Europe should we stay in or get out?

[john1989]

@Scott-Copywriter - apologies. Multi-quote didn't like me today.



There are two forces in this world at the moment: one side trying to bring countries closer together, and the other side taking them further apart through isolation. Given human history, I do not have much faith in the latter.


Really? Because history has taught us that empires eventually collapse.


I do not think this world will reach its highest potential of peace and prosperity until people set this aside and work together, even if it's sometimes not easy, even if it's not perfect, and even if some things are more beneficial to others than themselves. However, when the human race as a whole turns toward that idea is anyone's guess.


We can still work with other countries without being in the EU.


Plus, we still have the self-determined right to leave this "club" at any time in the future even if we remain this year. Sovereignty is defined simply as "supreme power or authority". That option alone gives us sovereignty. We alone have that power.


We may have the right to leave the club at a later date, but getting a referendum on the cards again would be very difficult, if possible at all.

 

[ShirleyM]

Am I mistaken, or is the Chancellor of the Exchequer threatening the British people?

Unfortunately, you are not mistaken.

 

[ShirleyM]

Here are a couple of petitions that people may be interested in:

We demand a Public Inquiry into the UK Government's culture of lying to voters
https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/128217

We require parliament to debate Lord Kilmuir's letter to Edward Heath
https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/122770
This one asks for an explanation of why our sovereignty was handed over to the EU in breach of the Magna Carta. This actually amounts to treason.

 

[Newchodge]

Forget the referendum for a moment.

If th Chancellor were aware of an issue fundamentally affecting this country's economy he would be failing in his duty if he did not announce what steps he intended to take to mitigate those effects. That is what he has done.

 

[Newchodge]

Here are a couple of petitions that people may be interested in:

We demand a Public Inquiry into the UK Government's culture of lying to voters
https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/128217

We require parliament to debate Lord Kilmuir's letter to Edward Heath
https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/122770
This one asks for an explanation of why our sovereignty was handed over to the EU in breach of the Magna Carta. This actually amounts to treason.

I love the idea of the first petition. It should extend to all politicians, at all times. However that would leave all of them with virtually nothing to say.

 

[Deleted member 226268]

The EU is a malevolent force, destroying a lot of the good that the UK has achieved. Especially when it comes to law, freedom, and rights.

This explains how our freedoms and rights have been eroded by the EU, as EU law is supreme to UK law. Nobody ever explains these losses to the UK public. The typical EU approach is that they hope nobody will notice until it is too late, and it is irreversible.

No Worries........Call-Me-Dave will look out for us....stand up for us and tell all at the EU where to go...and where to stuff it...
Care for our national interests.
Won't you Dave...
...... Dave ???

Vote Conservative .... You know it makes sense .....watch my lips move ....Would I lie to you ?

.

 

[Deleted member 59730]

This explains how our freedoms and rights have been eroded by the EU, as EU law is supreme to UK law. Nobody ever explains these losses to the UK public. The typical EU approach is that they hope nobody will notice until it is too late, and it is irreversible.

That would be the laws to clean up our beaches. Something which the UK government fought against. Or perhaps you like swimming in seawater with floaters? Floaters are a polite way of saying solid pieces of human shit.

What about laws to protect the environment like clean water and air? Something else which the UK govrnment would not have done without pressure from the EU.

What about laws giving British workers more rights?

What about the banning of mobile roaming charges? Something which the UKIP backer is dead against.

 

[Scott-Copywriter]

Really? Because history has taught us that empires eventually collapse.

It's really not an empire though. Come on.

It's a union of member nations cooperating closely, sharing some laws and deciding on matters together.

If someone wants to visit the UK, they are visiting the UK. If one of us wants to holiday in Spain, we are going on holiday in Spain. Italy, France, Germany, Ireland, Austria, Finland, Sweden and every other is still a proud country with an elected Government in each one where they have the power to decide on many important matters, including the right of when to leave at any time.

Just think of what the UK Government could do to this country within its own powers whilst the UK is in the EU. If Parliament wished to do so, they could completely turn this country on its head and make it virtually unrecognisable in many different ways.

Just look at how many Acts Parliament have passed since 2000, beyond the small handful related to the EU:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Acts_of_the_Parliament_of_the_United_Kingdom,_2000–present

Some might say that the UK is not 100% independent in the EU, but no country ever is whether we're in or out. That's just the way the world is now. If you want an example of a country trying to push the boundaries of independence and self-reliance, just look at North Korea or even Russia in some respects. The days of countries being able to do whatever they want without any outside influence or repercussions are over - whether direct or indirect.

We may have the right to leave the club at a later date, but getting a referendum on the cards again would be very difficult, if possible at all.

Who says we need a referendum? This current EU referendum isn't even legally binding. It's purely advisory.

The UK Government retains the right to leave at any point. Another referendum will come around eventually, especially if things do get worse (which I personally don't think they will), but the UK Government could invoke withdrawal at any time without any public consultation.

Plus, we do not necessarily need a referendum on whether to leave. Some other EU countries have presented referendums to the public regarding major decisions within the EU, which then tend to follow either the route of renegotiation or exit.

And if the UK Government won't hold referendums, then just do what you Brexiteers value so highly: vote for a new Government in the next General Election which will.

 

[KM-Tiger]

What about laws giving British workers more rights?

What about the banning of mobile roaming charges? Something which the UKIP backer is dead against.

You mean like the Equal Pay Act that predates us joining the EU? Or the maternity rights that are far superior to EU minimums?

And why should the rest of us subsidise those that want to use their mobiles in EU countries?

 

[Scott-Copywriter]

Am I mistaken, or is the Chancellor of the Exchequer threatening the British people?

I saw what he said. It's a dangerous strategy. It all depends on whether the British public perceive it as a warning or a threat.

Whilst I advocate remaining in the EU, it doesn't mean that I fully agree with the tact some remain campaigners use.

What he said is technically true. In the event of an economic downturn caused by Brexit (even if it's only short-term as some leave campaigners claim), spending cuts will be made to close the shortfall in public finances. That will happen even if Cameron and Osborne are replaced by Boris & Co. It's just what right-wing politicians believe in.

So he is being honest, but how that has been delivered is risky indeed.

 

[Newchodge]

You mean like the Equal Pay Act that predates us joining the EU? Or the maternity rights that are far superior to EU minimums?

And why should the rest of us subsidise those that want to use their mobiles in EU countries?

Why is there any additional cost, that needs subsidising, in using a mobile in other EU countries? Same networks, same satellites, same companies, same costs.

 

[Deleted member 59730]

And why should the rest of us subsidise those that want to use their mobiles in EU countries?

Why should the UK government allow mobile companies to make excessive profits against the interests of the consumer?

Oh, I know. Its for the political donations. And you call this Oligarchy a democracy!

 

[Scott-Copywriter]

It's interesting looking at the opinion polls from Quebec's 1995 independence referendum:

It's common for a late swing to the status quo even if opinion polls don't reflect it.

Pollsters have three typical theories for this:

1). Some people intend to vote leave, but when it comes to the actual polling day and they're stood with the ballot paper in front of them, the true realisation of exactly what they're about to vote for hits home.

2). Voters who may lean towards leave use opinion polls as a method of venting their frustrations and expressing dissatisfaction at the current Government. It's similar to how people leave bad reviews of large businesses. For example, if someone's flights get cancelled, they may post a Twitter or Facebook rant about the airline. This doesn't really achieve much, but it gives people a sense of fulfilment to express their negative opinion to others.

However, when it comes to vote time, many of these people then weigh up the risks and opt for the status quo.

3). When faced with a complicated decision fraught with risk and uncertainty, some leave leaners may simply abstain and let everyone else decide for them so they do not feel responsible if Brexit turns out to be a very bad idea. This is commonplace in society. When the pressure is mounting on a difficult and uncertain decision which may have bad repercussions, many people instinctively look to pass the buck to someone else and then ride along with the outcome.

And before someone comes in with "but the EU isn't the status quo", this is just how it will be perceived by the majority of the population.

Time will tell if the same thing happens next week.

 

[Deleted member 226268]

.
A hypothetical question...

Let's assume Divine Intervention came down next week and EVERYONE voted out. 100%
Then next month UKIP took over.

How many of our original laws could Nigel claw back from the E.U. ?
How many of their laws imposed on us could we dump ?
How Independent from them would the E.U. allow us to become ?
.

 

[Deleted member 59730]

3). When faced with a complicated decision fraught with risk and uncertainty, some leave leaners may simply abstain and let everyone else decide for them so they do not feel responsible if Brexit turns out to be a very bad idea. This is commonplace in society. When the pressure is mounting on a difficult and uncertain decision which may have bad repercussions, many people instinctively look to pass the buck to someone else and then ride along with the outcome.

Dear Scott

You must have been writing that while I was on the phone talking to someone about that very scenario.

 

[Deleted member 59730]

.
A hypothetical question...

Let's assume Divine Intervention came down next week and EVERYONE voted out. 100%
Then next month UKIP took over.

How many of our original laws could Nigel claw back from the E.U. ?
How many of their laws imposed on us could we dump ?
How Independent from them would the E.U. allow us to become ?
.

And how many of them are popular with the public? Can you think of a single EU inspired law that you would like to reverse?
Dirty beaches anyone????

 

[KM-Tiger]

It's common for a late swing to the status quo even if opinion polls don't reflect it.

Can't find a reference right now, but have seen some graphs that show it happens in virtually all referenda.

So leave probably need a ten point poll lead to be certain.

And yes, remaining won't be the status quo. Correct.

 

[KM-Tiger]

Can you think of a single EU inspired law that you would like to reverse?

Not reversed, but the Working time Directive should be re-examined. Particularly its effect on the NHS.

 

[quikshop]

.Let's assume Divine Intervention came down next week and EVERYONE voted out. 100%. Then next month UKIP took over.

The Almighty votes for UKIP

 

[Newchodge]

Not reversed, but the Working time Directive should be re-examined. Particularly its effect on the NHS.

Given that junior doctors are outside the remit of the 48 hour maximum working week, what part of the Directive do you think has a detrimental effect on the NHS?

 

[TODonnell]

If in doubt, look to self-interest.

Con:

- Yes, there will be an economic downturn if we leave the EU. Markets don't like instability.

- Yes, there will be bureaucratic upset, but I wonder if it's in anyone's interest to throw a spanner in the works of free trade and movement of persons on a day-to-day basis.

Pro:

- Markets rebound if there's a perception of value. An independent Britain long term could be a nice place to drop your loot, if it stops going down the road of socialist self-sabotage.

- Is secession a price worth paying to get away from Germany, which is actually running the EU, and is Britains' ancient enemy, and also to get away from the zombie economies amongst the rest of the members?

- Do we want to fight for Greece or Latvia if they do stupid something that invites invasion?

- Our gilded elite, who, as a class, tend to personally profit to EU handouts, have lied consistently about the EU project and are now just making stuff up to scare us.

- We can deport trouble makers.

My opinion: I would like to get away from this autocratic, zombie octopus. My tax money is being snuffled up by piggies who don't deserve it. The EU has not filed proper accounts in what, 14?, 20? years.

But, ah, that suits the dishonest media-manipulators who govern us just fine. The hyenas know their own kind: Lie, schmooze, soft-soap and when you retire from national politics you get a non-job with a 6 figure salary. Nice!

Just don't look behind the curtain.

 

[Scott-Copywriter]

Can't find a reference right now, but have seen some graphs that show it happens in virtually all referenda.

So leave probably need a ten point poll lead to be certain.

It does. I've seen the same graph. Historically, undecided voters in the few days prior to the referendum tend to split for remain by a factor of two to one, if I remember correctly.

Some pollsters have claimed that the late swing to the status quo might be worth a percentage point. Given everything I've studied myself, I'd expect that to be slightly higher. Perhaps 2-3%.

There are a few phone opinion polls out in the next 3 days, which are generally more accurate. If they all favour leave, I expect leave to win, and vise-versa.

I've also noticed that the Leave flotilla is out on the Thames today and is being met by Remain boats. Bob Geldof has also set off on his own boat armed with a huge sound system, and the leave boats have responded by firing a water hose at them.

I wish this was a joke. I thought "EdStone" was bad but this referendum has now descended into a diplomatic naval battle.

 

[KM-Tiger]

I've also noticed that the Leave flotilla is out on the Thames today

And so they should be.

Does anyone dispute the facts of what has happened to our fishing industry as a result of EU membership?

 

[Newchodge]

I accept that our fishing industry has been badly affected, but is that as a result of EU membership, or is it s a result of huge over-fishing and the need to conserve vanishing species?

 

[KM-Tiger]

Why is there any additional cost, that needs subsidising, in using a mobile in other EU countries? Same networks, same satellites, same companies, same costs.

No, transit between networks costs money.

So it's either paid for through roaming charges, or spread out over everyone.

 

[Cobby]

We may have the right to leave the club at a later date, but getting a referendum on the cards again would be very difficult, if possible at all.

Part of the Leave's campaign of dishonesty and misdirection is framing this referendum with a biblical end-times narrative and painting it as our last-ditch effort to escape, then convincing folk like ShirleyM that the EU is crumbling and that IT'LL TAKE US WITH IT!!!

When in reality the EU is okay, we're fine, we can vote remain and later on if the government (y''know, the people with a wholly better grasp on the facts than the public) feels it is best for us to leave, they can just go ahead and do that without a referendum. But that's far more boring and won't hold the attention of Leave voters.

 

[Deleted member 59730]

Does anyone dispute the facts of what has happened to our fishing industry as a result of EU membership?

What happened to our fishing industry is largely the result of UK government stupidity. They provided massive grants and loans in the 70s for the Scottish fleet to build boats far too big for sustainable fishing in UK waters. There were so many of these oversized boats that they came into Cornish waters and hoovered up fish in nets bigger than any Cornish boat could muster. And don't forget that the Cornish boats are big enough to fish off Ireland for a week at a time. The result of all this senseless over investment has been a decline in essential fish stocks which has needed EU action to try and control. The action taken would be no different if the UK government were in control of fisheries policy.

The mistake that the UK is still making is not differentiating between small sustainable boats and large trawlers. Would the UK enforcers in our waters suddenly see sense? The history suggests otherwise.

 

[Cobby]

Am I mistaken, or is the Chancellor of the Exchequer threatening the British people?

You are mistaken.

I am not surprised.

A hypothetical question...

Let's assume Divine Intervention came down next week and EVERYONE voted out. 100%
Then next month UKIP took over.

How many of our original laws could Nigel claw back from the E.U. ?
How many of their laws imposed on us could we dump ?
How Independent from them would the E.U. allow us to become ?

Given Nigel's EU crew and their penchant for not working or actively voting against the UK's interests, nobody can be entirely sure *what* he would do, although I think the consensus is "flounder".

 

[Newchodge]

You are mistaken.

I am not surprised.


Given Nigel's EU crew and their penchant for not working or actively voting against the UK's interests, nobody can be entirely sure *what* he would do, although I think the consensus is "flounder".

Don't you mean "flounder uncontrollably"?

 

[john1989]

Part of the Leave's campaign of dishonesty and misdirection is framing this referendum with a biblical end-times narrative and painting it as our last-ditch effort to escape, then convincing folk like ShirleyM that the EU is crumbling and that IT'LL TAKE US WITH IT!!!

When in reality the EU is okay, we're fine, we can vote remain and later on if the government (y''know, the people with a wholly better grasp on the facts than the public) feels it is best for us to leave, they can just go ahead and do that without a referendum. But that's far more boring and won't hold the attention of Leave voters.

If we don’t need a referendum, why should we bother with a general election? They, the people who know better than us peasants can just pick who’s turn it is next?


A referendum is part of being in a democracy. Democracy is a word you will be unfamiliar with being firmly pro-EU.

 

[Scott-Copywriter]

I'd recommend that everyone have a read through this regarding the Thames Brexit naval battle currently going on:

https://twitter.com/MichaelPDeacon

Not sure whether to laugh or cry.

 

[Cobby]

If we don’t need a referendum, why should we bother with a general election? They, the people who know better than us peasants can just pick who’s turn it is next?

A referendum is part of being in a democracy. Democracy is a word you will be unfamiliar with being firmly pro-EU.

Make up your mind, either we elect politicians democratically* to represent us, or we do everything ourselves. You can't pick and choose where your principles apply and where they don't, otherwise that's just you being disingenuous.

* we can argue this in another thread

 

[Newchodge]

Make up your mind, either we elect politicians democratically* to represent us, or we do everything ourselves. You can't pick and choose where your principles apply and where they don't, otherwise that's just you being disingenuous.

* we can argue this in another thread

I recall, during the last referendum (yes, I am that old) politicians arguing that holding a referendum is counter-democratic. We elect our politicians to make our decisions for us. That is what our 'democracy' means.

 

[Scott-Copywriter]

Some interesting facts regarding Nigel Farage and UKIP MEPs:

When MEPs take a vote, it is as likely as not that UKIP’s energetic leader Nigel Farage will not be anywhere except in the European Parliament. He has missed 447 votes in three years, almost half the total. When MEPs are ranked by the number of votes for which they have been present, he comes 740th out of 753. The attendance record shows that there were 47 days when the Parliament was sitting without the benefit of his presence. Yet his attendance records compares well with that of Paul Nuttall, UKIP MEP for North West England, who is down as having missed 67 sitting days and 456 votes.

Between them, the party’s 12 MEPs have tabled no reports, 11 have tabled no opinions, nine have signed no written declarations or motions, and seven have tabled no amendments to reports ranking them at the bottom of the pile out of all 753 MEPs.

It could be argued that given that UKIP MEPs have better things to do than hang around in Brussels, since their mission is to get Britain out of the EU – an argument that would stand up better if they had not trousered £11.5 million in salaries, staffing and office costs. And that is not counting their expenses.

As for Farage's support for the UK fishing industry:

Over the three years that Nigel Farage was a member of the European Parliament Fisheries Committee, he attended one out of 42 meetings.

In 2013, Nigel Farage was again present but chose not to vote on the part of the reform of the CFP that introduces an obligation on governments to give more fishing quota to sustainable fishermen who contribute the most to the local, coastal economies. This would see the government giving more fishing quota to local, low impact fishing fleets, such as the fishermen featured in UKIP’s poster.

Of course, they do want us out of the EU, but you would expect them to be mature and work within the system they are elected to fight for Britain's interests, instead of throwing their toys out of the pram and protesting through inaction for their own political self-interest whilst pocketing £11.5million in salaries and office costs, no?

 

[john1989]

Make up your mind, either we elect politicians democratically* to represent us, or we do everything ourselves. You can't pick and choose where your principles apply and where they don't, otherwise that's just you being disingenuous.

* we can argue this in another thread

Whether we are controlled by Westminster or the EU, I firmly believe that some things should be put to the public.

 

[Kevintecg]

Definitely voting leave. The EU has been an expensive experiment which favours the rich. I remember all too well Black Wednesday when we were forced out of ERM which was all part of this out of date juggernaut, It's undemocratic, cumbersome and doesn't work. The effect of immigration is felt all over UK but mainly by the poorest in society. People may think I'm racist when I say we should look after our own first, I don't really care I've been called worse. Then there's the Turkish issue with more and more allowed to come to our shores every year. The truth is this is about taking back control of our own country and sending a message to the ruling elite that we will be taken notice of. There's nothing the EU does for us that we can't do ourselves however I'm not one of those who wants to see the collapse of the EU. On the contrary I want to see them prosper, they have their destiny we have ours and I wish them well.

 

[Scott-Copywriter]

Definitely voting leave. The EU has been an expensive experiment which favours the rich. I remember all too well Black Wednesday when we were forced out of ERM which was all part of this out of date juggernaut, It's undemocratic, cumbersome and doesn't work. The effect of immigration is felt all over UK but mainly by the poorest in society. People may think I'm racist when I say we should look after our own first, I don't really care I've been called worse. Then there's the Turkish issue with more and more allowed to come to our shores every year. The truth is this is about taking back control of our own country and sending a message to the ruling elite that we will be taken notice of. There's nothing the EU does for us that we can't do ourselves however I'm not one of those who wants to see the collapse of the EU. On the contrary I want to see them prosper, they have their destiny we have ours and I wish them well.

It gives me a migraine when someone new enters this thread and drags misinformation back up which was already discussed at length and put to bed about 10 pages back.

1). There is no Turkish issue. They are not joining (or at least not until the year 3000 at their current rate of progress).

2). We already have control over many elements of our country, including the right to leave at any time in future. Even if we do leave, we still not be able to do whatever we want due to cooperation and responsibility regarding wider national relationships.

3). In the event of Brexit, more powers will be handed to the ruling elite of the right-wing Tory government than they've had in decades.

4). The EU has a single market of 500 million consumers with a GDP almost 6 times larger than ours. We cannot "do that for ourselves".

 

[Newchodge]

'The truth is that this is taking back control'

That is the statement that really gives me the willies. We won't get back control. Boris Johnson will get control and he will destroy every aspect of public service in our country; every aspect of society, following on from Thatcher's efforts. That is the only result from a Brexit vote. Complete and utter disaster for the poor and disadvantaged, misery for the middle classes and Utopia for those with money.

 

[Deleted member 59730]

1). There is no Turkish issue. They are not joining (or at least not until the year 3000 at their current rate of progress).

Turkey have been applying to join the EU since 1967 and they are further away than ever.

As an aside even before the UK entered the EEC we had serious business dealings with Turkey. The BMC engines factory making tractor and taxi engines, (Started by my great uncle,) was moved to Turkey in 1964. For decades London taxis used Turkish made engines.

 

[Cobby]

Whether we are controlled by Westminster or the EU, I firmly believe that some things should be put to the public.

If you'd like to justify how you think the system should work where you can decide upon which things you'd like to have a vote on, and which you can leave to your elected representatives, and how you plan to vote in a remarkably complex system like that, please go ahead, although possibly start another thread titled "how I think our democracy should work" and do it there.