Fundraising music project (supporting SANE and Shelter)

[NorthernNewbie]

You may remember about 4-5 months ago I posted a provisional plan to start up a not-for-profit net record label to promote electronic music, but first and foremost, raise funds for two charities, SANE (a mental health charity) and Shelter (a homelessness charity). I am suffering, as we speak, from issues that these two charities address so it's ironic; however:

Here is how the project has grown; I am singlehandedly organising, promoting, etc this project, but here is what I have so far:

https://soundcloud.com/loudandclearproject/indaya-snowburn-ep-forthcoming-lac001
Then first release on the label. And if you read the bio on the main page of that soundcloud link you can get afeel for the project more.

the twitter is @loudclearprj

With very little promo, I now have more access to the internet to get the idea out there - we have raised £5, but what will that cover for the chariites in question? Answer - not much.

I now plan to release the second instalment, but this time change the format. I could do a bandcamp page but that will lead to more subsidisartion of funds. I could equally just stick to the current format and just "release" the music after a minimum donation target has been released.

For any ideas or feedback (and that includes demo submissions if you're a musician yourself!) please post away!

Regards,

Jay

 

[NorthernNewbie]

You can also donate here: https://www.gofundme.com/loudandclearproj
When I have a better understanding of how gofundme works/releases funds etc I can think about changing format/if I need to.

 

[NorthernNewbie]

BUMP

 

[billmccallum1957]

You have a couple of problems with what you are trying to do.

Are you trying to raise money to develop your music project or to give to two charities?

SANE have an income of over £1 million a year, do they really need you to raise £1000, £5,000 or more?

SHELTER have an income of over £50 million!!!!!

Many people will support a locally led community project, but are loathe to fund larger charities who seem to have lots of spare cash.

I would suggest setting up a social enterprise and bidding for some National Lottery funding for you music project and leave the fundraising to the charities who have lots of cash to pay people to do it.

 

[The Byre]

You are going to raise diddly-squat by bolting together goofy samples in Fruity-Loops, Reason, or Magix Music-Maker.

Creating electronic music by using off-the-shelf samples is a consumer activity and is no more likely to raise money, than trying to raise money for charity by eating a cheese sandwich.

Also, nearly all the ready-made sample packs have a copyright stipulation that you may not use them for commercial purposes without the payment of an additional fee - selling music on-line for charity is a commercial activity, so those funny noises you have been making, could open you up to litigation.

What you have there is a hobby and one that is indulged in by hundreds of thousands of people in the UK and millions across Planet Earth. If you really want to raise money for SANE, roll up your sleeves and help the existing projects that they have on the go.

 

[paulears]

What on earth is it? It's not really a genre, is it? It has, as afar as I'm aware, no makes sector. If it raises money then it's basically a charity donation, and not something people want. Forget the charity a moment. Consider the music. Who is the typical consumer of it? what age, background, status, income etc - like any music, it comes up against other stuff and has to hold it's own. Sadly, it's musically inept, random in character and difficult to listen to - so very, very limited market and people just won't find it. A few might download it, but perhaps you could get the same result with a nice image for a screensaver and a PayPal donate button?

It's not the genre of music, just that it's not, sadly, very good. Like the Byre, I got the impression it's just what happens when you use the non-musical packages to produce music from random presets.

If you seriously want to raise money, you need a product that people will want, and I'm afraid I doubt this is it.

 

[Edd Dutton]

I feel like, with this type of music, you'd be better off speaking to indie game developers and raising funds through them.

 

[NorthernNewbie]

You are going to raise diddly-squat by bolting together goofy samples in Fruity-Loops, Reason, or Magix Music-Maker.

Creating electronic music by using off-the-shelf samples is a consumer activity and is no more likely to raise money, than trying to raise money for charity by eating a cheese sandwich.

Also, nearly all the ready-made sample packs have a copyright stipulation that you may not use them for commercial purposes without the payment of an additional fee - selling music on-line for charity is a commercial activity, so those funny noises you have been making, could open you up to litigation.

What you have there is a hobby and one that is indulged in by hundreds of thousands of people in the UK and millions across Planet Earth. If you really want to raise money for SANE, roll up your sleeves and help the existing projects that they have on the go.

That's just pissing on the people that make THE future of music, do you realise how successful people can become by using that "Magix Music Maker?", no probably not. The chances of litigation from electronic music these days is little to none, piracy is so rampant and electronic music borrows from acapellas, "off the shelf" sample packs which are sold to be intended to be recycled and re-used, and there are such thing as "royalty FREE" (which is mostly what I use, if not, Ableton drums which come with the software")

And you obviously have no sense of community that the electronic music makers have. You're just looking at it from a business perspective, look at it from a social enterprise perspective; there's a few netlabels, but little to none raise funds for charities, yeah they have big turnovers, so what? Does that mean they can't take more donations?

 

[NorthernNewbie]

What on earth is it? It's not really a genre, is it? It has, as afar as I'm aware, no makes sector. If it raises money then it's basically a charity donation, and not something people want. Forget the charity a moment. Consider the music. Who is the typical consumer of it? what age, background, status, income etc - like any music, it comes up against other stuff and has to hold it's own. Sadly, it's musically inept, random in character and difficult to listen to - so very, very limited market and people just won't find it. A few might download it, but perhaps you could get the same result with a nice image for a screensaver and a PayPal donate button?

It's not the genre of music, just that it's not, sadly, very good. Like the Byre, I got the impression it's just what happens when you use the non-musical packages to produce music from random presets.

If you seriously want to raise money, you need a product that people will want, and I'm afraid I doubt this is it.

80 downloads with little to no promo, "a few", "not very good". If you didn't like it no need to shoot the idea down with such self-righteous pomposity, dick.

Anyway guys, here is the new bandcamp (which, if anyone does have an idea, is very much in vogue to promote electronic music.

https://loudandclearproject.bandcamp.com/


If you think electronic music has no "market sector" you're also sadly mistaken Paul, in your day it was Kraftwerk, these days, every man and his dog. Goodnight.

 

[paulears]

I didn't say electronic music has no market sector - in fact Brian Eno has a product shifting at the moment which is 50 odd minutes of one long track. The difference is his is good, and yours isn't. Portsmouth Sinfonia have millions of downloads because they are dire - so don't confuse downloads with success.

We all like different things - in my day it wasn't even Kraftwerk. I can appreciate, but not necessarily like all kinds of music - but it needs to be well put together, musically appropriate and well recorded. You can stream white noise on spotify - somebody produced an album of hiss, and people download it.

On music forums, you post your music and accept opinion from strangers. Why did you think here would be different. Just because I hate it doesn't make me a dick, just somebody who didn't like it.

 

[The Byre]

That's just pissing on the people that make THE future of music, do you realise how successful people can become by using that "Magix Music Maker?", no probably not. The chances of litigation from electronic music these days is little to none, piracy is so rampant and electronic music borrows from acapellas, "off the shelf" sample packs which are sold to be intended to be recycled and re-used, and there are such thing as "royalty FREE" (which is mostly what I use, if not, Ableton drums which come with the software")

1. The samples included in Magix Music Maker and Ableton Live are not for commercial use and they are watermarked. You have to apply for and pay for a separate license to use them commercially. Any significant successes using those samples without a commercial license will result in 'that' letter from Berlin or from their agents in the UK.

2. Commercial releases from major labels do use samples, but from a label that belongs to the same media company. So if Nicki Minaj's engineer Jaycen Joshua mixes in a sample from Public Enemy from the 80s, he just has to make a phone call to Universal to get clearance. You can't do that!

3. Everybody else has to painstakingly recreate any samples and be able to prove that they did so.

4. I strongly suggest that you read and reread the T&C for those 'royalty free' sample packs. They are only royalty free for home and hobby use. The moment you try to use them commercially and you gain any kind of traction with your music, they 'come-a-knocking!'

And you obviously have no sense of community that the electronic music makers have. You're just looking at it from a business perspective, look at it from a social enterprise perspective; there's a few netlabels, but little to none raise funds for charities, yeah they have big turnovers, so what? Does that mean they can't take more donations?

Fortunately for you, the odd noises you are making will gain no traction whatsoever. If however you were to make something more commercial (i.e. something people WANT to hear!) you would soon discover the length and depth of the "neon-lit money trench, where pimps and thieves roam free and good men die like dogs!"

The music business is litigious like no other business on Planet Earth.

 

[NorthernNewbie]

1.

The samples included in Magix Music Maker and Ableton Live are not for commercial use and they are watermarked. You have to apply for and pay for a separate license to use them commercially. Any significant successes using those samples without a commercial license will result in 'that' letter from Berlin or from their agents in the UK.

Never heard of Magix thought you'd made it up, anyway, no the samples in Ableton aren't watermarked, not the drum kits and synths etc why do you think the kits are there, to make music. Say for instance I made a generic sounding MIDI clap in Ableton who's gonna tell me where it's from? No one. Then process it, process it some more, annnnnnnnnnd process it some more - you have a completely new sound, voila!

2. Commercial releases from major labels do use samples, but from a label that belongs to the same media company. So if Nicki Minaj's engineer Jaycen Joshua mixes in a sample from Public Enemy from the 80s, he just has to make a phone call to Universal to get clearance. You can't do that!


You're confusing the mainstream, big bucks music business with the "underground" music game here, I can link you to scores and scores upon scores and scores of "underground" music that has been released, officially, digitally or otherwise, which may or may not have got clearance but what I'm saying is; people are turning more and more of a blind eye to sampling these days I guarantee it. As long as the music created isn't intended to "substantially" (and that's the key-word; substantially) profit (so UK commercial airplay etc etc, then it's kosher.

3. Everybody else has to painstakingly recreate any samples and be able to prove that they did so.

So tell me then, how does one create a kick drum from scratch? And when does that kick drum become royalty-free?

4. I strongly suggest that you read and reread the T&C for those 'royalty free' sample packs. They are only royalty free for home and hobby use. The moment you try to use them commercially and you gain any kind of traction with your music, they 'come-a-knocking!'

Let them come I'm not profiteering from this project whatsoever, I think they'd be a little more lenient if it were for charity, DOES it become commercial if it's not not for profit, you tell me.

Fortunately for you, the odd noises you are making will gain no traction whatsoever. If however you were to make something more commercial (i.e. something people WANT to hear!) you would soon discover the length and depth of the "neon-lit money trench, where pimps and thieves roam free and good men die like dogs!"

That's just it I don't want to make anything "commercial" because commercial mainstream electronic music is becoming more and more tedious, that crap played on Radio 1 has led people to believe that everything is electronically produced is somehow brilliant but the "anti-mainstream" view on it on it is the less "exposed" to the mainstream the music is, the "better" it is, it's kind of a preservation thing. As long as I have fun in curating the project and it raises even a small amount. So yes this project may or may not grow steadily and I am happy in the direction it's going but aside from being a "commercial" project it's also a personal one for my love of the genre - surely a key thing when pursing something not-for-profit. And I'm pretty sure people do want to hear the music, I have tunes on youtube with tens of thousands of views just because it's not to someone's taste doesn't make it "bad", taste is very much subjective.

The music business is litigious like no other business on Planet Earth.

 

[paulears]

You said

I posted a provisional plan to start up a not-for-profit net record label to promote electronic music, but first and foremost, raise funds for two charities, SANE (a mental health charity) and Shelter (a homelessness charity). I am suffering, as we speak, from issues that these two charities address so it's ironic; however:

If you work for charities - they will want you to do things professionally, and legally. Of course many people do turn a blind eye to this kind of thing, but off you intend to use the product, with a well known charity - they might insist you stay legal.

Charities pay PRS and PPL when they raise money using material that is rights controlled. Just how the music business works.

 

[The Byre]

Never heard of Magix thought you'd made it up,

Magix, Ableton, Melodyne, CuBase/Nuendo, Elastique and many other music SW packages are from companies based in Berlin, as Berlin has a very good mathematics school, run by the three main universities there. Magix have just bought 'Vegas' and 'Soundforge' from Sony. It is not a small company!

no the samples in Ableton aren't watermarked, not the drum kits and synths etc why do you think the kits are there, to make music.

Watermarking is done by tracing the sonic signature of the sound. You can do this for ANY complex sound. As soon as you put it on the web, the owner of that sound can find it fairly quickly, even if the sound is buried in the mix. That SW is out there, trawling the web 24/7 and informs the owner when it has found a sound belonging to him.

So tell me then, how does one create a kick drum from scratch?

You take an Audix D6 (or similar) and stick it in front of the kick drum! Simples!

Let them come I'm not profiteering from this project whatsoever, I think they'd be a little more lenient if it were for charity, DOES it become commercial if it's not not for profit, you tell me.

Charity work is regarded legally as commerce. And the day music company lawyers get lenient, is the day little birdies come flying out of my butt!

I don't want to make anything "commercial"

And there was me, thinking that you wanted to make money for charity!

You're confusing the mainstream, big bucks music business with the "underground" music game here, I can link you to scores and scores upon scores and scores of "underground" music that has been released, officially, digitally or otherwise, which may or may not have got clearance but what I'm saying is; people are turning more and more of a blind eye to sampling these days I guarantee it.

That is a very dangerous attitude to take. We all turn a blind eye to hobbyists who try to go commercial, as there is no money to be had from them - the moment you earn a buck (or someone says "Hey, let's swat this fly, seeing how it's Tuesday!") we come calling!

And if you think that it won't happen to you, think again!

Here's a message from a guy who is now a successful producer and musician, about what happened when he was working with an unknown (at the time!) underground band, when they wanted to use a five second sample from some unknown documentary. This happened in the days before free SW was out there, looking for copyrighted sounds and images -

In 1995 or so I did some remixes for the indie band I was in at the time. I had a DAT cassette with audio snippets from a bunch of weird documentaries and stuff that I'd sample from - mostly for weird noises and ambiences like factory machinery, etc., but there was one documentary on that tape about religion in America, with interviews, snake handlers and crazy preachers, etc. I sampled a tiny snippet of the interviewer asking, "Do you believe in miracles?" and the interviewee responding, "Not really..."

I dropped that tiny soundbite into a break in the remix - the "Not really" part was in a hole where everything dropped out just before a huge chorus came blasting in. The guy saying, "Not really..." was lighting a cigarette, and you could hear him flip his Zippo open and his speech was kind of pinched, as it would be when you're holding a cigarette in your mouth... all in all, very unique and charismatic.

The remix came out only on the European edition of a Maxi-CD with six or seven other remixes by various folks - the US version did not have my remix on it, so it was a pretty obscure release, and in the late 1990's, way before file sharing, etc. - so pretty much only the hardcore fans of the band had access to my remix. We only pressed a few thousand of that version of the CD.

Wouldn't ya know it - the guy who produced the original documentary was not dead and gone, and was in fact teaching in a film program somewhere, and he showed his documentaries to his students. When that moment came up, with the very unique sound of the guy saying, "Not really", some got-danged student piped up and said, "Wow! Did you know that's been sampled in a song by my favorite band?". The teacher had never heard of our band, but he got dollar signs in his eyes and the phone calls started.

What are the odds? I mean, seriously? Literally five seconds, seven words, from a 20-year-old documentary that I recorded off of PBS when I was in college, dropped 4 minutes in on a harsh industrial remix that was like track six on a CD full of gnarly unlistenable noise that only our hardcore fans in Europe would ever hear.

Anyway, we had to pay $8,000 to get out of that one.

Eight. Thousand. Dollars.

And them's 1995 dollars, too.

I got scolded badly for that one - we paid the producer of the documentary $8k and burned a few thousand more in lawyer time. It would have been a lot cheaper if we'd gone to the producer beforehand and secured the rights - he might have even given us the rights gratis - but how the hell was I gonna find him? I just had a DAT tape with the audio from a zillion different sources, with no credits or other info about where the stuff came from. The best I could do was, "It was some documentary on PBS about religion". So if you sample and release without securing rights then they've got you by the short and curlies. What are you gonna do, recall all the CDs? Go to people's houses and swap their CD for a "scrubbed" version? Too late. Gotta pay.

So... sure, sample away! But get clearances first or be prepared to pay and pay when you're found out.

Here's the clip on YouTube (go to 4:02 if it doesn't cue up to the spot):

 

[NorthernNewbie]

Never heard of Magix thought you'd made it up,

Magix, Ableton, Melodyne, CuBase/Nuendo, Elastique and many other music SW packages are from companies based in Berlin, as Berlin has a very good mathematics school, run by the three main universities there. Magix have just bought 'Vegas' and 'Soundforge' from Sony. It is not a small company!

I hadn't heard of the DAW itself, as indeed it doesn't exist, it's actually a company which produces them (as I am gathering)

no the samples in Ableton aren't watermarked, not the drum kits and synths etc why do you think the kits are there, to make music.

Never heard of Magix thought you'd made it up,Watermarking is done by tracing the sonic signature of the sound. You can do this for ANY complex sound. As soon as you put it on the web, the owner of that sound can find it fairly quickly, even if the sound is buried in the mix. That SW is out there, trawling the web 24/7 and informs the owner when it has found a sound belonging to him.

Right but that's for things such as vocal samples and suchlike? Abelton comes with 10s of 1000s of samples such as synths, drums etc Once you purchase the DAW surely you are able to use them in your productions? Because it would defeat the object otherwise right? Of all the 100s of people I know through music I cant think of anyone that's been prosecuted yet, and definitely not someone who has produced music made on a DAW that comes with samples ready-made when you purchase the software!



Let them come I'm not profiteering from this project whatsoever, I think they'd be a little more lenient if it were for charity, DOES it become commercial if it's not not for profit, you tell me.

Charity work is regarded legally as commerce. And the day music company lawyers get lenient, is the day little birdies come flying out of my butt!

Good job it's not charity work then, directly, it's an inadvertent donation/fundraising. It'd be different if I was actually employed by the charity itself. Also, both charities have tweeted showing support so so far so good.

I don't want to make anything "commercial"

And there was me, thinking that you wanted to make money for charity!

Well shoot me down.

You're confusing the mainstream, big bucks music business with the "underground" music game here, I can link you to scores and scores upon scores and scores of "underground" music that has been released, officially, digitally or otherwise, which may or may not have got clearance but what I'm saying is; people are turning more and more of a blind eye to sampling these days I guarantee it.

That is a very dangerous attitude to take. We all turn a blind eye to hobbyists who try to go commercial, as there is no money to be had from them - the moment you earn a buck (or someone says "Hey, let's swat this fly, seeing how it's Tuesday!") we come calling!

And if you think that it won't happen to you, think again!

Well I'm yet to know anyone prosecuted and I know a fair few people in the electornic music scene, that is, if you can deem my venture to be "commercial" I don't think it is. I am not profiteering from it, yes it's raising funds for charity therefore revenue is being generated but is it the same as a straight up transaction? Take websites such as Bandcamp. People are actually personally profiting from those (y'know, from music they've made in software!) Bandcamp is steadily growing.

Here's a message from a guy who is now a successful producer and musician, about what happened when he was working with an unknown (at the time!) underground band, when they wanted to use a five second sample from some unknown documentary. This happened in the days before free SW was out there, looking for copyrighted sounds and images -

In 1995 or so I did some remixes for the indie band I was in at the time. I had a DAT cassette with audio snippets from a bunch of weird documentaries and stuff that I'd sample from - mostly for weird noises and ambiences like factory machinery, etc., but there was one documentary on that tape about religion in America, with interviews, snake handlers and crazy preachers, etc. I sampled a tiny snippet of the interviewer asking, "Do you believe in miracles?" and the interviewee responding, "Not really..."

I dropped that tiny soundbite into a break in the remix - the "Not really" part was in a hole where everything dropped out just before a huge chorus came blasting in. The guy saying, "Not really..." was lighting a cigarette, and you could hear him flip his Zippo open and his speech was kind of pinched, as it would be when you're holding a cigarette in your mouth... all in all, very unique and charismatic.

The remix came out only on the European edition of a Maxi-CD with six or seven other remixes by various folks - the US version did not have my remix on it, so it was a pretty obscure release, and in the late 1990's, way before file sharing, etc. - so pretty much only the hardcore fans of the band had access to my remix. We only pressed a few thousand of that version of the CD.

Wouldn't ya know it - the guy who produced the original documentary was not dead and gone, and was in fact teaching in a film program somewhere, and he showed his documentaries to his students. When that moment came up, with the very unique sound of the guy saying, "Not really", some got-danged student piped up and said, "Wow! Did you know that's been sampled in a song by my favorite band?". The teacher had never heard of our band, but he got dollar signs in his eyes and the phone calls started.

What are the odds? I mean, seriously? Literally five seconds, seven words, from a 20-year-old documentary that I recorded off of PBS when I was in college, dropped 4 minutes in on a harsh industrial remix that was like track six on a CD full of gnarly unlistenable noise that only our hardcore fans in Europe would ever hear.

Anyway, we had to pay $8,000 to get out of that one.

Eight. Thousand. Dollars.

And them's 1995 dollars, too.

I got scolded badly for that one - we paid the producer of the documentary $8k and burned a few thousand more in lawyer time. It would have been a lot cheaper if we'd gone to the producer beforehand and secured the rights - he might have even given us the rights gratis - but how the hell was I gonna find him? I just had a DAT tape with the audio from a zillion different sources, with no credits or other info about where the stuff came from. The best I could do was, "It was some documentary on PBS about religion". So if you sample and release without securing rights then they've got you by the short and curlies. What are you gonna do, recall all the CDs? Go to people's houses and swap their CD for a "scrubbed" version? Too late. Gotta pay.

So... sure, sample away! But get clearances first or be prepared to pay and pay when you're found out.

Here's the clip on YouTube (go to 4:02 if it doesn't cue up to the spot):

Well we live in a different age, that was 22 years ago. The age of piracy is upon us. The electronic music scene is rapidly expanding, people are sampling stuff left right and centre. The worst I have heard is someone having their music taken down off youtube, it's just not worth the record company's while these days to take every little producer to court unless they were significantly profiting, which, given the well known fact that there's no money to be made in electronic music unless you really have a break then, play on!

 

[NorthernNewbie]

https://loudandclearproject.bandcamp.com/ Here is the bandcamp for those interested.

 

[paulears]

A friend used some movie music in a youtube video. A complaint was made from the copyright holder. Youtube removed it. He then received a cease and desist letter, and a warning that they intend taking legal action.

The age of piracy is not new - we had pirate radio in the 70s, and that was illegal too. I find the sharing attitude surprising, because very often the people demanding that music should be free are also the same people who shout about human rights. Surely the moral view should be, ask permission first, and use if it's granted. We seem to prefer, use it anyway and stuff the owner!

 

[ethical PR]

https://loudandclearproject.bandcamp.com/ Here is the bandcamp for those interested.

Did SANE and Shelter give you permission to link their brands to your project on your website and other content?

 

[rizbit]

the online world is saturated with free music i think even well more known artists sometimes struggle to make an income with music sales.

 

[loudclearproject]

this is NN under a new account.

I have shifted the goalposts on this

I will post the link soon