Electric Vehicle. Or are you a heathen?

Paul Norman

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Apr 8, 2010
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Electric Vehicles.

It feels as though society has now totally accepted that digging rare stuff from the ground to make batteries is fine, and that the whole life environmental impact of an EV versus a modern, fuel efficient, diesel is definitely a bit leap forward. Such a leap we can conveniently gloss over infra structure problems, and I am informed I must now park my car at the community centre where the only charging point is, and where it will get nicked twice a day?

Yes?
 
Electric Vehicles.

It feels as though society has now totally accepted that digging rare stuff from the ground to make batteries is fine, and that the whole life environmental impact of an EV versus a modern, fuel efficient, diesel is definitely a bit leap forward.
Yes?

Not all of society.
 
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thetiger2015

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Apparently, the infrastructure is coming. On street charging will be an option soon but it's going to cost billions to install these little chargers next to every space. Also, they're going to be vandalised and reversed in to all day long. The cost will just be passed on to the consumer/tax payer.

The mockups I've seen also neglect to point out, they're putting these charging stations between lampposts. Could they not....use the lamppost? Instead of creating a whole new set of machines?

Whoever comes up with these things does not live in the real world. They live in a toy town. Everything in squares, everything with nice 90 degree edges and a society that just loves to 'charge up' every morning.

Also, nobody seems to have noticed that these street charging docks are going to consume energy too: https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/10-000-new-charging-points-amid-surge-in-electric-cars-b73t8r6gc

The environmental impact will be catastrophic. Especially if these things stay lit up all night, glowing away, buzzing through the early hours....
 
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D

Deleted member 335660

Electric Vehicles.

It feels as though society has now totally accepted that digging rare stuff from the ground to make batteries is fine, and that the whole life environmental impact of an EV versus a modern, fuel efficient, diesel is definitely a bit leap forward. Such a leap we can conveniently gloss over infra structure problems, and I am informed I must now park my car at the community centre where the only charging point is, and where it will get nicked twice a day?

Yes?
Now now, you know in your heart it makes sense.

Firstly we won’t be at the mercy of all those rich Oil sheiks. Secondly you can plug in at home instead of having to find a petrol station when it’s pouring down with rain or ice cold. Finally, you won’t know what hit you when your in hospital recovering from an RTA because you never heard the car coming.

Meanwhile I will drive happily drive my diesel around looking for a fuel station as there are no plugin points for miles around here.
 
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The whole 'no fossil fuels by 2030' us deeply flawed and hasn't been thought through at any level.

I fully expect a huge u-turn.

I recently spent several hours in a Tesla whose owner is a full convert

Despite which, he freely informed me that his £70k car was a little bit rubbish (he does love the tax benefit though)

Build quality is more Renault than Mercedes - irs an ipad with a cheap body around it

Loads of annoying lights flashing everywhere

Range us severely compromised as soon as you start using the power, or too many accessories

We had to boost charge - all the charging points were in use so it took us about 25 minutes

I'll definitely remain a dinosaur for some time
 
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WAIT FOR IT! I can see a future where 'Visitors' will ask "Do you have a Charging Station, for my Electric Vehicle?" - And, then become 'Upset' when told "NO!" It will be like having Vegetarians arrive for a 'Steak Night!'

The future is here!
I've been advised by my holiday let agency to inform visitors that they can't use the domestic supply to re-charge their vehicles. Apparently, some have tried.
 
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Has anyone asked where all the electricity will come from to charge all these EV’s up?
No, they have not!

If every vehicle including trucks and busses and trains, are to run on electricity, the grid will have to double in capacity and power generation must be trebled.
Hydrogen.
This is the only viable answer. The problem is that we are a long way from implementing this answer.

I visited the Daimler-Benz research centre near Stuttgart nearly 30 years ago and I asked about hydrogen-powered vehicles as they had a couple of prototypes there. The young guns there said it would be at least ten years. Ten years ago I spoke to someone involved in the hydrogen bus initiative in Berlin and asked the same question - answer: ten years.

Last I heard, it will be at least ten years before you can tank up with hydrogen all over Europe.
 
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Didn't come to light that in fact if you take the cradle to grave of electric cars and all their parts its no greener than petrol or diesel anyway?

Lies, damn lies and statistics

There are so many variables and assumptions that there can be no real answer

The doubters will prove themselves right, as will the evangelists
 
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UKSBD

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  • Dec 30, 2005
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    Are we building a country of Luddites here

    Change is often repelled by not seeing the total long term future, yes at present there are problems but as with all new technology, solutions are normal very quick just look at the last 18 months

    It's the batteries that are key rather than the actual cars.

    If we get to the stage where they are small and light enough that they are interchangeable it will be great.

    Rather than pull in at a filling station and wait to recharge you just buy a 50, 100 or 200 mile top up and just swap it for your existing one
     
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    Paul Norman

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    Apr 8, 2010
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    Now now, you know in your heart it makes sense.

    Firstly we won’t be at the mercy of all those rich Oil sheiks. Secondly you can plug in at home instead of having to find a petrol station when it’s pouring down with rain or ice cold. Finally, you won’t know what hit you when your in hospital recovering from an RTA because you never heard the car coming.

    Meanwhile I will drive happily drive my diesel around looking for a fuel station as there are no plugin points for miles around here.


    Alas, I cannot plug it in at home. And the village, I am told with much excitement, is going to get a charging point.

    One. Charging. Point.

    So from time to time, if I don't mind parking my car at the community centre, I can charge it.

    I have a new diesel on order
     
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    Paul Norman

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    The future is here!
    I've been advised by my holiday let agency to inform visitors that they can't use the domestic supply to re-charge their vehicles. Apparently, some have tried.


    This is an interesting aspect. Likewise, if you arrive at a campsite in an EV you cannot use the electric hook up to charge the vehicle. You have to leave you electric powered camper van at the Morrison's car park to charge and, as people get very angry at people sleeping in camper vans at Morrison's you have to, erm, well, I am not sure.
     
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    Paul Norman

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    Are we building a country of Luddites here

    Change is often repelled by not seeing the total long term future, yes at present there are problems but as with all new technology, solutions are normal very quick just look at the last 18 months


    I don't think so. But I do think it makes sense to challenge how green EV's really are. And it does make sense to push back against the unhelpful claim that if you can't park on, or near, your house you can just plug in at work.

    Of course, the infrastructure will improve, provided you and I pay for that. But will they ever be green? Are EV's really the answer?
     
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    Has anyone asked where all the electricity will come from to charge all these EV’s up?
    There are potentially different sources than the current national grid. Locally produced power.
    Are EV's really the answer?
    They are the answer as they were years ago in the days of trolley buses. The idea of individual vehicles weighing a ton or more to carry one person to work is really past its sell by date.
     
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    Are we building a country of Luddites here

    Change is often repelled by not seeing the total long term future, yes at present there are problems but as with all new technology, solutions are normal very quick just look at the last 18 months

    I'm not sufficiently engaged to be a luddite - just a mildly cynical bystander who is happy to let others be early adopters and beta testers.

    And who has just bought a 3 - litre petrol car.

    I fully accept that fossil fuels aren't the future, and that my next purchase (some years away) will probably be alternative energy

    I remain convinced, however, that the 2030 thing is deeply flawed
     
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    kulture

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    What a stunningly myopic bunch of luddites. One dimensional thinking at its best, alive and well right here in the heart of uk business.
    I agree. I am surprised at the bias here.

    I recently bought an electric car. It is a Kia. The build quality is excellent. It has a range of 280 miles. I charge it when it drops below 50% and only up to 80% to keep the batteries in great condition. So I charge it about twice a week. I use an ordinary 13 amp plug. It charges at 10amps which is little more than an electric heater.
    So for me I never have to find a public charging point. I just plug it in when get home and leave it overnight. No need to queue for a garage or spend 5 or 10 minutes filling up .

    I get that if you have nowhere to park off road then it is much less attractive. I agree that more infrastructure is needed to support this, but it’s not the doom and gloom depicted here.
     
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    I have perhaps become well known on this forum for my views in opposition of electric vehicles. However, I don't think I have ever said I don't think electric vehicles are good - just that its not a viable mainstream option for the majority of the population. I do not oppose electric vehicles as an option for some people, I oppose the government suggesting they will ban production of combustion engines for the purposes of political point scoring and without any suggestion of a viable alternative.

    Does this make me a 'luddite'? Or perhaps I'm 'myopic'? Interesting that those who have descended to namecalling do not provide any context or considered analysis with their assertions.

    I recently bought an electric car. It is a Kia. The build quality is excellent. It has a range of 280 miles. I charge it when it drops below 50% and only up to 80% to keep the batteries in great condition. So I charge it about twice a week. I use an ordinary 13 amp plug. It charges at 10amps which is little more than an electric heater.
    So for me I never have to find a public charging point. I just plug it in when get home and leave it overnight. No need to queue for a garage or spend 5 or 10 minutes filling up .

    You have succinctly demonstrated here why electric works for you, and that's great! Sounds like you are one of many who are able to embrace this new technology and it suits your current lifestyle and situation.

    However, there are millions and millions of people for whom the situation does not allow adoption, and no amount of investment in infrastructure will really change that.

    You can charge at home. Many can't.
    I'm guessing you don't regularly drive more than 200-250 miles in one go. Many do.

    If we move aside the wildly innacurate estimates about the carbon footprint of electric vehicle production and electricity generation for a minute....and if we ignore the fact that not enough cobalt exists in the world to keep producing batteries.....the fact remains that electric vehicles do not suit the needs or the lifestyles of a huge portion of the population, and never will most likely.

    There's the people who live in flats, or houses without driveways who often have to park their car well away from the front of their house. I live in a terraced house which has a car park at the end of the block of 4. I have a space but its too far from my house to reasonably charge a vehicle there. That would leave me to use the charging point in the town which isn't too far away, but there's 6 charging points which are often not working, occupied or otherwise. My town has a population of about 6,000. Maybe as many as 1,000 couldn't charge at their house. Even if every space in the public car park had a charger at it, it still couldn't serve everyone. Also the public car park is walking distance to my house. Its not walking distance to many.

    There's people who regularly have to drive reasonable distances, and on a time limit. On wednesday I drove from Birmingham to my house in Perthshire (350 miles), which is a drive I do a lot. I stopped for lunch in Penrith for a total of 10 minutes, and I had to get back at a certain time which wouldn't have allowed for a 30 minute stop for a charge. Half a tank of diesel and I wasn't worried at all about running out of dino juice.

    Then we have commercial users. Think about a guy who runs a joinery company - his business has 6 vans which some of the youngsters who work for him take home at the end of the night and drive direct to the job in the morning. He gets 2 phone calls first thing in the morning with "boss I forgot to charge the van last night so I can't get to the job. I will be an hour late".
    The other 4 vans have been taken home by lads who can't charge at their homes, so its pot luck if the rest of those have been charged.

    Commercial users who tow regularly. Enough said.

    There's people who will never put their children in an electric vehicle because of the extreme risk of thermal runaway in the event of a crash.

    Finally, electric vehicles will never suit the needs of the police or many of the emergency services. What are they supposed to buy when internal combustion engines have been banned?

    I live next to Gleneagles hotel, who currently have a fleet of electric Jaguars for ferrying delegates down to Glasgow for COP26. They have a gigantic bank of diesel generators currently installed for charging them....

    So I'm not saying electric vehicles aren't good. I'm also not suggesting the world doesn't need to make a change of some kind, but banning something without a viable alternative being available is what is myopic. Fortunately its one of these "promises" made by politicians which will never be realised as by the time it has come around we'll be in someone else's term, and those in power can blame the short-sightedness of the previous encumbent - they obviously didn't think it through when they made that promise!

    Instead, we need to come up with genuinely good options, and people will naturally chose the option that works for them! Toyota (who were on of the earliest to get into EV, and have matured their tech nicely) are doing a lot of work on hydrogen propulsion. JCB are also producting hydrogen powered commercial machinery. Porsche (I think?) have been putting a lot of money into producing synthetic fuel.

    We need to explore multiple options to produce viable alternatives, rather than a blinkered vision of an electric future which ignores all the facts just because loads of people have invested loads of money in it and are now "pot committed". Any time I tell someone I don't like Teslas (there are many reasons for this), they always lament about how fast they accelerate, thinking that will convince me (a motorbike guy) that they're great. What I've come to realise is that everyone mentions this because its literally the only good thing about them. They accelerate fast, so we can ignore all the other features and pretend that people buy cars based on how fast they accelerate....
     
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    UKSBD

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  • Dec 30, 2005
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    I have perhaps become well known on this forum for my views in opposition of electric vehicles. However, I don't think I have ever said I don't think electric vehicles are good - just that its not a viable mainstream option for the majority of the population....

    "Snipped rest of info"

    You missed out what is probably the most important.

    The people who can't afford to drive around in new cars, the people who buy 2nd hand 7 year+ old cars, the people who drive sub £1000 cars, the people who have to do their own repairs.

    Is it even possible to buy a used EV for under £1,000?
    If an EV starts playing up can Joe Blogs get it repaired for under £200?

    What is going to happen to these people?

    We need those cheap Chinese EV's as soon as possible to have any chance
     
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