Europe should we stay in or get out?

[Scott-Copywriter]

Here's an interesting opinion piece from David Mitchell which has a different take on the EU Referendum.

http://www.theguardian.com/commenti...rliament-leaders-david-cameron-david-mitchell

Thoughts, anyone?

A lot of the points he raised do make sense. A public referendum is perceived as the most democratic approach, and it tends to go down well with the public, but it undoubtedly allows our elected leaders to sidestep the responsibility of leading the country and making the big decisions.

Our politicians cherry-picking the decisions they want to make, and then pushing the largest decisions back on to the public, who they can then blame if it all goes pear-shaped, does appear to undermine our political system.

As David Mitchell put it:

“Let us be captain of the ship but we’ll negotiate the most lethal reefs by holding a steering vote among the passengers.”

 

[boring-friday]

I'm simply stating that uncontrolled EU immigration has been beneficial to the UK economy overall.

Is it absolutely perfect? No. No system ever is. However, the question is whether leaving the EU and taking the many negative impacts of an exit is a price worth paying for more immigration control. That's for individual voters to decide, but immigration is only a very small part of the picture of an EU exit.

Plus, as I mentioned before, leaving the EU is absolutely no guarantee that we will be able to pick and choose who we want. With such an overwhelmingly pro-EU Government, and with the EU's single market being an integral part of our existing trade, there's a very high likelihood that we'll just join the EEA and still be obliged by the free movement of goods, services and people.

I would take the suggestions of Brexit campaigners with a pinch of salt. They have a big voice in this referendum but very little power in Parliament, where post-EU decisions will be made. Anyone who is voting to leave on the assumption that we'll be able to just "close our borders" are mistaken. There's a very good chance that EU immigration will remain as it is, and it will do nothing regarding the 180,000+ net migration of non-EU citizens every year (which we have control over right now and have done this entire time).

I really doubt we'll still allow free movement if we leave the EU unless Dave/George wants half of ukip sat near him at the next election.
Expect a large chunk of people voting out are doing so mostly because they don't want 'Wojtek and Bartek stealing their jobs'

And yeah true except for the millions of non-EU citizens who go via Germany first

 

[Newchodge]

I really doubt we'll still allow free movement if we leave the EU unless Dave/George wants half of ukip sat near him at the next election.
Expect a large chunk of people voting out are doing so mostly because they don't want 'Wojtek and Bartek stealing their jobs'

And yeah true except for the millions of non-EU citizens who go via Germany first

Do you really think 'we' will have a choice?

 

[Scott-Copywriter]

I really doubt we'll still allow free movement if we leave the EU unless Dave/George wants half of ukip sat near him at the next election.

I would say there's a very high likelihood of joining the EEA, so the free movement of people will remain.

What we must remember here is that this is only a referendum on whether we should leave. This isn't a referendum on what we should do after we've left.

Despite the current loud voices of Nigel Farage, Boris Johnson and the like, the UK Parliament is still overwhelmingly pro-EU, and they will hold complete power over the path we take if we leave.

Sure, joining the EEA might annoy Brexit supporters of the anti-immigrant stance, but the Government's overwhelming priority will be to keep the economy stable, remove uncertainty and maintain the status quo for British businesses.

The quickest, easiest and most beneficial path to achieve that by far is through EEA membership.

As far as trade and investment from the EU goes, the EU/EEA single market cannot be bettered. It is 100% tariff and restriction free. The rules of accessing the single market are also clearly defined and exemplified by Norway and Switzerland: you pay into the budget, you abide by single market regulations, and you allow the free movement of goods, services and people.

There's a good reason why Norway and Switzerland, despite staying out of the EU, still joined the EEA.

 

[boring-friday]

I would say there's a very high likelihood of joining the EEA, so the free movement of people will remain.

What we must remember here is that this is only a referendum on whether we should leave. This isn't a referendum on what we should do after we've left.

Despite the current loud voices of Nigel Farage, Boris Johnson and the like, the UK Parliament is still overwhelmingly pro-EU, and they will hold complete power over the path we take if we leave.

Sure, joining the EEA might annoy Brexit supporters of the anti-immigrant stance, but the Government's overwhelming priority will be to keep the economy stable, remove uncertainty and maintain the status quo for British businesses.

The quickest, easiest and most beneficial path to achieve that by far is through EEA membership.

As far as trade and investment from the EU goes, the EU/EEA single market cannot be bettered. It is 100% tariff and restriction free. The rules of accessing the single market are also clearly defined and exemplified by Norway and Switzerland: you pay into the budget, you abide by single market regulations, and you allow the free movement of goods, services and people.

There's a good reason why Norway and Switzerland, despite staying out of the EU, still joined the EEA.

Well maybe they'll change the rules for us, who knows.
Regardless I'm not going to vote to stay in when I hate free movement because some politicians will want to stay in the EEA anyway, not a very good reason is it.

Yeah I guess the trade deal with the EU is really good but still I'm left rather selling something to someone outside the EU as then I don't have to pay vat
Shame the EU doesn't buy as much from us as we buy from them really I guess or it might of worked out better for us.

 

[Scott-Copywriter]

Well maybe they'll change the rules for us, who knows.

They won't for one simple reason:

If the UK can just leave the EU and gain the exact same benefits as being a member without the key requirements enforced on other nations, then other countries in the EU will start to wonder why they are remaining as members.

Whilst the EU will bend the rules a bit to accommodate key nations, they cannot completely undermine the point of the European Union. If we leave and end up with a better EU-related deal than we have by being a member, it triggers a big risk of other members wanting to leave as well.

Purely for self-preservation, the EU must always maintain at least some sort of "exclusive" benefit of EU membership. There must be reasons for nations to remain in.

 

[KM-Tiger]

Brexit supporters of the anti-immigrant stance

Those are weasel words. The same sort of nonsense that has been used to label UKIP supporters as racist.

The vast majority of Brexit supporters are not "anti-immigrant" at all. They are against uncontrolled immigration. A quite different idea.

 

[Scott-Copywriter]

Those are weasel words. The same sort of nonsense that has been used to label UKIP supporters as racist.

The vast majority of Brexit supporters are not "anti-immigrant" at all. They are against uncontrolled immigration. A quite different idea.

I didn't say, at any point, that the vast majority of Brexit supporters are anti-immigrant. I said this:

Sure, joining the EEA might annoy Brexit supporters of the anti-immigrant stance

Which is completely true. The Brexit supporters out there who do believe in completely sealing the borders, however many there may be, will be rather annoyed at the concept of EEA membership.

 

[MBE1]

The UK gaining trade deals as part of the EU:

GDP - $16.2 trillion
Population - 500million

The UK on its own:

GDP - $2.8trillion
Population - 64million

Please read this carefully and tell me, how are we supposed to negotiate more favourable trade deals with world economies by ourselves compared to being part of the EU?

The EU has not made any major trade deals in the last 20 odd years with any major economical power around the world, which means 100% benefit from such deals with minor countries, such as Palestine. 100% of very little is very little.

Regarding the above figures, GDP and population have very little to do with the end trade agreement, it might provide a starting point in some peoples eyes, but trade deals are down to negotiation, nothing else. Only yourself seems to think a faster deal will result in poorer terms, how do you quantify time spent against results?

Using your logic never actually agreeing to a deal would result in a better outcome? So the benefit from no deal over 20 years of negotiation, as per current EU negotiation period on major countries is zero, is a good deal?

Now a deal done in say 10 years independently would result in at least 10 years of some extra benefits, I don't see how your EU version is superior? All this is conjecture, but being outside of the EU does not mean we have no bargaining power, or that we would end up with a worse deal.

Many smaller companies actually buy at better rates than larger ones, down to better negotiation, can you 100% say this could not happen with countries, or that at least as favorable terms would be possible to obtain?

 

[simon field]

And what about these tariffs? The ones where we are penalized for sourcing better quality and cheaper products from the rest of the world?

What's that about?

 

[KM-Tiger]

And what about these tariffs? The ones where we are penalized for sourcing better quality and cheaper products from the rest of the world?

What's that about?

The EU is a customs union, so there is a common external tariff. So we pay around 15% extra for food, for instance, compared to world prices.

There is a strong argument that we would better help emerging economies, eg in Africa, by buying their produce tariff free, rather than sending them aid money which often ends up in the wrong hands.

 

[Scott-Copywriter]

The EU has not made any major trade deals in the last 20 odd years with any major economical power around the world, which means 100% benefit from such deals with minor countries, such as Palestine. 100% of very little is very little.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union–South_Korea_Free_Trade_Agreement

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_Trade_Agreement_between_Mexico_and_the_European_Union

Wrong.

Unless you don't consider the 7th and 11th largest non-EU economies in the world "major"?

Then of course you have the recently announced negotiations with Canada and Singapore, the on-going negotiations with the US, and the eventual negotiation with China where can benefit from the leverage of being in an economy which is 54% larger than China's.

Regarding the above figures, GDP and population have very little to do with the end trade agreement, it might provide a starting point in some peoples eyes, but trade deals are down to negotiation, nothing else. Only yourself seems to think a faster deal will result in poorer terms, how do you quantify time spent against results?

They have everything to do with the end trade agreement. The bigger your market is, the more leverage you have, as your market is more important to them than their market is to you. The larger the population and purchasing power, the larger the potential market for a country's goods and services is.

If you really believe that a China-UK negotiation would be on as equal terms and leverage as a China-EU negotiation, then I really don't know what to say.

Using your logic never actually agreeing to a deal would result in a better outcome? So the benefit from no deal over 20 years of negotiation, as per current EU negotiation period on major countries is zero, is a good deal?

As previously mentioned, you are wrong there. There have been two deals with major non-EU economies during that time, and many dozens of deals with smaller nations where they will accumulate into hundreds of billions of pounds worth of potential trade.

Two of the largest are also yet to come.

Trade negotiations take as long as they take. These agreements will be in force for potentially generations to come, so it's to be expected that they take years to work out. Any UK FTA with any country would be exactly the same.

The China and Australia FTA, for example, took 10 years to negotiate. The ASEAN-India agreement just for goods alone took 6 years to negotiate.

Many smaller companies actually buy at better rates than larger ones, down to better negotiation, can you 100% say this could not happen with countries, or that at least as favorable terms would be possible to obtain?

Do you think free trade negotiations consist of some Del Boy wheeler dealer who can just charm the other party into more favourable agreements or something?

What does "better negotiation" even mean? These are two parties negotiating trade deals worth hundreds of billions of pounds. The numbers, unsurprisingly, are critical.

This video really says it all:

But let me guess, the Professor of Global Economic Governance at Oxford University is wrong about the basic elements of free trade deals, right?

 

[Deleted member 226268]

I thought it was a no brainer and with such a majority of the population wanting to stay in that is what would happen but have just seen a BBC survey that says it's now 39% out 49% stay in.

That's a lot closer than previous surveys and I suspect the momemtum is now in the get out camp and to a lot of peoples surprise I think that is what will happen. I presume the pictures of people breaking in to lorries at Calais doesn't help the stay in camps cause.

Do you care one way or the other. Does it matter to us small businesses? and if so how?

Never trust anything the BBC tells you.
This is the Government backed mouthpiece spouting government lies and propaganda,
feeding us Dumb Sheep "News" in a completely ( Politically Impartial and neutral way ), of course, with a smile.
The world wide reaching news system that even Joseph Goebbels could have only dreamed about.

The question ..... Does staying in matter to us small businesses ?
Is totally and completely irrelevant, in the great scheme of things to come.

It's your whole future way of life at stake, not just your businesses,
and there are actually idiots out there who have been "persuaded" that staying in is the way to go.


This is all we need to know >>>

.

 

[ShirleyM]

For those thinking of voting Remain, I guess your area hasn't suffered a lot of immigration. Our area didn't have much until a couple of years ago, and now you are lucky to hear English being spoken in certain areas. What would happen if 500K, or more, came to the UK every year? It could happen, as the economies of the EU countries are taking a severe nosedive and even western Europeans are heading to our shores in search of work. The fact is, there is nothing we can do, and the EU has made it very clear that freedom of movement is a red line and will never be changed.

Add in the violent 'refugees' that will be pushed our way by Merkel and we may as well pack up and go to somewhere else, as the UK will not be a pleasant place to live. Have you seen the violence imposed on German and Swedish citizens by these young male 'refugees'? Merkels foolishness has brought disaster to all the EU countries but we will all suffer the consequences, so how can you submit rule to to an EU elite that are so reckless and who puts money before their own citizens safety and welfare?

We will take a small knock on our economy when we Brexit, but that will pale in comparison to the knock that will reverberate throughout Europe when the Euro fails. We can prepare for it if we act NOW. The economic case for Remaining has not been made, as they do not look at the economic failure that Remain will bring.

Some people still claim the EU is democratic. When you did you last choose the EU elite based on their manifestos? When did you get to vote for an EU President or the Commissioners. They are the ones who decide which laws to impose upon us and we only find out what these laws are AFTER the event.

However, some things are worth more than money. A life of freedom, democracy, and freedom from fear, is more important. You are giving this away if you vote Remain.

 

[Scott-Copywriter]

For those thinking of voting Remain, I guess your area hasn't suffered a lot of immigration. Our area didn't have much until a couple of years ago, and now you are lucky to hear English being spoken in certain areas. What would happen if 500K, or more, came to the UK every year? It could happen, as the economies of the EU countries are taking a severe nosedive and even western Europeans are heading to our shores in search of work. The fact is, there is nothing we can do, and the EU has made it very clear that freedom of movement is a red line and will never be changed.

Nonsense.

The economies of EU, especially in the East, are growing at a rapid pace. The growth forecast for Romania, for example, is 4.2% this year and 3.7% next year.

The forecast for Poland is 3.7% this year and 3.6% next year.

The forecasts for Hungary, Slovakia, Lithuania are also above UK levels.

The EU is making Europe as a whole wealthier, and the long-running problem of large wealth inequality across Europe is starting to diminish. THAT is how you solve large-scale immigration for good. Closing borders simply plasters over the symptoms, it doesn't solve the cause, and considering we all share this tiny blue dot in space, perhaps it is the cause we should be trying to fix for future generations to come.

Might I also add that more immigrants come from non-EU countries every year compared to EU countries. Tens of thousands of people every year also decide to leave the UK and live elsewhere, including Brits and EU citizens.

Add in the violent 'refugees' that will be pushed our way by Merkel and we may as well pack up and go to somewhere else, as the UK will not be a pleasant place to live. Have you seen the violence imposed on German and Swedish citizens by these young male 'refugees'? Merkels foolishness has brought disaster to all the EU countries but we will all suffer the consequences, so how can you submit rule to to an EU elite that are so reckless and who puts money before their own citizens safety and welfare?

This has nothing to do with the EU. The United States has agreed to accept 10,000 Syrian refugees of their own accord, and they aren't part of the EU.

If we didn't want a humanitarian disaster where people in war-torn countries must flee their homes for fear of death, then perhaps ourselves and the West shouldn't have started bombing their country. Just a thought.

Also, let's not forget the hundreds of thousands of British refugees who fled to other countries during World War 2. It seems we aren't so welcoming when the shoe is on the other foot.

Either way, it makes no difference. Even outside of the EU, we would still accept vetted refugees, and we currently have full border controls in place for that as we're outside the Schengen Area.

Why would we accept vetted refugees? Because it has nothing to do with "Merkel pressure". It's simply about not being evil and looking the other way when over 400,000 people in one country have died, including many children.

We will take a small knock on our economy when we Brexit, but that will pale in comparison to the knock that will reverberate throughout Europe when the Euro fails. We can prepare for it if we act NOW. The economic case for Remaining has not been made, as they do not look at the economic failure that Remain will bring.

There is absolutely zero evidence that the Euro will fail.

Even if it did, what difference would an exit make? We are not part of the Euro currency at all, and we must still heavily trade with the EU. The hundreds of thousands of British businesses involved in EU trade in some form can't just cut off their existing EU trade and decide to trade somewhere else.

If the Eurozone currency failed, it would hit us equally hard whether we are in or out as we haven't adopted the Euro and have a complete opt-out from the Economic and Monetary Union of the European Union.

There is absolutely nothing to suggest that leaving the EU would somehow protect our economy from Euro currency performance. Nothing. If we were part of the EMU then maybe, but we aren't.

Again, though, there is zero evidence that the EU economy will fail. In fact, the thing most likely to cause the most damage to the European economy, and our own, is Brexit.

 

[KM-Tiger]

Again, though, there is zero evidence that the EU economy will fail.

The youth unemployment levels in the Mediterranean countries are acceptable then?

 

[simon field]

It's being propped up with enormous loans. Credit.

We all know what happens when there's too much credit eh?

 

[ShirleyM]

Also, let's not forget the hundreds of thousands of British refugees who fled to other countries during World War 2. It seems we aren't so welcoming when the shoe is on the other foot.

Were they violent? Did they attack the local women? Did they destroy the communities they were placed in?

For a start, few are genuine refugees. The majority are economic migrants and are young single males, not families. For once, I agreed with Cameron that they should be returned to Syria, or whichever homeland they come from, and supported in a safe area there, or even in a neighboring Muslim country.

It is the behaviour of these so-called refugees that causes the problem. It doesn't matter whether they come from Syria, or the Antarctic. We should not invite in anyone who does not respect our western way of life. The devastation and fear they have caused is totally unacceptable. Sweden and Germany are now the rape capitals of the world, thanks to Merkel's undemocratic invitation. The police and press in Germany have been silenced, as happened with the Rotherham grooming gang in the UK. you need to look beyond the main stream media to get a view of what is really happening in the EU.

Many EU countries are calling for their own referendums and many EU citizens are hoping Brexit will pave the way.

 

[Scott-Copywriter]

The youth unemployment levels in the Mediterranean countries are acceptable then?

The EU average is 19.4%. That's not too far away from the UK's youth unemployment rate of 13.4%. Not sure how that implies the Eurozone economy will fail.

 

[Scott-Copywriter]

It's being propped up with enormous loans. Credit.

We all know what happens when there's too much credit eh?

That applies to every country.

Debt is not a problem. It only becomes a problem when you can't afford to repay it. Whilst some EU countries are in difficulty, such as Greece, the broader eurozone is healthy.

The eurozone's debt-to-GDP is 90.7%. That is lower than the United States debt-to-GDP of 104%, Japan's whopping debt-to-GDP of 229%, and only slightly higher than the UK's figure of 89.2%.

Germany, one of the economically healthiest countries in the world, still has a debt-to-GDP ratio of 71.2%.

The eurozone is financially strong and isn't even close to failing. It's why the EU has a credit rating of AA+, which is the second highest grade you can get and is described as "very strong capacity to meet its financial commitments."

 

[KM-Tiger]

The EU average is 19.4%.

Which disguises the fact Greece, Spain, Italy and some others have rates close to 50%, and have been for quite some time. I believe Greece was up to 60% back in 2013.

I would describe that as a failing economy. And worse, it's a human tragedy. A whole generation betrayed by the EU that is "so good for jobs".

 

[simon field]

In this country - from what I can see - what used to be one job has now been made into two, or even three jobs. Which helps enormously with the unemployment figures.

 

[Scott-Copywriter]

Also, let's not forget the hundreds of thousands of British refugees who fled to other countries during World War 2. It seems we aren't so welcoming when the shoe is on the other foot.

Were they violent? Did they attack the local women? Did they destroy the communities they were placed in?

Some probably were, yes.

Do you not realise that the bad eggs are just a tiny fraction of the overall number of refugees? I mean we are literally talking a fraction of a percent here. The vast, vast majority are just normal people and normal families, like you and me, who are fleeing war zones.

Please don't tell me you are that blinded by the Daily Mail rhetoric. It's classic media negativity bias. You will hear all about the 0.1% who do bad things and nothing about the 99.9% who are happy and peaceful because it isn't an interesting enough story to sell newspapers.

For a start, few are genuine refugees. The majority are economic migrants and are young single males, not families. For once, I agreed with Cameron that they should be returned to Syria, or whichever homeland they come from, and supported in a safe area there, or even in a neighboring Muslim country.

And the economic migrants won't get into to the UK.

We are not part of the Schengen Area and we never will be. That's why we have volunteered to take in refugees, but we are carefully vetting them and only taking them from Syrian UN camps under the Vulnerable Persons Relocation scheme.

That's the thing about seeking asylum. You can only do it once you're in the country you want to apply in and have a valid reason which grants approval. As an island out of the Schengen Area, that's extremely difficult to do.

This is why there are migrant camps in Calais. And yes, that problem will still persist whether we are in the EU or out. If anything, that problem will get worse, because outside the EU, France will be far less inclined to police their side of the border. If there's no longer any EU cooperation, why should they continue to spend so much money preventing migrants from entering the UK?

And just to cover all bases, the UK has opted-out of the EU's Common European Asylum System, so who we take in, and how many we take in, is entirely at the UK Government's discretion. We have also opted-out of the law which allows people of refugee status to move freely within the EU after living here legally for at least 5 years.

 

[KM-Tiger]

And the economic migrants won't get into to the UK.

They will once they have EU passports.

 

[Scott-Copywriter]

Which disguises the fact Greece, Spain, Italy and some others have rates close to 50%, and have been for quite some time. I believe Greece was up to 60% back in 2013.

I would describe that as a failing economy. And worse, it's a human tragedy. A whole generation betrayed by the EU that is "so good for jobs".

Except it isn't a failing economy at all. In the UK, Middlesbrough, Barnsley and Glasgow have youth unemployment rates of over 25%. Does that mean that the entire UK economy is failing?

Countries like Greece had big problems before they even joined the Euro, with huge debts and inflation levels. They also had overly generous pension systems and huge tax avoidance problems. The EU did not cause it. Far from it.

The question is how much worse certain countries would be if the eurozone didn't give them financial support. Youth unemployment might have been 70%, 80% or 90%, and a default on debts would have hit the whole global economy hard including the UK.

 

[Scott-Copywriter]

They will once they have EU passports.

Except they won't get EU passports because economic migrants are not being granted asylum. Germany's acceptance rate recently, for example, is 40%, meaning that 60% are turned back.

Even then, asylum seekers granted residency are still not allowed into the UK because they must be formal citizens of an EU country with a passport, and gaining the right to residency is VERY different to gaining citizenship.

 

[evdstap]

I believe that this referendum should have never been held. This is a Tory project that it's leading to a very divisive atmosphere in the country and maybe even a departure from the EU. From a business perspective a Brexit can only spell disaster. Just when many businesses are recovering from the previous crash we risk causing the next one. The strong feelings amongst Eurosceptic Tories has resulted in a total disregard of factual information and in turn in a tit for tat battle of lies and scaremongering. The result of that is that ordinary folk don't know what to believe anymore and are therefore very susceptible to emotional arguments and soundbytes. Who does not want to be free, independent and sovereign? Trouble is: not many people understand how those concepts translate into what we have today and what we might have if we leave. Add some large foreigner movements into the mix and a bit of German bashing, Hitler, why not, and the whole discussion is flawed
God knows what will happen in 23rd. One thing is certain, though: if we leave the consequences for our economy will be dire. Leave campaigners may point out the rosy skies being the EU, but they are still very far away and even if all those 88% of economists are in on the Remain conspiracy, that won't make a difference. Economies are made or broken by trust and confidence. The 2009 crash did not happen because from one day to the next we ran out of money; it happened because economists realised that we were living on borrowed means, so the trust and confidence got dented and that resulted in a downward spiral, with the consequences well known. All those economists that now say a Brexit will be a disaster will not change their minds all of a sudden if we do decide to leave. This will be a self fulfilling prophecy. Sterling will crash, investment will crash, money will leave the country, the 2009 crash will seem like a small starter compared to this main course.

Tory Eurosceptics will be fine, they have enough fat around the waist to withstand that famine and they've finally got what they want. UKIP will be fine; they will use the resulting austerity for a bit of extra foreigner bashing. Businesses will suffer; many will not survive. Jobs will disappear, but who is there to complain to? There's no warranty on this purchase I'm afraid.

Would we be better off outside the EU longer term? I can't tell you that, nobody can. What I do know is that for many years we will NOT be able to do anything about immigration, because we'll have to salvage whatever we can from the wreckage and at least be member of the EEA, with the inevitable condition of free movement of people. We will NOT get more sovereignty, whatever the hell that means to voters. We will NOT be more or less secure and safe, because
our security practices will not change. So we'll pay a dear price for no delivery.

I run a business and I'm VERY concerned about the outcome of this referendum. I'm not sure what my backup plan can be, other than to move the business abroad, even though I'll lose all my experiences British staff. That would be a sad day

 

[evdstap]

They will once they have EU passports.

They will not get EU passports if they are economic migrants.

 

[evdstap]

I would say there's a very high likelihood of joining the EEA, so the free movement of people will remain.

What we must remember here is that this is only a referendum on whether we should leave. This isn't a referendum on what we should do after we've left.

Despite the current loud voices of Nigel Farage, Boris Johnson and the like, the UK Parliament is still overwhelmingly pro-EU, and they will hold complete power over the path we take if we leave.

Sure, joining the EEA might annoy Brexit supporters of the anti-immigrant stance, but the Government's overwhelming priority will be to keep the economy stable, remove uncertainty and maintain the status quo for British businesses.

The quickest, easiest and most beneficial path to achieve that by far is through EEA membership.

As far as trade and investment from the EU goes, the EU/EEA single market cannot be bettered. It is 100% tariff and restriction free. The rules of accessing the single market are also clearly defined and exemplified by Norway and Switzerland: you pay into the budget, you abide by single market regulations, and you allow the free movement of goods, services and people.

There's a good reason why Norway and Switzerland, despite staying out of the EU, still joined the EEA.

The only snag is that our membership of the EEA must be approved unanimously by the EEA and that, in the current climate, may be quite a sizeable obstacle. If that does NOT happen, God forbid what will happen to our economy

 

[evdstap]

I am interested to hear from business colleagues what their thoughts are on the subject of the so called "Red Tape". I have talked about this issue a lot with colleagues in networking and breakfast meetings and I get the idea that it isn't really a problem, certainly not one of the EU. There are some businesses that have been able to show me convincingly that they have to comply with EU regulations despite that fact that they only export to the US for example, but that has been very rare. Otherwise, the examples I was given were of regulations that are either strictly UK, or gold plated by the UK, or were worse before we joined the EU (or would have been if we had not joined). The only industry where I found very fierce resistance to EU rules was the pesticides sector, but I'm not sure how much I accepted the "free for all" call from them.

Let me know IF you think the EU puts an unnecessary regulations burden on businesses, and, if so, WHAT regulations you feel are unnecessarily adding to the costs of your business or are preventing you to do things you would otherwise do to the benefit of your business.

 

[Newchodge]

Famously the last government wanted to get rid of red tape to help small businesses. they sked small businesses what red tape they wanted rid of, and nothing came of it.

 

[ShirleyM]

@evdstap - How on earth did you find the courage to start your own business? You sound like a frightened rabbit. Have you no faith in the British people or British businesses. We can stand on our own feet.

Personally, I think this referendum is well overdue and could be the saving of the UK. People have no hope these days. This referendum will give them the fighting spirit that the EU has drained out of them. You are not being asked to sacrifice your life as happened in WW1 & WW11, but they have the same end goal, ie. a free, democratic country that is not ruled by a foreign power.

I will be very disappointed if we agree to revert to the EEA. We don't need it and we don't want uncontrolled immigration. We want controlled point scored immigration.

I've been chatting with a Business Consultant today, and he is still recruiting and assisting businesses to grow. He has seen no adverse effects at all, and his first big project starts on the 1st July, regardless of the outcome of this referendum.

The EU is a stinking pile of corruption and they will rule it with a rod of iron. All the 'carrots' seem to be disappearing and they threaten with the 'stick' more frequently now if anyone dares defy them. Example: 250,000 Euro fine for every refugee refused entry.

 

[evdstap]

Famously the last government wanted to get rid of red tape to help small businesses. they asked small businesses what red tape they wanted rid of, and nothing came of it.

Hang on, let's be a bit more specific here, because there was a task force in the EU, on the request of the UK, to look at simplifying regulations for small businesses in particular. Things have been achieved to help small businesses, such as small claims procedures in the EU, a specific organisation for small business standards, a small business portal, a specific Small Business Act, etc. It may be too early days to see real effects from that, but rather than just dumping a flat statement here that "nothing came of it". Some of the specifics in the report have been or are being addressed, such as easier REACH rules, removing barriers to help young people into work, probably others, but I'm not an expert

 

[Newchodge]

For a start, few are genuine refugees. The majority are economic migrants and are young single males, not families. For once, I agreed with Cameron that they should be returned to Syria, or whichever homeland they come from, and supported in a safe area there, or even in a neighboring Muslim country.

It is the behaviour of these so-called refugees that causes the problem. It doesn't matter whether they come from Syria, or the Antarctic. We should not invite in anyone who does not respect our western way of life. The devastation and fear they have caused is totally unacceptable. Sweden and Germany are now the rape capitals of the world, thanks to Merkel's undemocratic invitation. The police and press in Germany have been silenced, as happened with the Rotherham grooming gang in the UK. you need to look beyond the main stream media to get a view of what is really happening in the EU.

Many EU countries are calling for their own referendums and many EU citizens are hoping Brexit will pave the way.

Oh My God. these nasty dark coloured foreigners are coming here for the sole purpose of raping our white women. And the EU wants to help them do it. I never realised.

Get a grip, woman.

 

[Newchodge]

Hang on, let's be a bit more specific here, because there was a task force in the EU, on the request of the UK, to look at simplifying regulations for small businesses in particular. Things have been achieved to help small businesses, such as small claims procedures in the EU, a specific organisation for small business standards, a small business portal, a specific Small Business Act, etc. It may be too early days to see real effects from that, but rather than just dumping a flat statement here that "nothing came of it". Some of the specifics in the report have been or are being addressed, such as easier REACH rules, removing barriers to help young people into work, probably others, but I'm not an expert

Sorry, I wasn't clear. Nothing came of it because few small businesses identified red tape that was causing them problems.

 

[evdstap]

@evdstap - How on earth did you find the courage to start your own business? You sound like a frightened rabbit. Have you no faith in the British people or British businesses. We can stand on our own feet.

Personally, I think this referendum is well overdue and could be the saving of the UK. People have no hope these days. This referendum will give them the fighting spirit that the EU has drained out of them. You are not being asked to sacrifice your life as happened in WW1 & WW11, but they have the same end goal, ie. a free, democratic country that is not ruled by a foreign power.

I will be very disappointed if we agree to revert to the EEA. We don't need it and we don't want uncontrolled immigration. We want controlled point scored immigration.

I've been chatting with a Business Consultant today, and he is still recruiting and assisting businesses to grow. He has seen no adverse effects at all, and his first big project starts on the 1st July, regardless of the outcome of this referendum.

The EU is a stinking pile of corruption and they will rule it with a rod of iron. All the 'carrots' seem to be disappearing and they threaten with the 'stick' more frequently now if anyone dares defy them. Example: 250,000 Euro fine for every refugee refused entry.

Are you running a business? And if so, what kind of business, if I may ask? Your polemics about freedom and democracy would suggest that it is more likely that you are politically engaged. Particularly since you repeat a lot of the standard soundbytes, without putting these into a business environment ("the EU is a stinking.........defy them" - doesn't really demonstrate any desire to link that to your business and the effect on it).

You politicise the economic environment after a potential Brexit by jumping straight onto migration and even claim that you hope we do not adopt the EEA model. Have you given any thought to what that may mean for our economy? If I did not take risks I would not be in business, but running a business is about responsible risk taking, not callous gambling.

 

[simon field]

Well, whatever happens it looks like a close call. I like to think that the anti-establishment views of many voters will prevail - I will laugh like anything if Dodgy Dave & his mates suffer a backfire after ramming their daily nonsense down people's throats. Nobody I know wants to perpetuate this baloney!

In any case, it'll be a non-event. Remember 'The Millenium Bug'?

 

[Newchodge]

the Millennium Bug may have caused problems which never materialised. Preparing for those potential problems was the safe option.

Brexit may precipitate the worst recession this country has ever known. Or it may not. Bremain means more of the same as now. I know which is the safe option.

 

[evdstap]

Well, whatever happens it looks like a close call. I like to think that the anti-establishment views of many voters will prevail - I will laugh like anything if Dodgy Dave & his mates suffer a backfire after ramming their daily nonsense down people's throats. Nobody I know wants to perpetuate this baloney!

In any case, it'll be a non-event. Remember 'The Millenium Bug'?

The Leave camp is as much part of the Establishment, as you call it, as the Remain camp; Dodgy Dave, Greedy George, Bonkers Boris and Misleading Michael are all from the same nest.

But this is a business forum, not a Facebook campaign, so I'd like to stick to things that affect business and jobs. On what basis do you claim that this will be a non-event? This is hardly comparable to the millennium bug. If it was, we could protect ourselves against it

 

[simon field]

Ask @The Byre, he'll enlighten you. I'm off out to a regulated concert