forced to own a computer.

[lanny]

Hello. My partner has been in the caring profession for 22yrs, with the NHS then a healthcare trust and from Feb 2009 for Brandon Trust. Having been forced to take a significant pay cut (30%ish) and changes in working conditions, there is now an attempt to force her along with the other staff, using the threat of not being paid, to submit her timesheet online although she has never used a computer and has no interest in doing so.
My question is, can they force her to aquire a computer and attend training.
thanks

 

[JMRidley]

If having all staff submitting timesheets on-line means that this is more efficient for the back office to process then I think they should do it. Making efficiencies in the back office will help to protect frontline services in the long run - why wouldn't your partner want to support this. I expect that the answer to whether an employer can enforce staff using a new process and having related training is yes, otherwise how would employers ever introduce any new ways of working. They can't force someone to buy their own computer though so presumably they will need to provide access to a computer for those who don't have one at home.

 

[bdw]

They can't force someone to buy their own computer though so presumably they will need to provide access to a computer for those who don't have one at home.

I think that is what this may be about

.

 

[ITsoldUK]

They can request it yes as it would be deemed a 'reasonable request' under the C of E I would imagine, but they would be duty bound to offer reasonable training and access to a machine as stated above.

 

[Spongebob]

Hello. My partner has been in the caring profession for 22yrs, with the NHS then a healthcare trust and from Feb 2009 for Brandon Trust. Having been forced to take a significant pay cut (30%ish) and changes in working conditions, there is now an attempt to force her along with the other staff, using the threat of not being paid, to submit her timesheet online although she has never used a computer and has no interest in doing so.
My question is, can they force her to aquire a computer and attend training.
thanks

My guess is that within the ten years modern life will be pretty well impossible without access to a computer and the basic skills to use it. Some would say that we are already there.

Why stand by while your partner deliberately makes her life more difficult through nothing more than stubbornness and bloody-mindedness? Buy her a lap-top, for God's sake, and encourage her to join the 21st century!

She'll thank you in the end...

 

[Scott-Copywriter]

Asking for the timesheet to be submitted online is a reasonable request. However, demanding that an employee buy a computer to do it is not.

If I were your partner, I'd agree to do it, but only if a computer is provided either on-site or at your home free of charge.

I'd also take the training if they offered it. Submitting a timesheet should be a fairly simple process to learn, and more knowledge in any area isn't a bad thing.

 

[Spongebob]

But surely we are fast arriving at the point where everyone is just assumed to have access to a computer, just as it assumed that everyone has a telephone.

Employees are generally expected to phone in if they are not going to be attending work on any particular day. Are they given a telephone for this purpose? No.

If my mother-in-law can learn to use a computer then quite literally anyone can. She is very elderley and house-bound but her lap-top has given her a new lease of life. She's never off the bloody thing!

Life without a computer is going to get inceasingly more difficult and miserable. Does anybody seriously expect there to be any post offices, local bank branches, bookshops or newsagents left in a few years time?

Buy her a lap-top - or just a decent Smartphone.

 

[Scott-Copywriter]

But surely we are fast arriving at the point where everyone is just assumed to have access to a computer, just as it assumed that everyone has a telephone.

Employees are generally expected to phone in if they are not going to be attending work on any particular day. Are they given a telephone for this purpose? No.

If my mother-in-law can learn to use a computer then quite literally anyone can. She is very elderley and house-bound but her lap-top has given her a new lease of life. She's never off the bloody thing!

Life without a computer is going to get inceasingly more difficult and miserable. Does anybody seriously expect there to be any post offices, local bank branches, bookshops or newsagents left in a few years time?

Buy her a lap-top - or just a decent Smartphone.

It is a person's right if they don't want to use a computer. They certainly shouldn't have to fork out £300+ and install home internet access just to submit a timesheet online.

Some people simply get along in life just fine without a computer. They have done for decades and have no intention of changing it. That's entirely their choice which should be respected.

As for local services like banks, post offices and shops, they're going to be around for a LONG while yet. If they ever do vanish entirely (I don't think they will, personally) then it will be decades away at the very earliest.

 

[kate1]

Computer at the library?

 

[bdw]

Employees are generally expected to phone in if they are not going to be attending work on any particular day. Are they given a telephone for this purpose? No.

No one needs training to make a phone call.

.

 

[bdw]

But surely we are fast arriving at the point where everyone is just assumed to have access to a computer, just as it assumed that everyone has a telephone.

Employees are generally expected to phone in if they are not going to be attending work on any particular day. Are they given a telephone for this purpose? No.

There will come a day when it will be safe to assume that everyone uses a computer but it is still a long way off.

.

 

[lockyer]

No one needs training to make a phone call.

.

I think the point he was making was that people are contractually oblidged to "phone in" when sick, yet the employers dont have to provide or buy you a phone.

 

[Scott-Copywriter]

I think the point he was making was that people are contractually oblidged to "phone in" when sick, yet the employers dont have to provide or buy you a phone.

I'd quite like to see what would happen in a situation where an employee can't phone in sick. I actually know of some households where they don't even have a phone. If they ever need to make a call, they use a nearby phonebox.

I don't think it would be a reasonable request to demand that an employee installs a phone in their private home just for that purpose, so I'm not sure how the situation would be resolved.

 

[bdw]

We are drifting into pedantry now. It is generally accepted that people know how to phone and have access to a phone. That will happen with computers but we are not there yet. Until it does happen employers who put conditions like this on employees will have to pick up the tab.

Is she in a union?

.

 

[Jeff FV]

My first observation, and question to the OP, is how did you post on this forum?

Obviously you have access to a computer, could you not help/do your partners online submission?

In general, I don't think it unreasonable to expect to be retrained to submit her time sheet in this way. As an analogy, if a new medical gizmo were invented/introduced that improved the care of the patients, would they object to be trained on that?

But no, I don't think that they should be made to buy/provide their own computer. This may well be a red herring - I'm sure the employer could/would/does supply a workstation at the workplace were timesheets could be entered online and also pay for and arrange for any training needed.

But, as others have said, the time when a computer in every home is the norm can't be far away.

Jeff

 

[Scott-Copywriter]

My first observation, and question to the OP, is how did you post on this forum?

Obviously you have access to a computer, could you not help/do your partners online submission?

I think this is one of those "it's the principle of it" situations instead of a request for any reasonable solution.

 

[easiprint]

The 'assumption' of computer access is the norm these days. Secondary schools are the worst offenders. My daughter gets set all her homework online, and has to do it online. When I questioned the school over this and told them we do not have a computer at home, I got the attitude of its not the schools problem - you'll have to get one.

 

[Adam Loveday]

I know the organisation my partner works for has introduced a similar process for submitting time sheets online, mainly because it reduces inputting errors from paper copy, reduces wage queries and can be collated easily and electronically. They make available a computer on the premesis or suggest using the library for individuals that don't have access to a computer at home. Nobody is forced to buy a laptop.

I don't see the issue here as long as the employer makes provision for the submission of timesheets by way of a computer on site or could be accessed via a library terminal. From a company perspective the right electronic systems and processes can help immensely and give greater leverage with resources - increased profits, time savings, greater efficiency, reduced paper storage etc, easy look-up for queries etc. I'd look at it as a positive step from the employer even though it may appear to be an inconvenience in the short term.

It is a person's right if they don't want to use a computer. They certainly shouldn't have to fork out £300+ and install home internet access just to submit a timesheet online.

Agreed 100%. It's also an individuals right not to have to drive if they don't want to, however, in most cases it may be detrimental to or restrict their lifechoices if they don't. Given that computers are used in just about every work environment in some capacity - stock control, accounts, admin, wages, resourcing, internal comms, training etc - exercising the 'right' not to use one could be very restrictive

 

[anenome6]

Coming from the world of health and social care myself I can say that no one in it is immune from having to enter the 21st century and use computers.

I ran a project to introduce computerised records in a council social services department in 2004. We had a few people then saying "we dont see why we should use one" but that has long gone now. You wont be employable if you do not have some ability or at least willingness to learn basic computer use. My Dad is 88 and still works, and learned to use computers for vehicle testing, so there is no excuse.

Strictly speaking it would be fair for the employer to say you must submit online but we will provide you with a computer, or access to one. I do not think she has a leg to stand on if she refuses the training. All jobs change and it is a reasonable expectation that employees accept training. Could there not be a compromise whereby she gets to use the office computer?

However the world of work is getting rougher and less fair, and it would not surprise me if they said do it or else. AT the very least it will mark you out as awkward and that is not a good thing in today's job market. If there are redundancies around it would probably put you first in line.

 

[Scott-Copywriter]

Agreed 100%. It's also an individuals right not to have to drive if they don't want to, however, in most cases it may be detrimental to or restrict their lifechoices if they don't. Given that computers are used in just about every work environment in some capacity - stock control, accounts, admin, wages, resourcing, internal comms, training etc - exercising the 'right' not to use one could be very restrictive

The key difference is whether this sort of requirement is made clear from the start, or whether it's introduced after the decision is made.

For example, if a job advert says "driving license required" then someone can decide whether they fit that criteria before they take the job or position. However, if someone has been in a job for a few years, then an employer says "you now need a drivers license" then it's a rather unfair request.

This is the sort of thing unions are for. I hate it when people use unions and strikes to change terms and conditions which were laid out when they took the job, but it's right to use them when an employee moves the goalposts from the original agreement.

 

[bdw]

when an employee moves the goalposts from the original agreement.

I take it you meant employer?

.

 

[Rhyl Lightworks]

Things change, and if some-one has been in a job 30 years, it is not fair to most employers to expect them to do the job now as was done 30 years ago. (Many years ago, someone who was up against me for a job said that he had 35 year's experience doing it. I replied there was a difference between having 35 year's experience and 1 year's experience 35 times.)

This is where many unions expect their employees to get extra money for doing something which a new employee would take as the norm, and where many unions get a bad name. The use of computers is one (very big) example. I don't think it is unreasonable to expect an employee to use a computer for the simplest tasks such as inputting data although An employee should not be expected to buy a computer for this purpose. As has already been said, there will be computers to use at the place of work and if they prefer not to use these, a public library could also be used.

Barrie

 

[bdw]

As has already been said, there will be computers to use at the place of work and if they prefer not to use these, a public library could also be used.

I still think it is unreasonable to expect an employee to find a public library that is open at a convenient time and to use their own time to go there and submit the time sheet.

.

 

[internetspaceships]

I still think it is unreasonable to expect an employee to find a public library that is open at a convenient time and to use their own time to go there and submit the time sheet.

.

Well we're really dragging the bottom with regards to credibility on this thread and that's not aimed at BDW at all.

Bearing in mind the age we live in, is it utterly unreasonable to suggest that the employee has friends at work too?

Friends with computers perhaps?

 

[simon field]

The no-nonsense approach is the route I favour too.

 

[Spongebob]

The no-nonsense approach is the route I favour too.

Absoluteley.

The world changes - fast. It always has done.

Those who adapt survive. Those who don't die. I have zero sympathy with people who cannot understand these basic truths and just get on with it.

 

[Lucan Unlordly]

I think there would be less reason for complaint if the employee was asked to get a computer to plan their work, carry out training, compile reports but it's a bit of overkill to expect somebody to get kitted out, undergo training etc., just to submit a time sheet!:|

 

[bdw]

I think there would be less reason for complaint if the employee was asked to get a computer to plan their work, carry out training, compile reports but it's a bit of overkill to expect somebody to get kitted out, undergo training etc., just to submit a time sheet!:|

Precisely! Let's put this in perspective folks.

It is a time sheet we are talking about! Have any of you ever had to submit a time sheet? It is not rocket science. It is just a sheet of paper for goodness sake. It the employers want to automate this then it is up to them to facilitate it.

Remember what was said in the original post ...

there is now an attempt to force her along with the other staff, using the threat of not being paid

It is not one person we are talking about here. She is not alone. What kind of a company would subject their employees to this sort of treatment?

Anyway, the answer is simple, legally they would not be allowed to hold back wages if challenged. And that is the bottom line.

.

 

[internetspaceships]

Precisely! Let's put this in perspective folks.

It is a time sheet we are talking about! Have any of you ever had to submit a time sheet? It is not rocket science. It is just a sheet of paper for goodness sake. It the employers want to automate this then it is up to them to facilitate it.

Remember what was said in the original post ...It is not one person we are talking about here. She is not alone. What kind of a company would subject their employees to this sort of treatment?

Anyway, the answer is simple, legally they would not be allowed to hold back wages if challenged. And that is the bottom line.

.

Yeah. I'd suggest a strike in favour of our backward brothers and sisters who, instead of finding a way to make it work, will look for reasons to have rights to NOT make it work.

 

[Nuno]

Anyway, the answer is simple, legally they would not be allowed to hold back wages if challenged. And that is the bottom line.

.

I'm sure The Brandon Trust will be aware of the legal position regarding withholding wages. However that is not the bottom line.
The bottom line is whether the change, with all the costs it incurs be they direct or indirect, changes the net profit or loss.
Losing some staff due to personal recalcitrance, and employing new ones might be worthwhile in a concern which employs 2000 people.
De jure, (in law) you are right: an employee can't be made to buy a computer, and training time and usage time will be in their working hours, De facto, (in fact), if they don't comply there are plenty out there who will.
In this particular instance it might be that by not complying the employee is diverting funds away from the core operation; the care of people with learning disabilities. Rightly or wrongly this will diminish sympathy for her position.

 

[Lucan Unlordly]

Yeah. I'd suggest a strike in favour of our backward brothers and sisters who, instead of finding a way to make it work, will look for reasons to have rights to NOT make it work.

It's the employers job to make it work not the employees.

 

[Vectis]

It's the employers job to make it work not the employees.

And likewise it's not the employees job be obstructive.


I think it's very possible that in the OP's case, they probably do actually have access to a computer, whether this is at home, at a friends, at a public library etc etc etc, but that there is an objection in principle to being told to do this.

As has already been pointed out, the partner (the OP) obviously has access to a computer to post his/her query on here and obviously has the time to do so, whether at work or at home. Why can't he/she help the partner out and use the computer to send the time sheet? It just seems to be bloody mindedness on their part that they are refusing to do so.

 

[bdw]

And the others that are in the same position?

 

[Employment Law Clinic]

My partner has been in the caring profession for 22yrs, with the NHS then a healthcare trust and from Feb 2009 for Brandon Trust. Having been forced to take a significant pay cut (30%ish) and changes in working conditions


My question is, can they force her to aquire a computer and attend training.
thanks

lanny seems to have given up interest in this thread, perhaps because they didn't like the answers being posted.

I'm dubious as to whether the partner is being forced (or perhaps even required) to acquire a computer, as no-one can force you to take a 30% pay cut or changes to working conditions, options will always exist... except apparently for the OP's partner.


The question regarding using a computer for work purposes, attending training for this, is very well established. If memory serves correctly, it was the Inland Revenue that introduced computers in the early 80s, and (despite not being a typical luddite or militant union) the IRSF trade union resisted them. The union lost the case.

There's probably been more case law since then, but the introduction of new equipment is open to an employer, and employees have to fit in with that.



Karl Limpert

 

[bdw]

The question regarding using a computer for work purposes, attending training for this, is very well established. If memory serves correctly, it was the Inland Revenue that introduced computers in the early 80s, and (despite not being a typical luddite or militant union) the IRSF trade union resisted them. The union lost the case.There's probably been more case law since then, but the introduction of new equipment is open to an employer, and employees have to fit in with that.

I have been using PCs since about 1984 and I have experience of employees resisting their use but that was where the employer was providing them. The Inland Revenue would categorically not have won their case had they been trying to force their employees to buy their own PCs.

.

 

[Employment Law Clinic]

The Inland Revenue would categorically not have won their case had they been trying to force their employees to buy their own PCs.

I entirely agree with you Bryan. However, this thread is about an employer that has already "forced" a pay cut of 30%, and other changes in working conditions.

I suspect they're forcing ownership of a PC as much as the OP is engaging in this thread.


The partner works in the health service. Are they seriously trying to suggest there is no access to a computer at work?



Karl Limpert

 

[bdw]

As you say the OP seems to have left us to talk amongst ourselves so there's no real point in continuing.

It was also posted here ,http://www.ukbusinessforums.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?p=2047812#post2047812 but no comments has been made for several days.

 

[presterjohn]

My guess is that within the ten years modern life will be pretty well impossible without access to a computer and the basic skills to use it. Some would say that we are already there.

Why stand by while your partner deliberately makes her life more difficult through nothing more than stubbornness and bloody-mindedness? Buy her a lap-top, for God's sake, and encourage her to join the 21st century!

She'll thank you in the end...

What a horrendous point of view. Older people struggle with tech we all know that and the poor women has just had her wages slashed. Where is this laptop money coming from?

The reality is that if her company has any sense they will supply the use of a desktop computer for inputting details (in the work place) and a junior member of staff to lend a hand until they are getting used to the new system.

 

[Employment Law Clinic]

Older people struggle with tech we all know that

Yes, older people do struggle with tech, including my 70yo mother, who didn't really like her iPod touch, but still actively & very competently uses her iPad, laptop, desktop, mobile phone, etc.

and the poor women has just had her wages slashed.

Yes, we know she was forced to accept a 30% wage cut that any employee could refuse to accept - so that wasn't really forced.

The reality is that if her company has any sense they will supply the use of a desktop computer for inputting details (in the work place) and a junior member of staff to lend a hand until they are getting used to the new system.

And this is more likely what is happening, with proper training, not some junior member of staff lending a hand. The OP couldn't say that though, as that would take away the thrust of their grievance.



Karl Limpert

 

[davek17]

I have to say i'm a little shocked at the attitudes of many people on here towards fellow human beings that look after our infrimed and elderly. The attitudes on here seem to me so corporate in nature and not the innovative, fresh entreprenerial thinking I have come to expect from people on here. People are the only difference these days in a bland world of process and cost cutting. It does not make sense any longer to treat employees like this.

I had this issue at a rather large US based IT company about 10 years ago when they made everyone "Mobile". THe would not pay for a single thing, unyet they took away all the central office costs. Now we all had laptops but not everyone had broadband, and even those that did felt it was unfair for the company to expect free use of this. The result was we challenged them and they had to pay for the BB connection. We also had rights to not use our home phones for business unless paid for which was a pain because many people did not get signal on their mobile phones at home.

I think asking someone to buy a computer under threat of not getting paid is not only illegal but it's totally and utterly unethical and the people involved in this should be ashamed of themselves and you should contact the NHS about it.

Stick to your guns, get the rest of the employees together and fight back. at least you'll be living your life through strength, not fear!

Hope to have helped!