Full Web Site and Company Computer System Help

[TotallySport]

Hi

We currently have an excisitng web site, which we plan to build on and develop. At present I am putting together a brief of how we want it to work, look and all the things it needs etc.

I am stuck at one point the new site will need a much better accounting, stock management system and customer service interface, I know these can be done either online on with in desktop package bt which would be best. The thing I am worried about is all of these can be done online, but online functionality is very dependant on an internet connect and its speed etc, in theory if it was on a desk top it would work if the internet conection failed and would sole be reliant on the speed of the PC, plus it should be much more secure.

Which one would be better? will it make a massive difference to the running of the company? and would there be a big price difference? oh and is we went for a web site / desk top system would a web designer be able to build it or will we need a specialist company?

Any advice or info would be apriciated, thanks in advance.

 

[dave_n]

all depends on who is using the interface....you will have to assess the merits of internet/centrally managed system against desktop clients.
is this an internal application used by staff or by external public users?

From a web design perspective it's certainly do-able.

 

[TotallySport]

Hi

Sorry should have explained better.

The hole development will be for a web site which will be ecommerce, including everything that is envovled with that, plus a bit more, and a back office system which will only really be needed to us at our offices. I cannot see any reason at this time to have our back office available anywhere. And although we will never need to changeit from a remote location, people may need to view stock levels, but I cannot see a major problem in either system to this.

So in summery the web site will be used by costomers and the back office by staff in the office. there maybe a chance we will need a system to also intergrate into an EPOS system in a B&M shop.

Sorry many choices.

 

[TotallySport]

Should also point out the main merrits will be cost, will it be more expensive to have a web / desk top option built?

 

[dave_n]

cheaper to have a web based system....and in your scenario makes much more sense.
this will give you far more scalability and less reliance on separate entitites of software sitting on a users pc's

eg
A pc goes titsup so u have to install the software on another.....not the case with a browser.
If the system encounters problems - is it the desktop software or the system?
If the system is updated then all the separate software clients on the desktops will need upgrading.
A web based system can be accessible from anywhere eg hotel, train, internet cafe etc
Also a user can put an order through on the fone for a customer should they be required

 

[TotallySport]

But surely having your accounts, and stock management system, could be slow and clunky in an 100% online system?

I know what you mean by having them all in one place will make the programming simpler, but I think it will also be relatively restrictive in terms of adding factors such as adding a system to use in a bricks and motar side, plus we want an automated packing system would that not be very slow over the internet?

 

[TotallySport]

Sorry I am not sure I have explained myself properly, there will only be two systems, one back office system which organises stock control, warehouse management, accounts to some degree, customer services, which I would think would be better based in our office and not online, the second system would be a web based and allow the customers to shop buy and for use to promote, with a few add ons, all of which would be custom built ( I don't expect to grab different systems and get them to work together in a way we are not happy with)

There are sections of the back office sytem that could get complex in the way we want them to work and the thing that worries me is having them web based is it will be very slow, or if the internet connection goes down eveyone will have nothing to do.

 

[dave_n]

why would it be slow....all the processing is done by the back end...and if it is coded properly then the system should be optimised for speed.

the only thing restricting it would be the network connection...which would be the same with desktop clients.

some of the worlds biggest stock management systems - clarity, SAP are browser based...

 

[dave_n]

Sorry I am not sure I have explained myself properly, there will only be two systems, one back office system which organises stock control, warehouse management, accounts to some degree, customer services, which I would think would be better based in our office and not online, the second system would be a web based and allow the customers to shop buy and for use to promote, with a few add ons, all of which would be custom built ( I don't expect to grab different systems and get them to work together in a way we are not happy with)

There are sections of the back office sytem that could get complex in the way we want them to work and the thing that worries me is having them web based is it will be very slow, or if the internet connection goes down eveyone will have nothing to do.

two system that primarily feed off the same data is expensive!

if you use a stock system internally then you dont need internet access!...a simple lan will be used.

I would advise a single system with an admin interface to do all your back office ops

 

[TotallySport]

two system that primarily feed off the same data is expensive!

I thought it would be, everything I want normally is, lol.

if you use a stock system internally then you dont need internet access!...a simple lan will be used.

I would advise a single system with an admin interface to do all your back office ops

Please can you elaberate on that and how would it all fit together?

 

[dave_n]

ok....and this is a really simplistic view!

your full system is hosted on servers in your office with exposure to the internet for joe public

Your office peeps connect to the server internally through your internal network, while joe public comes in through a firewall.
If the internet falls over then your office people can still access and use the system....perhaps doing orders over the fone if required

 

[TotallySport]

ah but that involves me hosting the site, which means more outlay as I would have to employ a hardware techie guy (or girl), plus all the equipment, my plan was to out source it, plus setup a mirror just incase it goes down.

I have no hardware experience or real understanding TBH, although I can see the benefits, might be worth looking into didn't consider that as an option before.

So you knw of any links or info i could read up on to understand what i would need to set it up etc?

Also thanks for the info so far it is very appriciated.

 

[dave_n]

ah but that involves me hosting the site, which means more outlay as I would have to employ a hardware techie guy (or girl), plus all the equipment, my plan was to out source it, plus setup a mirror just incase it goes down.

I have no hardware experience or real understanding TBH, although I can see the benefits, might be worth looking into didn't consider that as an option before.

So you knw of any links or info i could read up on to understand what i would need to set it up etc?

Also thanks for the info so far it is very appriciated.

no probs.....but it does lead to the question - if you have no servers how would you implement a system in the first place, either using web or desktop?

rather than hosting it yourself you could look at getting a dedicated server with a hosting company and make sure you have a strong SLA with them.

An option then may be to mirror from the hosted server to a local pc in case of internet downtime

 

[TotallySport]

We are currently on shared hosting (I know..I know...), we we planning to move to dedicated hosting with or without a linked desk top end in the office (not sure how the data would be linked or stored, haven't worked that out yet).

But hosting it ourselves might be the best options depending on how easy it is to setup and maintain, plus the price is right.

 

[dave_n]

you could use terminal services as your linked desktop and simply publish your application through that....i guess there are many options...even virtualisation!

the first thing u need to do is get your backend system developed and running and then see how you want to expose it

 

[mke]

TotallySport, you can host either remotely or on your own premises. dave_n is absolutely correct. Having the applications spread across PCs depending upon which operative is going to do what is totally inefficient, just as he said. Have everything in one place with secure logins locked to specific functional areas.

For several reasons including ease and cost of offering technical support, security, ease of backing up, cost and more, I'd go for the data centre hosted solution. The lower costs, enhanced customer satisfaction and ease of use for your staff and, if you require them to act on stock levels, suppliers, will be noticeable.

We'd be delighted to have a look at the project with you and perhaps run few tests on our servers so you can fine tune your specifications. You will be very pleasantly surprised at what you will be able to do.

 

[TotallySport]

but depending on the were the backend is located will depend on what laugauge it will need to be built in surely, is it's web based it will need something like ASP.NET, PHP or the like, were as the desktop version will be in something like c#, c+ of similar.

Sorry whats terminal services?

 

[dave_n]

for speed i think you would essentially develop as much business process functionality on the backend eg stored procedures, db functions, triggers etc etc....
If the complexity is on the backend then all the front end would do is simply connect, fire commands and inject/retrieve data....this agian is a simple view of it.

in that way the complex coding is at the backend and not the client, whether it's an app or browser based.

in terminal services u can publish an app eg ms word. and it is available for users to run on the server as opposed to running it on their desktop.

so u login to the server's term svcs and get presented with an application...when u fire it up it runs server side which saves on installing the app on a desktop....it does need a reasonably powered server...i'm working with a hosting partner at the moment in publishing apps through term services.....it's very do-able now that bandwidth and hardware are so cheap

 

[mke]

Once again, Dave is correct in every essential respect. The idea is to let geeks like us worry about the coding and technical end, whilst the users can behave as though what they were looking at were a point and click editor suitable for whichever part of the process they are editing.

The main thing, provided you are happy the above is achieved, is to have the assurance all applications are as open as possible so you are not locked in to any specific process or supplier, and that everything that is done is properly documented so that, if your development team and you part company, whether through disagreement, takeover, circumstance or that supplier just goes t-u, the whole project can easily be handed on with minimal fuss and transfer cost.

 

[TotallySport]

Well there goes me writing it myself lol, way way over my head not even a dream of a chance, plus not the time lol.

Can I ask how much setting up our own servers be (so that it will be online and running at a good rate)?, if you give a basic figure for what you talking about and a reasonable about of traffic, and what we need to start it.

Then off to put a complex brief together and start getting quotes.

mke, thanks for the info, yes I am well aware of problems with hosts, designers and the like, and know what to look and ask for when planning for trouble (just incase).

 

[dave_n]

depend what you want

much of this would be based on the system used and your sla.
would really need to know :

1. Budget (dell are cheap(for a reason), HP are not(for a reason))
2. Disk space required
3. Redundancy required - NLB, raid arrays, mirrors, nas, cas
4. SLA - maximum realistic downtime
5. Backup system needed
6. Amount of concurrent users
7. Remote management required

etc etc etc

 

[TotallySport]

16# Thanks for the heads up, I am at present just putting the brief together with all the functionality, layout and all the other stuff that goes with it, so we can then start looking for someone to build it for use, as I don't have the time or knowledge to build a system of this magnitude.

I'd go for the data centre hosted solution

Sorry I don't know what that means?

We'd be delighted to have a look at the project with you and perhaps run few tests on our servers so you can fine tune your specifications. You will be very pleasantly surprised at what you will be able to do.

Thanks for the offer, but at present we are only planning, but part of being able to put on paper how I want it all to work, I wanted to understand the best way to get the back and front ends to run, and this thread has been excellent. So i don't really have anything solid to test, but thanks for the offer.

 

[TotallySport]

Dave# so it would be better to put a plan together of what I want and then look at the best place to put it lol.

 

[dave_n]

start with some basic business process flow diagrams and then expand each one....you'll soon get to the functionality spec!

 

[TotallySport]

Thanks again, will get flowing asap.

 

[dave_n]

you basically need to turn business processes into requirements...the developer should then map this into system functions which you sign off once tested and approved.

this is THE MOST important phase of your project...get this wrong and everything else will fail

 

[TotallySport]

Don't I know it, I build our current site and as a result its never been finished, the coding is rubbish, there is no commenting or documentions, and the planning was try it and see, although I knew in my mind how I wanted it to work, and i got there, but changing it, and adding new bits etc is a real pain.

Planning is key, then getting someone else to do it well, is another

 

[mke]

That's really difficult to answer without being sure what the actual question, i.e. the full spec, is. It also depends whether you are looking to host your own server in-house, so you'd need a high end DSL or cable connection, the spec of which would depend upon the levels of traffic you are anticipating.

For this reason, I would still suggest doing the initial set up and trialling with a test system on a remote host run by a competent company. Obviously, I think we're the right company but hey, I'm here to help, too, and I won't be upset if you choose somebody else. You can still come back and ask me some more and I'll still give best advice.

We can set up a test server very cheaply and also recommend some applications which you or we or both together can build upon. Obviously we'd have to discuss resources, time frame, how much involvement from us, in order to be able to give an accurate quote.

For once, I'm going to disagree with Dave. Locking yourself into a hardware programme before you even know what the software, server resource and bandwidth demands are actually going to be is, sorry to say, Dave, a business-oriented and not a client oriented approach.

We'd rather work with you to help you design the spec.

Cheers, guys, Mike

 

[dave_n]

agree with mike on the test system ...if we go back to the original question - i think your worry was loss of work through loss of internet connectivity if your system was web based....this will be one of many risks associated with any system - harware failure, system failure, power etc etc.
I think you may have to weigh up what type of system you need - web or local.
If you can't mitigate a internet risk then it may be the case that you have to host it locally unless you can get a good sla on your internet connection.

Lots to consider for you

 

[mke]

lol, indeed, but it's if it were hosted locally I'd be more worried about connectivity - customers who can't see your site can't buy. Most hosts these days are on some sort of failover system for connectivity. Their business depends upon it and the number of customers to the data centre justify the cost, a bit prohibitive to justify for one site or one server.

 

[dave_n]

i think the initial worry was the connectivity form TS's office to the server as opposed to the connectivity at the hosts end.

with any business system there are risks that have to be minimised.....minimised being the operative here!...unfortunately you cannot remove risk...only mitigate it.

 

[TotallySport]

Hi

Sorry I have been away but back to work for a few hours now.

initially my main concerns were that if i had a 100% web based system and the internet either to the host or our dsl line failed I couldn't carry on work and i thought to lessen the risk, having an in house normal (for want of a better work) program running my back end it would mean the staff I paid would not be doing nothing while the problem would be fixed, it would also solve an problems in regard to internet speeds, due to various factors.

dave_n's solution with hosting in-house would be ideal, as even though it might run off the server the internet connection would no longer be the problem regarding our staff, but may be a problem for our customers using the site if it went down. This would also be ideal as the company grows adding to the computer system should be easier and building in epos features should be less hassle than having to go through a third party host.

I think I have a better idea of how I can get both to work, and as such I can plan what i want and how it needs to work better, as soon as I have something solid, I will certainly be intouch since both your advice has been excellent I only think its only fair.

Back to the drawing board, thanks again

 

[Deleted member 27344]

What if your in house electricity failed? You'll have no control either way.
In all honesty, if you worry about something like access, although it's very important, you'll never get anywhere simply because on or offline you'll have possible problems. That's life and business.
What it sounds like to me is that you need an ecommerce site set up that allows you to have a front end for customers to purchase and a back-end to fulfill those purchases.
This is something we do every day.
Contact me and I will be able to send you some URLs of recently developed stores.