claims.

 

[Peonylady]

Chargebacks are not guaranteed. Section 75 is a legal requirement and is certainly much more likely to see op receive the money back.

I didn't say chargebacks were garanteed I said 'If there is a chargeback'.

I used to work in a chargeback department and all day I investigated and processed chargebacks and section 75 claims.

 

[Peonylady]

ooops someething went wrong there, posted twice

 

[Luolou]

All I can say is that my Barclaycard account has been re-credited for the full amount and I have since supplied evidence of the damage to the goods. I will give an update once I hear b
Acl from them.

 

[arcon5]

Do note though the refund will be temporary subject to the chargeback process, it will state this in the letter they send you

 

[Luolou]

I have today had confirmation from Barclaycard that my chargeback has been accepted and the £461 has been fully refunded. I have not been asked to return the broken aquarium, so we can now dispose of it (safely!)

I have been very impressed with the Barclaycard service, I felt they were completely on my side. And I appreciate all your responses, they really help.

Luolou

 

[Christine Hough]

Good result and thanks for letting us know

 

[arcon5]

It's only just been over a week, this isn't enough time for the merchant to defend it so I don't think it means its all over. Just that the bank have decided your request is reasonable and submitted the chargeback. Temporary refunds are often issued

 

[bookluver321]

When using parcel carriers the senders are made aware that glass is sent at their own risk.

It is highly unlikely that the carrier will entertain a claim unless the carriage of glass was specified and approved before dispatch - ask the seller to check the T's & C's of his carrier.

Most senders of glass allow for a % of breakages and price their product accordingly.

IMHO glass should be sent out in rigid wooden packaging with internal buffering material, or on a dedicated vehicle. But that makes the carriage cost more than the glass goods

I agree... sender is responsible for packing their product correctly!

 

[Luolou]

I would have agreed with you Arcon, however my thoughts were the same so I phoned them to double check as the letter was a bit ambiguous.They confirmed there would be no further comeback. And if its a pretty clear case ( which hopefully with the evidence of the damage it was) then surely it shouldn't take long to sort out.

 

[Root 66 Woodshop]

I would have agreed with you Arcon, however my thoughts were the same so I phoned them to double check as the letter was a bit ambiguous.They confirmed there would be no further comeback. And if its a pretty clear case ( which hopefully with the evidence of the damage it was) then surely it shouldn't take long to sort out.

I like what you did there.



Splendid description of an aquarium.

 

[Peonylady]

i still wouldn't go spending the money yet, you said your card was a VISA and in the regulations for VISA you must return the goods. if the merchant is aware of this or their bank pick up on it then they will respond that the chargeback is invalid (which it technically is). That's not your fault though, barclaycard should have told you that and if they claimed a chargeback regardless and it comes back invalid then it's down to barclaycard to put it right and put you back in the financial possition you were in before you bought the tank.

 

[threenine]

You have statutory rights under distance selling regulations too! You have 7 days to return the item if it faulty, broken or just didn't want it either way.

You can use your Barclay card angle if they don't comply

 

[AlexandraS]

No, you have 7 days to inform the supplier that you intend to return the items, not 7 days to return!

 

[arcon5]

Sorry to be pedantic but 7 working days. Changing to 14 calendar days this year

 

[Luolou]

I like what you did there.



Splendid description of an aquarium.

Very clever haunted.... Took me a while though!