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john1989
Maybe the "in" brigade don't realise the referendum isn't just about creating our own laws.
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Europe should we stay in or get out?
- Thread starter Funding for Communities
- Start date
Maybe the "in" brigade don't realise the referendum isn't just about creating our own laws.
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amberlamps
There seem to be different types.
There are the scared ones, who are afraid of change or have heard the French president threaten us as he did earlier, as Dave smiled on and nodded agreement.
There are the juiced-in ones, who are bribed by the EU with money.
There are the evil ones, who hate the British people and want to see us harmed.
There are the "think with their feelings" ones, and the EU "feels" right so it must be right.
There are the boot-licking ones, who will do as they are told.
There are the "I hate Nigel Farage" ones who don't like that he makes them feel bad because he proves them wrong, so they want to stay in just to spite him.
Lots of lovely diversity there
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But it has to be ....
because if you are going to get rid of the EU laws you either have stuff all whitehall control over the population (and then what would the 45000 civil servants there do with themselves)
or you need new laws or parts of laws that magically have no red tape in them
the bonfire of the Quangoes and all that
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Well, how about an end to uncontrolled EU migration, an end to uncontrolled and unregulated EU imports, an end to the Working Time Directive, withdrawal from the ECHR, scrapping of the EU common external tariff, scrapping of EU rules on VAT products for starters.
By my reckoning, that would protect British jobs, allow us to employ skilled and talented people from all over the world instead of unskilled Europeans, make British industry more competitive, allow us to negotiate free trade agreements with the rest of the world, ensure the supremacy of British courts, prevent access to British markets of products that don't adhere to British standards, and thereby encourage local manufacturing.
I think that's enough for starters.
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What are you trying to suggest, that leaving the EU means more bureaucrats? What about reallocating the ones currently administering EU laws, such as the ones in HMRC administering VAT rules? Or the ones in the DWP administering child benefit for EU immigrants? Or the ones in the councils working out how to cope with a large influx of EU migrants in the local services departments?
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sirearl
Its a matter of history hardly moot.
I am always amazed at how little people use history to decide the future.
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amberlamps
Its a matter of history hardly moot.
I am always amazed at how little people use history to decide the future.
It's moot because we can't change our laws if we are in the EU. Most of our laws are made abroad now and after an "in" vote, that would increase. So the specifics are moot, since we have to be out to be able to do anything for ourselves.
As for history, that's a good reason for being out. The 20th Century warned us very well about the pro-EU types. They went on the rampage all over the world; we can't let them do that here.
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amberlamps
Why indeed.
The figures quoted come from the House of Commons library, which neglected to mention that EU regulations pass into UK law without going through parliament, as detailed here: https://forbritain.org/percentagelaws.pdf
If foreign regulations can pass into British law without even going through the British parliament, then it's...... almost....... as if....... we're ruled by someone else. That's exactly what it is.
If some people will give away our inalienable British rights to not be ruled by foreign governments and to control our own borders, then that sets a precedent that we can test; maybe we should take away some of their inalienable rights, and see if they like it.
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sirearl
You have to go a bit further back in history to see why we have the fundamental problems in the UK that affect the majority.
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amberlamps
I'm sure you do, but the 20th Century is fresh in most people's minds, in terms of what they experienced and what they have read or seen in videos, plus it was full of examples of why you don't let the control freaks and boot-lickers screw things up for everyone else.
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There is no list that I am aware of, and I don't think there needs to be.
The point is that post Brexit, changes in UK law would be decided solely by our democratically elected govt, not imposed on us by a foreign power.
And if we don't like what the UK govt is doing, then we have a vote that could change that, and history shows that sometimes we do. 1944, 1979, 1997, 2010 all saw voters change govt for the better of us all.
With the EU voters have no power at all.
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amberlamps
"Racist" is code for attempting to try and shut down what the other side says because they give you the boo-hoos.
Try another one.
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amberlamps
It's such an easy one to understand.
Some people are boot-lickers and like to be told what to think, by authority, and are weasels who like to give away their freedom and ruin their children's future. This is the "in" camp.
Some people are courageous and like to rule themselves and be responsible for trying to provide a decent future for their kids. This is the "out" camp.
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amberlamps
Here's how our democracy is supposed to work, for instance.
One group of people votes for a penny off income tax. Another group votes for more spending on welfare.
Some people win and some people lose, but everyone accepts the result because that's democracy.
In the case of the EU vote, some people are voting to remain free and accountable for the future of their people, country and even their kids. Other people are voting to give away freedom so that we can be ruled by a foreign dictatorship.
If the "out" camp wins, everyone wins, because being free and ruling your own country is a basic right of the British people.
If the "in" camp wins, then everyone loses because the freedom which we enjoy as an inalienable right will have been given away.
We shouldn't even be having an in/out vote in the first place. Is it possible to use democracy to give away freedom or to impose slavery?
We should never have been taken into the EU in the first place. It was nothing short of a crime and those who took us in, if still alive, should hang for what they have done, and their wealth taken and distributed to their victims.
One group of people votes for a penny off income tax. Another group votes for more spending on welfare.
Some people win and some people lose, but everyone accepts the result because that's democracy.
In the case of the EU vote, some people are voting to remain free and accountable for the future of their people, country and even their kids. Other people are voting to give away freedom so that we can be ruled by a foreign dictatorship.
If the "out" camp wins, everyone wins, because being free and ruling your own country is a basic right of the British people.
If the "in" camp wins, then everyone loses because the freedom which we enjoy as an inalienable right will have been given away.
We shouldn't even be having an in/out vote in the first place. Is it possible to use democracy to give away freedom or to impose slavery?
We should never have been taken into the EU in the first place. It was nothing short of a crime and those who took us in, if still alive, should hang for what they have done, and their wealth taken and distributed to their victims.
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amberlamps
What's stupid or ignorant about it?
If you disagree, then what words would you use to describe people who want to give away the right of other people to rule themselves, protect their borders, etc?
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amberlamps
I think you definitely shouldn't base your decision on reality; rather base it upon feelings instead. Just kidding!
As for insults, if someone acts like a traitor, is it an insult to call them a traitor or is it just being accurate?
For example, if I said that I thought it was all right to mug old ladies, would it be an insult to call me a "nasty man" or would it be fair comment?
This in/out malarkey is literally about whether or not we take back our freedom or give it away, so don't get upset if the people who want to give it away are called out for what they are. This isn't some ordinary vote; people are actually wanting to assign your children to a future of slavery, so don't get upset when they are described in an appropriate way.
Don't let your feelings rule your head.
The "The Scottish Independence" vote* wasn't an independence vote, since the SNP want to be in the EU, meaning that Scotland wouldn't be independent if they left the UK. The "Scottish Independence" vote was a "we hate the English and do not want to be part of the same country" vote. The SNP activists who went around hurting people's feelings were motivated by hatred, which is the same kind of motivation you will find from some of the pro-EU people in the UK.
*Words are often used to deceive. The "Scottish Independence" vote was a Scottish Independence vote in the same way that the Democratic People's Republic of Korea is a democratic people's republic, "progressives" are progressive or "anti-racism" is about anti-racism.
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amberlamps
Sweet.
Regardless of the result, you won't have to apologise to your kids in ten years.
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That, for me is the key issue. Sometimes you have to accept what you do not like, but you know that a majority voted for.
The EU does not give you that, so ultimately it will end in exactly the sort of war it is supposed to prevent. If you cannot change things by voting, then you have no choice but to change them by force.
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amberlamps
But I don't want to do that. I want them to dig deep and find the decency within themselves not to want to impose slavery on their fellow Brit. That's what it boils down to: motivation.
It's as pointless to try and convince a boot-licker not to be a boot-licker as it is to try and convince a Jehovah's Witness to be agnostic. Only they can find the strength to change, if at all possible.
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amberlamps
Exactly.
Although democracy ultimately doesn't work in the long run, it's the best we have and it works as long as people are voting for reasonable things. The reasonable things are the things which get "promised" in manifestos around election time: tax rises/ cuts, big capital projects such as building schools and hospitals, and so on. People accept the result of the elections precisely because the things being voted for are reasonable. It's like playing cards; you might win or lose but you can play again next time and take your chances again.
The problem with the EU vote is that it is not reasonable; people will be voting for whether or not to impose slavery on other people and their children and grand children.
Would a reasonable and decent man take up arms to protect himself, his children and his people from slavery? Of course! We did so in the 1940s and we'll do so again if necessary.
Back to a point I made earlier: if someone is prepared to vote to impose slavery on other people, or in other words remove an inalienable right which other people enjoy, then would they accept someone coming along and removing an inalienable right of theirs? I don't think they'd be very happy about that.
I don't think it's really possible to insult such people, because they insult themselves with their own intentions. It's possible to describe them accurately in ways which might hurt their feelings.
As for the war, it's already started, and has been going on for a while. We'll get a good example of it to see on TV this summer in Germany (and possibly Austria, Finland and Sweden); there is going to be a fair bit of civil disturbance there this year, brought to them courtesy of the EU.
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amberlamps
Since I can't make a traitor out of a decent person, it would be pointless of them to pay me anything. Traitors are gonna traitor, no matter how you speak to them
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amberlamps
Glad you're getting something out of it, and I hope the cognitive dissonance isn't hurting too much.
Some clever Indian person once said this:
"First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win."
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So if we democratically vote to stay in the EU, will you lot shut up whinging? Or does democracy only extend to your subjective definition of right and wrong?
I want you to dig deep and find the decency within yourself not to impose your comedy upon your fellow citizens.
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