Electric Vehicle. Or are you a heathen?

[Gordon - Commercial Finance]

You missed out what is probably the most important.

The people who can't afford to drive around in new cars, the people who buy 2nd hand 7 year+ old cars, the people who drive sub £1000 cars, the people who have to do their own repairs.

Is it even possible to buy a used EV for under £1,000?
If an EV starts playing up can Joe Blogs get it repaired for under £200?

What is going to happen to these people?

We need those cheap Chinese EV's as soon as possible to have any chance

Good point. And by the time an EV is that second hand, the range is like....8 miles??

I get to see a lot of finance quotes from clients, and they will often send me the dealers PCP quote for me to beat. This then shows me what residual value the in-house finance puts on their cars. If I get a Porsche finance quote on a Cayenne or something, they will usually say the car will be worth about 45% of what it is purchased for after 3 years and 30k miles.

I saw a quote from Tesla Finance recently and they valued their own car at 25% of purchase price after 3 years and 30k miles.

 

[thetiger2015]

Is it even possible to buy a used EV for under £1,000?
If an EV starts playing up can Joe Blogs get it repaired for under £200?

What is going to happen to these people?

We need those cheap Chinese EV's as soon as possible to have any chance

Car ownership is changing. They're moving people to the leasing model at the moment and then you'll be moved to the daily rentals. A car park full of EVs on the outside of every town. You will use an electric bus around town to get to work and, if you need to travel out of town, you will use the bus to get to the car park, tap some digits, show your COVID pass and voila...your EV will crawl up to you and unlock the doors. Have a safe trip Human 882379T

You can alternatively use the e-shuttle (train) between cities but you'll need an EV to reach the suburbs (notice my American twang).

This is all wonderful...if you're a techy city dweller but for us country folk, it's horrifying. The idea that we won't be able to just nip to the shops in one of our cars. The 4x4 if it's snowing? The soft top in the summer? All gone. You will own non of these things. They will be owned by corporations, who will charge you for things like premium upgrades or additional mileage requirements.

Just as phones have become rental. TV is rental. Cars are becoming rental. Houses and flats are now moving toward almost exclusively rental. The poorest are priced out completely, they can rent a little time from the rich person but they'll never be allowed to own things. Even food is segmented by wealth. If you're wealthy, you can afford vegetables from the organic farm. Poor? No, you can have the beans at the back of the shelf.

 

[Paul Norman]

What a stunningly myopic bunch of luddites. One dimensional thinking at its best, alive and well right here in the heart of uk business.

I think it is the need of the EV advocates to drop so early in the thread into rather insulting comment is part of why I doubt there is robust fact to back up the idea.

The idea that we are just not willing to change is a misunderstanding.

The idea that I am willing to buy a £40k asset and park it in the community centre car park to charge is silly.

I, and many of those currently holding back, are not just willing to move, we are looking forward to it.

But right now I have not seen robust evidence that EV's - in the current format - are the answer. At least not by themselves. But listen to me, trying to debate, when all I need to do is call you a name.

 

[Paul Norman]

A strong point made above is that car ownership is changing.

One model, which seems to work, is the car club idea. Obviously, that might be a challenge in some locations, but even here, in a semi rural village, I reckon it could be made to work.

My son lived in the city for 4 years, and had no need to own a car at any point.

That, of course, changes the situation - and already the car club has a number of EV's. I see no basic reason why it couldn't have all EV's right now.

 

[bodgitt&scarperLTD]

A strong point made above is that car ownership is changing.

One model, which seems to work, is the car club idea. Obviously, that might be a challenge in some locations, but even here, in a semi rural village, I reckon it could be made to work.

My son lived in the city for 4 years, and had no need to own a car at any point.

That, of course, changes the situation - and already the car club has a number of EV's. I see no basic reason why it couldn't have all EV's right now.

I know a woman who used to work for one of these car clubs. One day, another woman got in one and tried to drive it way up north somewhere. The inevitable happened, and it ran out of power. She abandoned it and called a cab.

Tasked with getting this vehicle back to base, what would you do? Would you get a lift there, charm the loan of an extension lead and some power from the house in front of which it had been abandoned, and then when it had finally charged it enough to move, make it to the nearest charging point and sit there waiting for it to charge further? And then, when it ran low again on the way home, find another charging point (twice?) Taking over 16 hours to 'recover' this car?

Or would you call a recovery truck?

You all can guess what happened. Welcome to the wonderful world of 'charitable social enterprise' funded by local councils. It's not their money... but it was once yours, and they are spunking it up the wall!

 

[Paul Norman]

I know a woman who used to work for one of these car clubs. One day, another woman got in one and tried to drive it way up north somewhere. The inevitable happened, and it ran out of power. She abandoned it and called a cab.

Tasked with getting this vehicle back to base, what would you do? Would you get a lift there, charm the loan of an extension lead and some power from the house in front of which it had been abandoned, and then when it had finally charged it enough to move, make it to the nearest charging point and sit there waiting for it to charge further? And then, when it ran low again on the way home, find another charging point (twice?) Taking over 16 hours to 'recover' this car?

Or would you call a recovery truck?

You all can guess what happened. Welcome to the wonderful world of 'charitable social enterprise' funded by local councils. It's not their money... but it was once yours, and they are spunking it up the wall!

It is certainly a challenge. On EV trips, I think you need an app that tells you where charging points are, and you need to factor in significant amounts of time to use them - it took my son a full day to drive from Newcastle to Kent.

But of course we need to think differently. I wouldn't attempt that trip in an EV, personally, unless it could do it in one go - some possibly might now.

Maybe, EV's are great for shorter trips, but not really practical for longer ones.

I have just completed 600 miles in my van. I need to go and fill it up. See you in 5 minutes!

 

[Gordon - Commercial Finance]

a £40k asset

A car is not an asset!

(I know, that’s not the point….)

 

[Ozzy]

Could they not....use the lamppost? Instead of creating a whole new set of machines?

On one of my rare trips to London I saw this, cars plugged into lamp posts and I thought at the time it made perfect sense, for street parking situations anyway. I have no idea how they work in regards to billing, but from an infrastructure perspective it made sense and I was impressed.

where’s £28 billion of lost fuel duty going to magically appear from?

I am one of those people who has a company car, hybrid, and was attracted by the tax benefit. My lease ends this month and purely because of supply chain issues I've extended the lease for another year...but I foresee a huge hike in BIK coming to replace the deficit in BIK. It happened in years past, I remember a huge push in diesel with benefits associated with it. Now diesel is the big bad enemy and a push in EV, and it'll be something else again in 15 or so years time.

As a business owner and someone who needs a car, I cannot remember the last time I actually owned a car (can't see the logic to purchase a heavily depreciating asset), so as I lease I go with what is the most financially viable at the time that also meets my needs. Right now BIK works with EV but that will change and when it does my decisions will probably change too.

A strong point made above is that car ownership is changing.

This is my view too. I did try to go EV because I just like it, I like the silence to stealth run over people for sport, and I like the gadgets. However, as much as I actually did like the Jaguar i-Pace my lifestyle requires me to sometimes drive across fields and tow a horse trailer. So I ended up with a 4x4 PHEV I can drive to work and back on electric but kick in the fossil fuels to tow.
My wife does lots of short journeys and we have a 32AMP car charge on the house, so she's switching to EV next. It would work for us but I've advised others not to go EV after chatting to them about their lifestyle, and if they do many journeys especially long ones outside of main towns and cities - stick with fossil fuels IMHO.

True story; I did drive my PHEV to Devon once and took my 13amp charger with me. Plugged it in at the site we were staying at and blew their fuses. Oh how they all laughed and laughed...

 

[Paul Norman]

A car is not an asset!

(I know, that’s not the point….)

A fair and reasonable hit, though.

 

[Fagin2021]

It's strange how these discussions become 'four legs good, two legs bad' arguments so quickly.

EVs suit the transport requirements of some people, for others (in their current form) they don't. That's it.

Surely it's just sensible to continue improving EV battery technology, infrastructure and incentives until more and more people view them as a practical and financially desirable alternative to petrol/diesel. Maybe one day we'll abandon traditional vehicles because 'you just can't find a petrol station!'

Instead, we have politicians obsessed with the need to be seen 'doing something' and setting arbitrary targets without any consideration for the practicalities or consequences.

Long term it might be wiser to explore technologies that don't require people to run around in little metal boxes to do whatever it is that they want to do.

 

[Ian J]

The idea that I am willing to buy a £40k asset and park it in the community centre car park to charge is silly.

I haven't taken much notice of EV charging points and the protocols surrounding the use of them but are the owners driving off when their cars are fuelled or do they use them as parking spaces and leave the car there for hours whilst they go off for the afternoon

 

[Ozzy]

they use them as parking spaces and leave the car there for hours whilst they go off for the afternoon

It varies from place to place.
The industrial estate where we are based is "off grid", the whole park is powered by a bio energy mass unit that the farmer who owns the land runs. He supplies our power for all 40 or so businesses on the estate, and has surplus to the grid. The park has 8x EV charging points and I leave mine connected all day to one as the parking spot because there is always a couple spare every day.

At some hotels, one near MK in particular I recall, starts charging you £5 per hour parking fee if you leave your car connected after it reaches full charge. The £5 p/h is higher rate than the main parking charge for the car park - so incentivise you to move your car when it's charged.

In town centre parking, it's treated like any other parking space but with a plug. You pay your normal parking fee (if there is one) and leave your car there whilst you shop.

 

[UKSBD]

In town centre parking, it's treated like any other parking space but with a plug. You pay your normal parking fee (if there is one) and leave your car there whilst you shop.

Can people park in them even if they don't need a charge?

 

[Ozzy]

Can people park in them even if they don't need a charge?

No, you get a penalty notice if you do

 

[Mark T Jones]

A strong point made above is that car ownership is changing.

.

Funnily enough I was pondering this whilst walking the dog.

A little like when plastic straws became a no-go, people started to look for new straws - whereas in 90% of cases, the real best alternative was no straws.

Perhaps the central debate should focus on transport rather than EV versus fossil fuels.

 

[Paul Norman]

It's strange how these discussions become 'four legs good, two legs bad' arguments so quickly.

EVs suit the transport requirements of some people, for others (in their current form) they don't. That's it.

Surely it's just sensible to continue improving EV battery technology, infrastructure and incentives until more and more people view them as a practical and financially desirable alternative to petrol/diesel. Maybe one day we'll abandon traditional vehicles because 'you just can't find a petrol station!'

Instead, we have politicians obsessed with the need to be seen 'doing something' and setting arbitrary targets without any consideration for the practicalities or consequences.

Long term it might be wiser to explore technologies that don't require people to run around in little metal boxes to do whatever it is that they want to do.

I concur.

Today, it is hard to know whether 2030 is the right deadline. EV's are getting better on almost a daily basis. Ranges are increasing - quite decently, in fact. The main thing that is growing slower than I hoped is infrastructure and solutions for people who can't have charging points at their homes.

Secondly, other solutions need exploring. I think that replacing ICE cars with EVs on a one for one basis is not the answer, personally. I think a more holistic rethink is needed, and a lot of debate and thinking outside of boxes will produce those.

One of which is your last paragraph. Maybe we just don't need a car each anymore.

 

[UKSBD]

No, you get a penalty notice if you do

What's to stop an EV driver just parking in one, connecting the charger, parking there all day, even if they are 90% full? (basically just using the parking space even though they don't really need the charger)

 

[Paul Norman]

Funnily enough I was pondering this whilst walking the dog.

A little like when plastic straws became a no-go, people started to look for new straws - whereas in 90% of cases, the real best alternative was no straws.

Perhaps the central debate should focus on transport rather than EV versus fossil fuels.

Totally this.

Already, people like me, for a range of reasons, some of which I can take no credit for, have reduced our car use from 50000 miles a year to under 10000. That, combined with the fact that my current car does 50 mpg instead of 25, has made a very large reduction in carbon footprint. To match that now, I, and 3 other people, would need to stop motoring altogether.

And maybe that is possible.

 

[Ozzy]

Maybe we just don't need a car each anymore.

I see this with the increase in hop'n'stop cars on major towns and cities working really well. Just rent a car for a few minutes/hours as you need one, I would embrace that myself if I lived in such a location. It make sense for economical, environmental, and congestion reasons in my head.
For more rural, and with the increasing stupid costs of home ownership, children living at home longer means more cars per household in those circumstances.

basically just using the parking space even though they don't really need the charger

In theory possible but would be pointless of the owner doing so, as you still pay your parking charges whether you use a EV space or not.
I have a blue badge because sometimes I'm unable to walk properly. When I'm having a bad day I park in a disabled spot and use my badge, when I'm having a good day I don't. In principle, EV drivers are expected to do the same with EV charging bays. I've not seen anyone myself parked in an EV and not be charging a car to be fair, but doesn't mean it doesn't happen. Like people parking in children bays at the supermarket when shopping alone without kids in tow.

 

[MikeJ]

On one of my rare trips to London I saw this, cars plugged into lamp posts and I thought at the time it made perfect sense, for street parking situations anyway.

In general, lamp posts aren't next to the road anymore, they're on the opposite side of the pavement. You'd need to trail the charging cable across the pavement to charge a car.

 

[Ozzy]

You'd need to trail the charging cable across the pavement to charge a car.

Well that clearly won't work (vision of "Have you suffered a trip of fall from an EV charger? Call us on...")
The one's I saw were all along the edge of a park area where the lamp lit the park and the path.

 

[Gordon - Commercial Finance]

Maybe we just don't need a car each anymore.

We do.

When I lived in Glasgow city centre, I didn't need or want a car. (I couldn't have one anyway due to driving offences when I was young and stupid making insurance unreasonably expensive)

I don't live rurally by any means, but in a small town. I need a car for my job, for myself, for my kids. I cannot get by without one if I want to lead a normal life. I could do my weekly shop in the co-op, but it is prohibitively expensive to do so and I don't want to clog up Tesco delivery slots for people who really need them, so I do a weekly click and collect in the car up in Perth.

If my kids want to see their grandparents (they do, and I want them to), it would take 3-4 hours to get there by public transport and the same to get home.

I have got by for the last 2 months just with my partner's car when I need it and because she walks to work from our house, she doesn't often need it. However she's changing job next month and will have a commute down to Stirling, so she will have her car at work every day. This is what has prompted me to get myself a car again and we're back to being a 2 car household. 2 diesel cars I might add.

If my girlfriend was so inclined she could probably cope with an EV for the commute back and forth, as long as she could charge it at work...but her diesel mini costs nothing to keep, next to nothing to run, so why would she go spend a fortune on an EV now?

 

[Deleted member 59730]

In the rural village where we used to live 0ver 20 years ago there were 2 cars picking up their kids from the primary school. Maybe 5 cars picking up from the comprehensive. Drove through the village the other day and there was major traffic chaos outside both schools. Many of the cars were 4wd.

 

[MikeJ]

We'll not replace my wife's car. We don't really need two cars now, but we've got them and keep them until her car needs replacing. Then we won't replace it. Occasionally both cars are out, but only because we can - we could generally work around one car, and have bikes for when the car is use.

 

[UKSBD]

In the last 8 years my wife's car has done about 2,000 miles (Less than 250 miles a year).
She still couldn't do without it though

 

[simon field]

What a stunningly myopic bunch of luddites. One dimensional thinking at its best, alive and well right here in the heart of uk business.

I think you know you’re kidding yourself.

 

[Ian J]

In the last 8 years my wife's car has done about 2,000 miles (Less than 250 miles a year).
She still couldn't do without it though

Surely a taxi would be much more cost effective

 

[UKSBD]

Surely a taxi would be much more cost effective

Yeah, I worked it out once at £57 a mile

It's her security blanket though

 

[alan1302]

Yeah, I worked it out once at £57 a mile

It's her security blanket though

So she could do without it but doesn't want to?

 

[Mark T Jones]

So she could do without it but doesn't want to?

And why not?

Having a car isn't the problem - it doesn't emit anything stood in the driveway.

The easiest problem to address as individuals (properly motivated) is that of reducing emissions by traveling less, car sharing, cycling etc etc

 

[MikeJ]

Since giving up work, I'm cycling more. Mainly for exercise, but I'm trying to get into the habit of cycling to the shops. Clearly I'm not going to do a "big shop" on my bike, but if I just need a few bits and bobs then I'll try to use the bike.

 

[Gordon - Commercial Finance]

Since giving up work, I'm cycling more. Mainly for exercise, but I'm trying to get into the habit of cycling to the shops. Clearly I'm not going to do a "big shop" on my bike, but if I just need a few bits and bobs then I'll try to use the bike.

I do a lot of cycling (not on the roads, never on the roads) to the office and back and to see friends.

Can’t get my two kids on the bicycle though….

 

[UKSBD]

So she could do without it but doesn't want to?

No, it’s her security blanket

 

[MikeJ]

I do a lot of cycling (not on the roads, never on the roads) to the office and back and to see friends.

Can’t get my two kids on the bicycle though….

I can get to a largish Tesco and a Sainsburys without going far on the roads. The limit becomes what I can put in my rucksack/panniers to get home. And no eggs.

 

[Mark T Jones]

½

I do a lot of cycling (not on the roads, never on the roads) to the office and back and to see friends.

Can’t get my two kids on the bicycle though….

When I lived in Surrey I hated cycling on roads - loads of potholes and aways some d-head driving up your @rse.

Having moved just 12 miles into hampshire it's like a different world, I hardly ever go offroad now.

To reiterate the point though, real change will come from everyone making small changes, rather than waiting for 'them' to do something

 

[Paul Norman]

I would quite like an electric scooter, though.

I would use that a bit, and that would reduce my car usage slightly.

However, I am not sure it would be safe to use one on the roads, and they are illegal in the UK unless you hire one.

 

[Ian J]

I would quite like an electric scooter, though.

However, I am not sure it would be safe to use one on the roads, and they are illegal in the UK unless you hire one.

We've just returned from a fortnight in Playa Blanca, Lanzarote and the bloody things are everywhere - roads, pavements, promenade with many of them carrying two adults and they are a real hazard

 

[Fagin2021]

½
To reiterate the point though, real change will come from everyone making small changes, rather than waiting for 'them' to do something

Gonna need more than taking your empties down the bottle-bank to fix it. Or even buying an EV.

 

[Mark T Jones]

Gonna need more than taking your empties down the bottle-bank to fix it. Or even buying an EV.

Lots of little changes

 

[Gordon - Commercial Finance]

Lots of little changes

Us individuals making lots of little changes will make negligible difference.

Can’t remember the figures but something like 71% of the worlds harmful emissions come from 10 giant companies.