Going to work for a competitor

[carolme]

We are a service company and in our company contract we get everyone to sign that they can't work for one of our competitors for 6 months after being employed by us. There is a previous employee who just left and was very secretive about his new job- I just found out that the reason for this is because he took a job with a local competitor- he will be doing the exact same job as he was doing for us. I wasn't going to push things but I have had 3 of our contract customers who have cancelled contracts and I have evidence that suggests that they have followed him to this other company. I also know that he had been making loads of mistakes before he left and was blaming the company for all of them- now I know he was trying to steal customers...

I know we can take him to court but what kind of outcome can be expected and what is the best way to go about things? I can get all of my current staff to testify against him because most of them are very angry with him for putting their jobs at risk.

Thanks

 

[Big Pete]

We are a service company and in our company contract we get everyone to sign that they can't work for one of our competitors for 6 months after being employed by us. There is a previous employee who just left and was very secretive about his new job- I just found out that the reason for this is because he took a job with a local competitor- he will be doing the exact same job as he was doing for us. I wasn't going to push things but I have had 3 of our contract customers who have cancelled contracts and I have evidence that suggests that they have followed him to this other company. I also know that he had been making loads of mistakes before he left and was blaming the company for all of them- now I know he was trying to steal customers...

I know we can take him to court but what kind of outcome can be expected and what is the best way to go about things? I can get all of my current staff to testify against him because most of them are very angry with him for putting their jobs at risk.

Thanks

The fun of employing people like i have said for years they do not care a jot about you or the Company the moment a better job comes along they are gone.

I don`t think you can do a lot being honest as he has a right to earn a living , who says who is the competition ? . Will be an expensive time consuming thing best bet is to think out the box and handle him or her accordingly
many suggestions spring to mind but i best not tell on here .. as the goody goodies will cry

 

[Deleted member 27344]

And how did you come across this information?
They could counter-sue under the guise of you spying on them or him.

 

[carolme]

Yeah- cause I have nothing better to do with my time then to spy on ex employees :s

Our current employees have told us things and then you just have to connect the dots- it isn't hard to figure things out in the end! To be honest I have always known he is a rat and I am happy he left- the company is better off without him and I am confident that we will get the customers back because time will tell that the problem was the employee not the company! Every time we had a big project scheduled he would call in sick- he rarely followed company procedures and was so unreliable!

The only reason I posted this is because everyone I talk to keeps telling us to take him to court- so I just thought I would like to know some thoughts and if it is worth it!

I have to say that I am less than impressed with things in this country- the employees have all of the rights and all of the protection but when it comes to them doing something wrong no one seems to care. Aren't we kind of forgetting something here? Who are we really helping?? The small businesses are providing jobs for people and helping the economy- wouldn't it make more sense and be more helpful to the single employee to protect the businesses instead of protecting the single employee? Because of the laws in this country 1 single person can cause a company to go under and several people loose there jobs. I understand the whole idea of being fair to employees but if you look at the bigger picture it would make a whole lot more sense to protect the business and let the employees look after themselves- the more protection there is for businesses the more businesses will open and the more jobs will be supplied- it is a win for everyone!!

 

[Maxwell83]

His employment contract and non-compete clause may be perfectly valid and enforceable - it is possible and they have been used and enforced in the past. To say "he has a right to make a living" is a valid opinion but not necessarily a reflection of the law and your ability to sue him. Another opinion is "you have the right to not have ex-employees sabotaging your business whilst working in it" - again that's not the law necessarily, just my opinion.

I would calculate how much the lost contracts will cost you and if its a big sum, see a solicitor - an initial chat will help you decide whether its worth pursuing and shouldn't cost too much.

As for him counter suing for spying - lol.

 

[MBE1]

I understand the whole idea of being fair to employees but if you look at the bigger picture it would make a whole lot more sense to protect the business and let the employees look after themselves- the more protection there is for businesses the more businesses will open and the more jobs will be supplied- it is a win for everyone!!

It seems you do not understand.

Maybe it would be better to concentrate on the mistakes made in the initial recruitment of your ex employee, and making the other employees wish to stay and remain with your company than wistfully wishing for something that is never going to happen. Well motivated employees tend to remain with their current employer, maybe somewhere down the line you did something to lose the ex employees loyalty.

 

[carolme]

I understand a whole lot more than you will ever know on this topic! I have lived and worked in a country where you can be sacked for any reason without question and have little to no rights- I have even been sacked after working for a place for 7 years and the only reason was because I was leaving in a few months because I was getting married and moving to this country! This left me without work for 6 months without any chance of getting employment!! I had living expenses, a wedding to pay for, and the expense of moving here- it isn't cheap- the visa alone was £1000! Despite all of that I still support the small businesses- even if you are completely self centered you are foolish not to support bussiness- the more healthy bussinesses there are the more likely you will be able to find work and the better chance you have of supporting your family!

My fault is that I care too much for staff and because I am a Christian I won't do it any other way! Money is the issue- he left because he had a better offer! I pay my employees as much as I can afford and I bonus them based on how hard they work- every single employee that we have earns a better wage than I do and I do have a few really good employees who I believe are loyal to a certain extent! I have and always will do what I believe to be right- I even gave him a going away party when he left and made all kinds of goodies which I knew he liked- and he was acting pretty guilty through it all...

 

I have to say that I am less than impressed with things in this country-

I suspect many feel the same.

But you have options.

Leaving for better paid job is pretty standard.

I am sure you would do the same.?

 

[carolme]

[/quote] Leaving for better paid job is pretty standard.[/quote]

I agree and I am very supportive of people bettering themselves- I had 2 employees leave last year- both were up front with where they went and I still have a very good relationship with them!



I am sure you would do the same.?[/quote]

Depending on the situation I may do but I would never compromise ethics

 

Leaving for better paid job is pretty standard.[/quote]

I agree and I am very supportive of people bettering themselves- I had 2 employees leave last year- both were up front with where they went and I still have a very good relationship with them!



I am sure you would do the same.?[/quote]

Depending on the situation I may do but I would never compromise ethics[/quote]

If you are in business most people have to.

 

[MBE1]

I understand a whole lot more than you will ever know on this topic! I have lived and worked in a country where you can be sacked for any reason without question and have little to no rights- I have even been sacked after working for a place for 7 years and the only reason was because I was leaving in a few months because I was getting married and moving to this country! This left me without work for 6 months without any chance of getting employment!! ....Despite all of that I still support the small businesses.

My fault is that I care too much for staff and because I am a Christian I won't do it any other way!

Considering your own experience I am suprised you wish the UK to overturn current employee protection, and return to basically victorian times. The world has moved on, things will not change back.

You say you care for employees being a christian, yet in your previous post you thought it better they lose all their rights and fend for themselves. You either think one way or the other.

Most people on this forum will be in agreement with some changes regarding employees, but totally killing off hard won protection is not something many would wish to return to.

 

[Big Pete]

The world has moved on, things will not change back.

killing off hard won protection is not something many would wish to return to.

Yes you are right its screwed and will NEVER be right again , its moved on for the worst .sadly..

I would if possible shake a magic wand and go back to the old days in a flash. proper days when men were men GB was the best , and you had to travel to Africa to sample African life and not just pop down the local tesco to do it

yes i know you will think i am racist so put me in prison and give me bread and water for a year so i conform to the New World order regime

 

Yes you are right its screwed and will NEVER be right again , its moved on for the worst .sadly..

I would if possible shake a magic wand and go back to the old days in a flash. proper days when men were men GB was the best , and you had to travel to Africa to sample African life and not just pop down the local tesco to do it

yes i know you will think i am racist so put me in prison and give me bread and water for a year so i conform to the New World order regime

Not at all laddie.

But do you get men in white coats following you?

 

[carolme]

Considering your own experience I am suprised you wish the UK to overturn current employee protection, and return to basically victorian times. The world has moved on, things will not change back.

You say you care for employees being a christian, yet in your previous post you thought it better they lose all their rights and fend for themselves. You either think one way or the other.

Most people on this forum will be in agreement with some changes regarding employees, but totally killing off hard won protection is not something many would wish to return to.

Just because I believe that the government should support the employer more than the employee doesn't mean that I am not Christian and it also doesn't mean that I believe that it is right to treat employees or anyone for that matter poorly- it simply means that I think that people who run their own business should focus their time on running their business and less time worrying about babysitting their staff! Business owners today have to be an expert in employment law, health and safety, the whole medical field- or be able to pay someone to do it! The frosting on the cake is when a tribunal judge told me that I can't even trust what a GP puts on fit notes and I need to chase up the doctors to find out exactly what they mean by "Not Fit for any kind of work"

The bottom line is if the government is going to error they should error on the side of the employer- the good old saying- "Don't bite the hand that feeds you"

Changes are being made- the most recent I have heard is that employees will have to be employed for 2 years before they can take an employer to tribunal! More changes like this should be made- no matter how bad an employer is or isn't the single employee always has to freedom to leave and find other work- the employer might not have all of those options available and at the very least it is a whole lot harder! I really think if you have ever owned your own business you would agree that things are just too far the other way in this country and it should be a bit more balanced!

 

[ebabystuff]

I could be proven wrong, but I dont think persuing the ex employer will provide anything more than a long winded, time consuming and expensive exercise which will probably offer little or no result.

My only advice would be to send a solicitors letter (just one) directly to the employee noting the fact they have "used" intellectual property from their time at your business which contravines the employment agreement you had with them and they should cease immediately or face further action. You never know, this may scare them enough to back off targeting your customers.

 

Just because I believe that the government should support the employer more than the employee doesn't mean that I am not Christian

But government has always supported the greedy and tolerated the needy.:|

Sounds like you may have some doubts about being a Christian as you keep mentionong it.?

 

[LianneL]

Hi Carolme,

As some of the others said you do have options.

Yes, employees do have a right to earn a living so it can be difficult to enforce clauses preventing employees going to work for the competition. However, does your contract also have clauses relating to not poaching customers? They would be easier to enforce. If nothing else, it would be worth sending a formal letter to the employee reminding him of his obligations under his employment contract and asking him to sign and return a copy of the letter acknowledging that he agrees to be bound by them. It's useful to use this as the process every time an employee resigns from your company.

I agree with the contributor who stated that you need to add up the total cost of the lost contracts and have a chat with a solicitor to fully explore your options.

As an HR professional I sit in the middle on the debate around employment laws in the UK. They are there to help employees who find themselves employed by unscrupulous employers. For that, we should be grateful. The challenge arises when employers find themselves employing unscrupulous employees!

Hope this helps a little

Kind regards

LianneL

 

it would be worth sending a formal letter to the employee reminding him of his obligations under his employment contract and asking him to sign and return a copy of the letter acknowledging that he agrees to be bound by them.

Can't see him signing if he has been poaching.

 

[Employment Law Clinic]

Business owners today have to be an expert in employment law, health and safety, the whole medical field- or be able to pay someone to do it!

Hi Carolme,

You missed accountancy off your list, but yes, there are a lot of people you have to pay for if you don't want to learn it all yourself.

The frosting on the cake is when a tribunal judge told me that I can't even trust what a GP puts on fit notes and I need to chase up the doctors to find out exactly what they mean by "Not Fit for any kind of work"

Fit notes are still relatively new, and employment judges don't necessarily know the rules on them (I don't think they're included in the employment law books most professionals, including judges rely upon). Just because a judge told you that you needed to chase up the doctor doesn't mean that was required by law – the judge (as they often are) could have been wrong.

There are rules that apply to the issuing of fit notes, and these include rule 6:

"Subject to rule 8, the condition in respect of which the doctor is advising the patient is not fit for work or, as the case may be, which has caused the patient’s absence from work shall be specified as precisely as the doctor’s knowledge of the patient’s condition at the time of the assessment permits."
​

Unless disclosing that information would have been prejudicial to the patient’s well-being, or to the patient’s position with their employer [I have no idea how the latter could apply, given the laws that exist], that's what a fit note should include, and you as an employer should be able to rely on the contents of it.

I haven’t seen the judgment, but based on your comments Carolme, I think you may have been able to rely upon The Social Security (Medical Evidence) and Statutory Sick Pay (Medical Evidence) (Amendment) Regulations 2010 to challenge the findings... and that's why it might be sensible for SMEs to pay someone that does know about employment law - to challenge the comments of employment judges.



Karl Limpert

 

[Spongebob]

An employer has no right to expect loyalty from an employee. Loyalty has to be earned or bought.

An employee is simply a mercenary doing a job of work for the company which will give him or her the best deal. If you lose an employee to a competitor the blame lies squarely with yourself for failing to ensure that the deal they were on was competitive.

As for an erstwhile emplyee 'poaching' customers, what rubbish! No company 'owns' its customer base and if an employee has such good personal relationships with customers that they are likely to follow him to a competitor perhaps that is all the more reason that he should be looked after and his 'loyalty' bought with a package commensurate with his importance...

 

[carolme]

Hi Carolme,

You missed accountancy off your list, but yes, there are a lot of people you have to pay for if you don't want to learn it all yourself.



Fit notes are still relatively new, and employment judges don't necessarily know the rules on them (I don't think they're included in the employment law books most professionals, including judges rely upon). Just because a judge told you that you needed to chase up the doctor doesn't mean that was required by law – the judge (as they often are) could have been wrong.

OK- so I have to be an expert in all fields under the sun but employment judges don't even need to know the rules on fit notes?? Am I the only one who sees something wrong with this picture??

There are rules that apply to the issuing of fit notes, and these include rule 6:

"Subject to rule 8, the condition in respect of which the doctor is advising the patient is not fit for work or, as the case may be, which has caused the patient’s absence from work shall be specified as precisely as the doctor’s knowledge of the patient’s condition at the time of the assessment permits."
​

Unless disclosing that information would have been prejudicial to the patient’s well-being, or to the patient’s position with their employer [I have no idea how the latter could apply, given the laws that exist], that's what a fit note should include, and you as an employer should be able to rely on the contents of it.

I haven’t seen the judgment, but based on your comments Carolme, I think you may have been able to rely upon The Social Security (Medical Evidence) and Statutory Sick Pay (Medical Evidence) (Amendment) Regulations 2010 to challenge the findings... and that's why it might be sensible for SMEs to pay someone that does know about employment law - to challenge the comments of employment judges

Karl Limpert

Isn't it just common sense to know that an employer should follow the recomendation of a medical doctor? I can gaurantee you that if we had allowed him to work and something happened they would get us for that as well...

 

[Employment Law Clinic]

Isn't it just common sense to know that an employer should follow the recomendation of a medical doctor? I can gaurantee you that if we had allowed him to work and something happened they would get us for that as well...

It is common sense to many of us, but employment judges don't always apply common sense - or even the laws that they are expected to enforce.



Karl Limpert