Europe should we stay in or get out?

[Scott-Copywriter]

Nothing directly to do with the current Brexit issue, or not, but because we have allowed our politicians to give everything we had
away, over just a few decades, we are now almost totally dependent on the E.U.

China and other developing nations have managed to rise, in the same economic world, and recession, it is the E.U. holding us back
from hope of recovery, not allowing us free trade with other nations of the World, outside the E.U.

If we don't free ourselves from the E.U. restrictions, now, while we have a chance, this will never happen, and we will become just another,
and insignificant, small region of the Euro-state, with no influence at all, and no further hope of any independence.

We are not dependent on the EU because of some super-state conspiracy theory. We are merely dependent because we have chosen to conduct a lot of trade with our European partners, which was further encouraged by the single market which made this trade much cheaper and easier.

It's just basic global trade. We import and we export, and we are more inclined to do this with our neighbours especially when they are some of the world's largest economies.

Please list the exact regulations you are talking about which currently stifle the UK economy with no discernible benefit. If your viewpoint on this is so strong, then I would expect you to know the specific names of the regulations which are blunting our economic growth.

Trade with the world has already been discussed in this thread. As part of the EU, we can trade with the deals negotiated by the EU, with dozens already done, dozens more in the process and some of the largest still to go. A handy benefit is that these have been negotiated with the EU's immense bargaining power as the world's 2nd largest economy only to the US, so these deals are very favourable to all EU members including ourselves.

In the EU, we are at no risk of having FTA terms dictated to us by far, far larger economies where, outside of the EU, we would need them more than they need us.

 

[Deleted member 59730]

If we vote leave we will win the Euro Cup, our cricket teams will never again lose a match and Hamilton will be world champion for the next 5 years.

 

[Newchodge]

If we vote leave we will win the Euro Cup, our cricket teams will never again lose a match and Hamilton will be world champion for the next 5 years.

Well, yes, but apart from that what will leaving the EU do for us? (with apologies to Monty Python)

 

[Scott-Copywriter]

Where the EU will restrict us from getting trade deals of our own, and even if we get EU trade deals there will be trade offs where the UK gets a less good deal so that France can have special rules for pate de foie gras (as example) included, or something that won't help the UK at all?

Good luck trying to get a better deal negotiating on our own with superpower economies 4 to 6 times larger than us.

In terms of economic size ratio, the UK negotiating with the US is the equivalent of Nigeria negotiating with the UK.

In that situation, which country would you expect to have the greater leverage in getting the best deal for itself, the UK or Nigeria? Which side would be more likely to dictate the terms?

 

[Deleted member 59730]

In terms of economic size ratio, the UK negotiating with the US is the equivalent of Nigeria negotiating with the UK.

In that situation, which country would you expect to have the greater leverage in getting the best deal for itself, the UK or Nigeria? Which side would be more likely to dictate the terms?

Well, we actually know the answer to that one. Despite Nigeria being a member of the Commonwealth back in the 70s they were defaulting on imports of everything from cement to telephone exchanges. The UK tried to get them to see sense and behave in a responsible manner to no avail. Only when the EU brought pressure to bear with sanctions did Nigeria get their act together.

 

[ShirleyM]

All other countries also have import and export regulations which will restrict us far more than the EU restrictions.

Regulations which we already meet and we trade with many of these countries without a trade agreement in place. Imagine the boost a bilateral trade agreement could give.

The human right law is a joke, but guess what, we aren't even allowed to deport them back to EU countries at times because their prisons aren't as good as ours. We will end up with the dregs of the world in our prisons. Maybe we should downgrade our prisons to the lowest common denominator and then we can deport criminals instead of giving them free food and lodging paid by our taxpayers.

 

[ShirleyM]

In terms of economic size ratio, the UK negotiating with the US is the equivalent of Nigeria negotiating with the UK.

We already have good trade with the USA, and there is no trade agreement between the EU and USA (until TTIP is agreed). We have a trade deficit with the EU, but we have a trade surplus with the USA. Makes you think, doesn't it.

 

[evdstap]

Did you hear how many times Gove used the 'get back control' phrase in his interviews yesterday and today. it is their current phrase of the moment. Please tell me what it means.

It's quite simple. 'Get back control' means UK law will become supreme to EU law. We won't need to get the EU's permission only for it to be refused. The recent amendment to get the NHS excluded from TTIP is smoke and mirrors as EU law can just override it. If you think I am exaggerating think about the tampon tax, Think about vacuum cleaners and kettles. The UK aren't even allowed to determine such minor details for ourselves.

I am struggling a bit to find the Tampon Tax Law, the Vacuum Cleaner Law and the Kettle Law. Are you sure it's laws you are on about? Because I think you're talking about product standards and VAT, that's something quite different. Are you actually on the right forum here?

Whether in the EU or outside, we'll have to comply with certain standards. Doing business with the EU means you have to comply with EU standards - in or out. As it happens, the EU has made great big strides in protecting our environment, by putting restrictions on the power consumption or some electrical equipment, such as vacuum cleaners and kettles. Sounds like a really good thing to me, so not sure why that is such an issue for you.

As for VAT, for similar reasons of harmonisation, the EU prescribes minimum VAT levels for different types of items, bearing in mind that, once VAT is paid, the product is in free circulation and if one nation decided to make a product VAT exempt, where other nations generally charge 20% or so, this would make competition really unfair, would solicit black market dealing and generally would undermine the single market. No absolute % is dictated, just a minimum, other than that every country can do what it wants. Sometimes, those general rules, which make perfect sense, are a little too tight, which is why the EU have discussed relaxing them a little. That's all part of the day to day improvement of ANY system, including our here in the UK

 

[evdstap]

At least the EU is standing up for us against the corporation.

Not true. Do some research on the 'revolving door' between lobbyists and the commissioners. The commissioners are lobbied in secret by multinationals and they spend billions to get the laws to protect their profits. Several organisations have been trying to get lobbying to be more open, but have failed. The EU don't want that information to be available to the public.

And that does not happen in Westminster?

 

[evdstap]

A nicely-timed article came out today regarding this point:





If we leave the EU, and our economy inevitably takes damage, with the risk of it being quite serious, just watch how much worse schools will get when austerity deepens and more budget cuts are made to balance the books.

I'm not saying either situation is perfect, but there's a very real risk of making it a whole lot worse whilst still having to deal with the number of non-EU migrants who, whilst "controlled", still outnumber the amount of EU migrants entering the UK every year.

And all this affects business how?

 

[evdstap]

If we leave the EU, and our economy inevitably takes damage

There are no guarantees, leave or stay. Can you guarantee things won't get worse if we Remain? Can you guarantee we won't get mass immigration every year. The immigration numbers will continue to rise each and every year due to the high unemployment in the EU, and that's without new countries joining. We don't have the infrastructure to cope, and the people are already at breaking point due to lower wages, cutbacks, lack of school places and a failing NHS.

Yes, I can guarantee that.

We have been in the EU for 43 years. We know full well how it works and what we get out of it. If we remain we can carry on growing and doing very well out of it. We know we will not have tariffs to pay on our imports from the EU and we do not get hit by tariffs exporting to the EU. We know we have a passport to operate in each member of the EU freely, we know we can recruit from the EU freely and work in other EU countries freely. We know exactly what we have and how this will impact us.

Leave CANNOT guarantee us anything. For starters, there is not one Leave voice: we do not know who will decide what we may or may not do when we leave. We know that we have to give notice to the EU under Article 50 and that this in itself will cause a shock to the system which will cause a drop of sterling and of financial markets across Europe. We know that we then have 2 years to negotiate an exit deal, but we have no idea what this exit deal will look like. Most Tory Euro-sceptics (who's pet project this is in the first place) wish to opt for EEA membership, even though this is not guaranteed to be accepted and it requires unanimous acceptance of the other EEA members, but EEA membership (call it the Norway option if you like) would require us to accept freedom of movement of people and the debate has descended into a great big migrant bashing bash, so the voters won't like that (will they care though?). Then there are others, like the ex-Thatcher adviser Patrick Minford, who want to come out altogether and work on complete free trade, accepting fully that this will eradicate manufacturing in this country. Others still, want EFTA deals, or even other deals. Irrespective of the deal, it will come with strings attached and a price tag and it is precisely that price tag that will hurt us, businesses and working people alike, badly.

That's what we know. All the rest is sentimental and emotional. Failing NHS? Maybe, but because we do not invest enough in it and we have an ageing population, not because of migrants (migrants use the NHS half as much as British people of the same age and sex) Overcrowded schools? Maybe, but again because we do not invest enough in education, not because of additional migrants (who, incidentally have helped us to get the economy where it is today). Lower wages? Not due to migration (or at least extremely little, 0.7% at the lowest level). All of this is the result of our own government not looking after the people. Bit of a shame to shoot the goose that lays the golden eggs and the happy scapegoat for that.

 

[Scott-Copywriter]

Regulations which we already meet and we trade with many of these countries without a trade agreement in place. Imagine the boost a bilateral trade agreement could give.

You have a profound misunderstanding of global trade I'm afraid.

Any country can trade with any other country without an agreement. The point of an FTA is that tariffs and quotas are reduced whilst regulations and processes are aligned.

It makes trade cheaper, easier and more plentiful. Trade continues without them, of course, but it's simply more expensive, more difficult, not as competitive and ultimately lower in volume as a result.

Thousands of our businesses have built their growth on the free single market of the EU, with customers, supply lines, regulations, costs and margins all fine-tuned, and now we are running the risk of uprooting all of that and creating uncertainty for thousands of businesses in the years ahead. What do you expect that to do to our economy and jobs?

Regarding bilateral trade agreements, the EU, with an economy and market multiple times larger than ours, will always win more favourable terms with the world's major economies than we would on our own. Within the EU, we hold all the aces regarding the vast majority of the world's economies, and can rival the likes of China and the United States as equals.

We already have good trade with the USA, and there is no trade agreement between the EU and USA (until TTIP is agreed). We have a trade deficit with the EU, but we have a trade surplus with the USA. Makes you think, doesn't it.

Not really. Correlation does not imply causation. Not even close in this case.

The human right law is a joke, but guess what, we aren't even allowed to deport them back to EU countries at times because their prisons aren't as good as ours. We will end up with the dregs of the world in our prisons. Maybe we should downgrade our prisons to the lowest common denominator and then we can deport criminals instead of giving them free food and lodging paid by our taxpayers.

You REALLY want to give our Government the right to rip up our fundamental human rights and re-word them as they wish? Really? Do you not realise that these human rights also apply to you?

I'm speechless that someone who is so sceptical of political authority would be so willing to have their own human rights tinkered with and made even more lax. Especially when the number of EU nationals fighting deportation successfully through human rights claims is a minuscule fraction.

 

[evdstap]

This is why we will join the EEA. That is a quick and simple path to maintaining the status quo, solidifying the UK's position and allowing it to continue forwards. Anything else is years of restricted markets during protracted trade deal negotiations where the outcome is not certain until the very end.

Couple of comments to this:
1. That we may want to join the EEA is almost certain. That we will is not, because acceptance of the UK into the EEA requires the unanimous approval of all EEA members and not all seem too keen to make a Brexit come to a successful end.

2. You are absolutely right, though, that if we did join the EEA that would require acceptance of free movement of people. This is what really gets my goat: Leave are throwing everything onto the migration issue at the moment and that resonates. The powers to be after a Leave vote know full well that they will have to accept free movement, but they are just deceiving their voters by not admitting it. Deception for their own political gain, I find that really despicable.

 

[evdstap]

Big changes are coming, and we will be much better positioned to handle those within the strength and coordination of the EU.

Where the EU will restrict us from getting trade deals of our own, and even if we get EU trade deals there will be trade offs where the UK gets a less good deal so that France can have special rules for pate de foie gras (as example) included, or something that won't help the UK at all?

Where our 'success' is handed over to failing EU economies as happen now? What's the point of having a strong economy and suffering an ever expanding population when it doesn't help the UK people one little bit? Aren't we already last in the queue? We hand over vast sums of money to the EU in addition to the membership fee, and our national debt is spiralling out of control. Even Cameron said the UK would be fine outside the .EU, but now wants everyone to march to a different tune

Honestly, this Us v Them thing should really stop. Do you know how trade deals between the EU and other countries and blocks are negotiated? For one, it's not done by some unidentified "EU-Citizens", but by top trade negotiators from the member countries, a good many of whom are British in fact. These national negotiators take on board the wishes of their governments and other member states within the principles of the EU. And so it is possible that France gets a clause built in for Foie Gras (if you say so), and Britain can get a clause put in for Cheddar cheese for all I care.

Our success comes from the huge single market that we are in and is by no means handed over to other countries. The stronger our EU partners get, the better it is for us. That's why we are net contributors and less developed counties are net receivers and that's why the we benefit much more indirectly from this.

This attitude of the whole EU ganging up to defeat the UK is frankly ridiculous and has no place in this world

 

[evdstap]

The E.U. hold many restrictions over us, preventing us doing what we want, or need, to do.
All in the small print that no-one bothered to read.

Throwing unwanted foreign criminals out is just one example.
Because of their human rights.

The import and export regulations restrict what, and who we trade with outside the Euro-union, if we are not in the EU,
we could then trade with anyone we like around the world.

We would be better off if we could decide for ourselves who we trade with.

We can throw foreign criminal out of our country no problem, UNLESS this breaches their human rights. I, for one, am very happy with that. I think human rights are the most sacrosanct of rights that we have and if we abandon these we open up to practices of torture, death penalties, etc. Even a criminal has rights, in or out of the EU. This is by the way, not strictly related to EU membership, but more to the ECHR acceptance and it is certainly not business related.

We can import from and export to whomever we want, and we do that already. We are just no terribly good at it. Belgium, for instance, exports more to India of all places than we do. That doesn't give me a great deal of confidence that we would strike better trade negotiations with other countries that we do with the EU on our side

 

[evdstap]

It's certain that the UK economy will be hit hard by Brexit because of one, undeniable fact: uncertainty.

Uncertainty caused by Cameron's doom and gloom predictions, which are pure propaganda. If business can make a profit in the UK it will stay in the UK. If it can only survive through importing hundreds of immigrants on minimum wage, and then expect the taxpayer to make up their wages while paying little or no corporation tax, then quite honestly they are not contributing at all. They are actually a drain.

You are really mis-hitting this one completely. If you want to dismiss anything you don't like to hear as propaganda I would suggest you just leave this forum, as there is really no point being here then.

The uncertainty, whether it is caused by Dodgy Dave's "propaganda" or not, is a fact and that fact alone will ensure that the economy will suffer.
You're right: if a business can make a profit in the UK it will stay in the UK. Where this becomes problematic is where a business is in the UK because it make a profit in the EU. Being out of the EU then hampers that and so they may be better off inside the EU at that point, i.e. relocate. This is particularly poignant for banks and financial institutions, who have, through our EU membership, a passport to operate in every other EU state. If we're out, we do not have that and that is a real problem for these businesses.

I know know you to be a UKIP agent because of the use of language like "importing hundreds of migrants on minimum wage". We import goods and services, not people. And if you are quite happy to see our fruit and horticultural farmers disappear because they cannot recruit seasonal workers from the EU, or creative businesses pack up and leave, because they find it difficult to recruit EU talent freely, or the NHS crippled, because they cannot get the nurses and doctors, than, for your idealogical reasons resisting foreigners coming to this country, you are a danger to our economy and our existence.

 

[ShirleyM]

Oh dear! 'Experts' on everything except how the EU is gradually eroding democracy, or maybe you do know and don't care.

'Experts' on everything except how this mass immigration is not worth the price we pay and is destroying everything good about this country, or maybe you do know but don't care.

Maybe you are lucky and it hasn't touched your life, and the millions it has are not worth consideration? Maybe you believe (as some seem to) that power is best left with un-elected individuals, as they know best and will always put the country and the people first. Haha - could anyone be so naive?

No matter. You prefer your little bubble and I prefer mine. More and more businesses and individuals are seeing through the spin and propaganda of Remain, the vote is swinging towards Leave and we still have the opportunity for a few more EU crises to appear and for the EU elites to send another own goal into the net. I do think Mr Juncker has a case of foot in mouth disease, but he is so entertaining. Just google 'Jean-Claude-Junckers-most-outrageous-political-quotations.html'. Honestly, it's worth the effort.

I think we will get Brexit, as the open borders policy of the EU has ruined the lives of many via mass immigration. A job, housing, education, the NHS, safety, security and democracy come very high on the list for ordinary people. All these will be improved with Brexit. Yes, people are prepared to take short term pain for long term gain. You may be disappointed with a Brexit, but I'm confident that when you see the future of the remaining EU countries you will silently send thanks.

 

[Deleted member 59730]

This referendum has nothing to do with the European Court which is a separate entity to the EU.

Sadly it seems that most people will vote leave because of that confusion and belief that refugees are somehow stopped by leaving the EU. It is bad conditions at home which causes a refugee crisis which is mostly caused by climate change.

Lets have a referendum to leave the consequences of climate change;-)

 

[KM-Tiger]

or the NHS crippled, because they cannot get the nurses and doctors,

3.6% of NHS staff are from EU countries. Roughly the same as come from Commonwealth countries.

 

[evdstap]

Oh dear! 'Experts' on everything except how the EU is gradually eroding democracy, or maybe you do know and don't care.

'Experts' on everything except how this mass immigration is not worth the price we pay and is destroying everything good about this country, or maybe you do know but don't care.

Maybe you are lucky and it hasn't touched your life, and the millions it has are not worth consideration? Maybe you believe (as some seem to) that power is best left with un-elected individuals, as they know best and will always put the country and the people first. Haha - could anyone be so naive?

No matter. You prefer your little bubble and I prefer mine. More and more businesses and individuals are seeing through the spin and propaganda of Remain, the vote is swinging towards Leave and we still have the opportunity for a few more EU crises to appear and for the EU elites to send another own goal into the net. I do think Mr Juncker has a case of foot in mouth disease, but he is so entertaining. Just google 'Jean-Claude-Junckers-most-outrageous-political-quotations.html'. Honestly, it's worth the effort.

I think we will get Brexit, as the open borders policy of the EU has ruined the lives of many via mass immigration. A job, housing, education, the NHS, safety, security and democracy come very high on the list for ordinary people. All these will be improved with Brexit. Yes, people are prepared to take short term pain for long term gain. You may be disappointed with a Brexit, but I'm confident that when you see the future of the remaining EU countries you will silently send thanks.

I really think you have no place on this forum

 

[Deleted member 59730]

http://www.theguardian.com/politics...-referendum-find-out-how-much-you-really-know

 

[evdstap]

3.6% of NHS staff are from EU countries. Roughly the same as come from Commonwealth countries.

Firstly, EU migrants make up a significant proportion of NHS staff – over 10% in the case of doctors – but not as large a proportion as non-EU migrants.

Secondly, EU migrants are slightly more likely than the population overall to be NHS staff generally. They are disproportionately likely to be doctors – but not to be nurses.

Lastly, in nursing and midwifery EU immigrants make up a small proportion, but their numbers have been increasing at a historically rapid rate in in recent years as the number of nurses trained in Britain has dropped. Without this, overall nursing numbers would have fallen rather than remaining more or less steady.

 

[ShirleyM]

You can blame AccountingWeb for my presence here.

ps. the Guardian is the most pro-EU newspaper full of non-facts, followed closely by the BBC.

Firstly, EU migrants make up a significant proportion of NHS staff – over 10% in the case of doctors – but not as large a proportion as non-EU migrants.

it isn't 10%, but that's irrelevant anyway. A points-based immigration system will allow the people who have the skills we need to come to the UK. We would be better to train our own though, rather than deprive another country of their skills. Seasonal workers can be given temporary visas and then sent home when the work is finished, so no unemployment benefits.

 

[KM-Tiger]

Without this, overall nursing numbers would have fallen rather than remaining more or less steady.

And the problem there is that we are not training in sufficient numbers. 100,000 applied last year for only 20,000 places. So we could train more, and perhaps re-examine the decision to abandon the SEN system.

And there is absolutely no reason why doctors and nurses from EU countries cannot continue to work in the UK post brexit.

So no, the NHS will not collapse when we leave the EU.

 

[ShirleyM]

You REALLY want to give our Government the right to rip up our fundamental human rights and re-word them as they wish? Really? Do you not realise that these human rights also apply to you?

Of course not, but I do think they give greater rights to the criminal than the victim, which to me, is the wrong way round. Theresa May wants to exit the ECHR, but I understand this cannot be done while we are in the EU.

It appears to work the other way with the European arrest warrant, in that we are forced to arrest and transfer a citizen without any proof of a crime having been committed, and possibly to a country that does not have Habeas Corpus, can detain citizens for months without reason, and the prisons are almost certain to be less humane than our own.

So where is the logic? We can't deport proven criminals, but we can deport innocent people who are not proven guilty to the very same country.

 

[Deleted member 59730]

You REALLY want to give our Government the right to rip up our fundamental human rights and re-word them as they wish? Really? Do you not realise that these human rights also apply to you?

Of course not, but I do think they give greater rights to the criminal than the victim, which to me, is the wrong way round. Theresa May wants to exit the ECHR, but I understand this cannot be done while we are in the EU.

It appears to work the other way with the European arrest warrant, in that we are forced to arrest and transfer a citizen without any proof of a crime having been committed, and possibly to a country that does not have Habeas Corpus, can detain citizens for months without reason, and the prisons are almost certain to be less humane than our own.

So where is the logic? We can't deport proven criminals, but we can deport innocent people who are not proven guilty to the very same country.

Keep the lies coming.

ECHR has nothing to do with the EU. They don't even share the same membership.

Where is the logic in your beliefs? Do you want criminals to be arrested in Europe and brought to trial in the UK?

 

[ShirleyM]

Keep the lies coming.

You got me mixed up with Theresa May. I was just quoting her and other Conservatives.

 

[Scott-Copywriter]

You REALLY want to give our Government the right to rip up our fundamental human rights and re-word them as they wish? Really? Do you not realise that these human rights also apply to you?

Of course not, but I do think they give greater rights to the criminal than the victim, which to me, is the wrong way round. Theresa May wants to exit the ECHR, but I understand this cannot be done while we are in the EU.

Of course they don't. It's just applicable in certain ways to different people. It is one set of human rights for everyone. Every human has the same rights as other humans. That's why they're called human rights.

I find it mind-boggling that the xenophobia is so strong in some people that they actually want our politicians to leave the international standard of human rights to create their own, and actually make them less fundamentally protective of the basic rights of human beings.

It's an extremely dangerous thing to toy around with. Does it not alarm you at all that you have politicians like Theresa May who want to leave the ECHR and have the power to change your basic liberties and rights?

Might I add that Theresa May is the same politician who was advocating the internet investigatory powers bill, which would require a 12 month record of every website every British citizen visits on the internet.

Her bill would have also made it a criminal offence, punishable by a two year prison term, if any company like Google, Facebook or Twitter informed citizens that their personal data was being requested.

And you want to give politicians like her the power to alter your basic human rights?

 

[KM-Tiger]

It appears to work the other way with the European arrest warrant, in that we are forced to arrest and transfer a citizen without any proof of a crime having been committed, and possibly to a country that does not have Habeas Corpus, can detain citizens for months without reason, and the prisons are almost certain to be less humane than our own.

There are documented cases already, cannot quickly find a reference but a UK citizen languished in a Greek jail for months before finally being released without charge.

This is a deeply fundamental problem, as the Napoleonic Code mainly used in EU countries is very different to our Common Law system, in particular no Habeas Corpus. So expect, if we remain, for our criminal justice system to be replaced with some EU code. I find that deeply worrying.

 

[sirearl]

I really think you have no place on this forum

LOL nice to see ignorance and democracy are alive and well on the forum.

 

[ShirleyM]

And you want to give politicians like her the power to alter your basic human rights?

If she does try to alter our basic human rights, she has to convince the Commons and the Lords to agree it. If she should manage it, we have the power to remove her, and the next politician can repeal that law. That's the beauty of democracy, and the EU doesn't allow either of those.

 

[evdstap]

You can blame AccountingWeb for my presence here.

ps. the Guardian is the most pro-EU newspaper full of non-facts, followed closely by the BBC.

Firstly, EU migrants make up a significant proportion of NHS staff – over 10% in the case of doctors – but not as large a proportion as non-EU migrants.

it isn't 10%, but that's irrelevant anyway. A points-based immigration system will allow the people who have the skills we need to come to the UK. We would be better to train our own though, rather than deprive another country of their skills. Seasonal workers can be given temporary visas and then sent home when the work is finished, so no unemployment benefits.

Surely you're not an accountant??

Points based immigration systems are not a panacea against immigration. The Australian points based system, often quoted by Leave, was designed to grow the population, not reduce it. It comes with its own set of problems in trying to match supply and demand. Visas are a real deterrent to migrants, so the simple statement that seasonal workers can get "temporary visas" is not helpful. If your gripe is with migrants claiming benefits then know that migrants are not benefit scroungers. They come here to work. The benefits they claim are mostly in-work benefits, not unemployment benefits or the like. You are so anti-migrant that your vision of them is totally clouded.

The 10% doctors figure is only slightly inaccurate in that it is actually slightly more (10.1%), but that is indeed irrelevant. We can train more British doctors, but there would still be a shortage if we did and with the rapidly ageing population we'd struggle to make that work.

Not sure where your rant about the Guardian and the BBC comes from; seems you don't like anyone that says anything contrary to your belief as a follower of the messiah called Farage - the old foreign bashing hedge fund manager who doesn't give a rut about you, me or anyone but himself.

 

[evdstap]

And the problem there is that we are not training in sufficient numbers. 100,000 applied last year for only 20,000 places. So we could train more, and perhaps re-examine the decision to abandon the SEN system.

And there is absolutely no reason why doctors and nurses from EU countries cannot continue to work in the UK post brexit.

So no, the NHS will not collapse when we leave the EU.

That's nurses. not doctors. They can continue to come here post-Brexit? My point entirely: they would and there would be no reduction in numbers (or hardly), supported by the fact that the non-EU migration figure is still higher than the EU number despite the fact the we have full and unlimited control over that. So we'd have control, but nothing changes - big deal for an extremely high cost (remember: this would only fly under the WTO option, which would knock the UK into a serious recession; other options would require free movement anyway)

 

[ShirleyM]

You are so anti-migrant that your vision of them is totally clouded.

I am not anti-migrant. I am against uncontrolled immigration, and my vision is perfect, thank you.

 

[evdstap]

You REALLY want to give our Government the right to rip up our fundamental human rights and re-word them as they wish? Really? Do you not realise that these human rights also apply to you?

Of course not, but I do think they give greater rights to the criminal than the victim, which to me, is the wrong way round. Theresa May wants to exit the ECHR, but I understand this cannot be done while we are in the EU.

It appears to work the other way with the European arrest warrant, in that we are forced to arrest and transfer a citizen without any proof of a crime having been committed, and possibly to a country that does not have Habeas Corpus, can detain citizens for months without reason, and the prisons are almost certain to be less humane than our own.

So where is the logic? We can't deport proven criminals, but we can deport innocent people who are not proven guilty to the very same country.

The rights of the criminal are not greater than the rights of the victim; we can deport neither if it infringes on their human rights. Try not to adopt a lynch mob mentality please.
Under the EAW we are forced to arrest and transfer citizens, but not without any proof. The EAW is also fully compliant with Habeas Corpus. I agree that there is room for improvement to reduce the occurrence of warrants on trivial charges, but the EU is currently working on that and I expect that to be resolved at very short notice. Note that since 2009 only 24 Brits were arrested for "other" offences, which could potentially include trivial offenses.

Flipside of the coin is the ease and speed with which criminal can be extradited to the UK; I'm about to have a nice holiday in Marbella, which used to be called Costa de Crime for the dense population of British criminals free from fear of prosecution. And remember the 7/7 bomber who fled to Italy, or the school teacher who marched off to France with his under aged pupil.

Finally, I wholeheartedly disagree with your statement that other countries' prisons are almost certain to less humane than our own. In many EU member states prisons are like a holiday resort compared to the British prison.

 

[evdstap]

And you want to give politicians like her the power to alter your basic human rights?

If she does try to alter our basic human rights, she has to convince the Commons and the Lords to agree it. If she should manage it, we have the power to remove her, and the next politician can repeal that law. That's the beauty of democracy, and the EU doesn't allow either of those.

Is that the elected House of Lords?

 

[evdstap]

LOL nice to see ignorance and democracy are alive and well on the forum.

No reference to her opinion, but to the fact that this is (I think and hoped?) a business forum and little of what she said had any bearing on business. I value ANY opinion at least as much as my own, otherwise my opinion will go stale

 

[boring-friday]

Thousands of our businesses have built their growth on the free single market of the EU, with customers, supply lines, regulations, costs and margins all fine-tuned, and now we are running the risk of uprooting all of that and creating uncertainty for thousands of businesses in the years ahead. What do you expect that to do to our economy and jobs?

Regarding bilateral trade agreements, the EU, with an economy and market multiple times larger than ours, will always win more favourable terms with the world's major economies than we would on our own. Within the EU, we hold all the aces regarding the vast majority of the world's economies, and can rival the likes of China and the United States as equals.

1000s more have built their businesses selling to us though eh. Who even cares, even if we'd have to stop drinking champagne,eating brie and driving BMWs and unfortunately we'd have to stop selling...what do we even sell to them? Hopefully the guys without the BMWs can buy it instead seeing as there'd be more money available than in the first place.

No idea on how it would affect trade deals and couldn't personally care less but I'm fairly certain China would be happy to wipe import duty off if we did the same, surely countries approach a trade deal based on who's selling the most to eachother rather than just who has the biggest economy.

 

[KM-Tiger]

seems you don't like anyone that says anything contrary to your belief as a follower of the messiah called Farage - the old foreign bashing hedge fund manager who doesn't give a rut about you, me or anyone but himself.

Complete and utter piffle. He wasn't a hedge fund manager, he worked at the LME.

 

[ShirleyM]

"seems you don't like anyone that says anything contrary to your belief"

Pot, kettle, black, comes to mind. I must now go and worship at the altar of the Messiah ... oops, my mistake, I meant the EU.

Please don't make it personal @evdstap. I don't agree with your opinion, but I respect your right to have one, and hope you will respect my right too.